It is more than a little intimidating to post a question that is to be pondered by the long time experts of the legend. But I guess that is just how we learn.
Im curious about something that Dr Glover describes in The Holmes Manuscript. Waltz covered his mine with timbers he sawed and cut them laying them in there criss crossing. Where did he get these timbers, trees? Where did he find these trees? Wouldnt these timbers be in pretty bad shape after all these years especially covered in rocks and dirt. I guess that would depend on the kind of timber he used. I know in planting fence posts as teen for my father that even pressur treated posts that are "guarenteed" for 15 years rarely even last 10 and I have seen some go after 5. On a farm we planted posts so often on our acreage, it seemed that was what my father and I did for recreation. Also waltz spoke of a trap that would kill anyone that found the mine by accident. Any thoughts on what this might have been?
I aplogize in advance if any of the questions have been answered before.
sincerely woodreau71
waltz covered his mine??
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woodreau71
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Joe Ribaudo
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Waltz the Logger?
Woodreau,
That's an interesting question, in that it might spark a little debate.
It seems to me, that the answer to your questions can only be found with the person who first put forth that story. If you believe that Dick Holmes
had the conversation that he claims he did, with Waltz, than you are on your way to the truth of the matter.
If, on the other hand, you believe that the true facts of the LDM came from Jacob Waltz, through Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrach who told the story to Jim Bark and Sims Ely, than you miight wonder why neither man mentioned this (important) "fact". Was there a good reason to keep it a secret?
Do you think you have an idea of the character of Jacob Waltz? Does
your assessment of the man match anything that came from the Holmes family? All of Brownie's information concerning the death of Jacob Waltz and the clues that he talked about, came from his father. Did Dick Holmes have any reason to lie to his son? You will have to decide that for yourself.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
That's an interesting question, in that it might spark a little debate.
It seems to me, that the answer to your questions can only be found with the person who first put forth that story. If you believe that Dick Holmes
had the conversation that he claims he did, with Waltz, than you are on your way to the truth of the matter.
If, on the other hand, you believe that the true facts of the LDM came from Jacob Waltz, through Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrach who told the story to Jim Bark and Sims Ely, than you miight wonder why neither man mentioned this (important) "fact". Was there a good reason to keep it a secret?
Do you think you have an idea of the character of Jacob Waltz? Does
your assessment of the man match anything that came from the Holmes family? All of Brownie's information concerning the death of Jacob Waltz and the clues that he talked about, came from his father. Did Dick Holmes have any reason to lie to his son? You will have to decide that for yourself.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
John Mitchell had interviewed the Petrasches and Julia Thomas in the early days. He was also of the opinion that Dick Holmes' information was of little value because Mitchell believe Holmes wasn't in Phoneix at Waltz's death - therefore anything Holmes said could not have been true.
What is interesting is that Mitchell mentions the mine being covered with logs. If he put little value on Homles tale - then the detail of the mine being covered could have come from Thomas or the Petrasches.
Just because Ely or Bark did not mention such an item does not mean Waltz didn't bring it up. He could have and the two (Ely and Bark) held the information back. Afterall, they did not bring up a lot of other things that Thomas and the Petrasches told them.
There are several theories where the wood came from to cover up the mine. It depends perhaps on where one believes Horse Country to be. A careful reading of various documents can lead one to believe Horse Country was not where it is commonly assumed to be.
Regarding the age... yes... they could have rotted away - and things caved in. This could lead to a surface abnormality giving away the pit's location.
What is interesting is that Mitchell mentions the mine being covered with logs. If he put little value on Homles tale - then the detail of the mine being covered could have come from Thomas or the Petrasches.
Just because Ely or Bark did not mention such an item does not mean Waltz didn't bring it up. He could have and the two (Ely and Bark) held the information back. Afterall, they did not bring up a lot of other things that Thomas and the Petrasches told them.
There are several theories where the wood came from to cover up the mine. It depends perhaps on where one believes Horse Country to be. A careful reading of various documents can lead one to believe Horse Country was not where it is commonly assumed to be.
Regarding the age... yes... they could have rotted away - and things caved in. This could lead to a surface abnormality giving away the pit's location.
A lot of the literature makes reference to the Apaches sealing mines with a layer of caliche-like cement. All these references appear anecdotal in nature. Is there any real basis for thinking that the Apaches could whip up batches of rock-hard cement in the mountains? One story said blood was one of the ingredients. And I seem to recall the Magill book saying that they hit such a layer while digging out their mine.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Caliche
Wiz,
Blood in not an ingrediant of caliche. Layers of caliche are a product of nature and is found in most semi-arid regions. The Apache, as well as other Indians, did use this natural product mixed with other types of soil (including clay) to seal cracks and make different objects waterproof.
Magill's layer of caliche was most likely natural. It would have been created by runoff and normal leaching of surrounding soil.
You will find caliche everywhere in the Southwest.
Respectfully,
Joe
Blood in not an ingrediant of caliche. Layers of caliche are a product of nature and is found in most semi-arid regions. The Apache, as well as other Indians, did use this natural product mixed with other types of soil (including clay) to seal cracks and make different objects waterproof.
Magill's layer of caliche was most likely natural. It would have been created by runoff and normal leaching of surrounding soil.
You will find caliche everywhere in the Southwest.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Fill
S.C.,
Mitchell was not above using someone elses material to create a good story. His mention of Waltz covering the mine is brief, to say the least.
Brownies story is a much better read for that event.
Respectfully,
Joe
Mitchell was not above using someone elses material to create a good story. His mention of Waltz covering the mine is brief, to say the least.
Brownies story is a much better read for that event.
Respectfully,
Joe
Re: Caliche
Thank you Joe. I know what caliche is. I said caliche-LIKE. I was referring to the several accounts of them making a batch of this stuff (including blood) for the purpose of sealing mines.Joe Ribaudo wrote:Wiz,
Blood in not an ingrediant of caliche. Layers of caliche are a product of nature and is found in most semi-arid regions. The Apache, as well as other Indians, did use this natural product mixed with other types of soil (including clay) to seal cracks and make different objects waterproof.
Magill's layer of caliche was most likely natural. It would have been created by runoff and normal leaching of surrounding soil.
You will find caliche everywhere in the Southwest.
Respectfully,
Joe
Magill supposedly found a dry Mexican or Spanish mine under the caliche layer. This would indicate an artificial source for the substance.
Then again, you have several accounts of people uncovering the mine AFTER Waltz covered it over (John Reed comes to mind here). Question is, did they RE-cover it or just leave it lie after they were done?
My information has Waltz setting up a beartrap at the bottom of the shaft. (Then again, I have seen "shaft" read cave, tunnel, and hole..so who knows). Whether or not this is true I have no idea.
About Waltzs lumber. It is my belief that the trees needed to be cut to cover the mine over were alot more numerous and alot closer to the mine than folks think. This "horse country" talk (Mexican work parties dragging lumber for miles over rough terrain) is silly..IMHO. In any event, Ely talks about the lumber being cut by Mexicans for shoring up the walls of the tunnel, not about Waltz cutting timber in the "horse country" and then dragging it some miles to the mine.
P
My information has Waltz setting up a beartrap at the bottom of the shaft. (Then again, I have seen "shaft" read cave, tunnel, and hole..so who knows). Whether or not this is true I have no idea.
About Waltzs lumber. It is my belief that the trees needed to be cut to cover the mine over were alot more numerous and alot closer to the mine than folks think. This "horse country" talk (Mexican work parties dragging lumber for miles over rough terrain) is silly..IMHO. In any event, Ely talks about the lumber being cut by Mexicans for shoring up the walls of the tunnel, not about Waltz cutting timber in the "horse country" and then dragging it some miles to the mine.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Like?
Wiz,
Are you saying that the substance that Magill's party found was not caliche, rather something "like" caliche?
How did we get from the LDM, to caliche? Do we need to start another topic?
Respectfully,
Joe
Are you saying that the substance that Magill's party found was not caliche, rather something "like" caliche?
How did we get from the LDM, to caliche? Do we need to start another topic?
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Cover-Up
Wiz,
Actually, this topic is about Jacob Waltz covering his mine. The Apache covering the other mines is another story. The Apache did not cover the LDM and there is no mention of Waltz using caliche to seal his mine.
"I wasn't there so I couldn't say for sure. But I don't think caliche grows as layers across mineshafts."
I will admit I know next to nothing about caliche. You seem to be the expert. One of the things that I do know, is that it is created through a natural water leaching process. Perhaps you know something about Magill's hole in the ground that would negate the possibility of a natural cap of caliche forming where it was found by Magill's crew.
I was under the impression that Magill's "mine shaft" was a pit. I will look at his book when I get back home. If it was a "pit", I would think it might be a perfect place for a caliche cap to "grow".
You are a pretty "sharp cookie" Wiz, right up there with my friend Peter,
so I think I will bow to your knowledge on caliche. You can have the last word on the subject.
Respectfully,
Joe
Actually, this topic is about Jacob Waltz covering his mine. The Apache covering the other mines is another story. The Apache did not cover the LDM and there is no mention of Waltz using caliche to seal his mine.
"I wasn't there so I couldn't say for sure. But I don't think caliche grows as layers across mineshafts."
I will admit I know next to nothing about caliche. You seem to be the expert. One of the things that I do know, is that it is created through a natural water leaching process. Perhaps you know something about Magill's hole in the ground that would negate the possibility of a natural cap of caliche forming where it was found by Magill's crew.
I was under the impression that Magill's "mine shaft" was a pit. I will look at his book when I get back home. If it was a "pit", I would think it might be a perfect place for a caliche cap to "grow".
You are a pretty "sharp cookie" Wiz, right up there with my friend Peter,
so I think I will bow to your knowledge on caliche. You can have the last word on the subject.
Respectfully,
Joe
The classic story of Waltz covering his mine is as follows:
1) He widens the top of his shaft down to a couple of feet in order to lay logs across it. Imagine a penny being widened to the size of a quarter. The extra room around the edges are for log placement.
2) He lays one layer of logs north-south. The second layer he lays east-west. These logs are either laurel or ironwood so they wont rot over time. (Anyone know if a buried laurel log will indeed last for 120 years?....I am not so sure, but then again I am hardly a log expert.)
3) Once the logs are laid, he carefully covers the top with rock and dirt until it looks like the surrounding terrain. Waltz said that after he was done one could drive a packmule or wagon over the mine and it would hold up just fine. He also said that after one rainy season the area looked completely natural....
Various sources state that Waltz booby trapped the mine (beartrap?), left a cache in it, left tools, bodies, etc... etc... Till someone locates and excavates (digging is illegal) it we will never know for sure.
P
1) He widens the top of his shaft down to a couple of feet in order to lay logs across it. Imagine a penny being widened to the size of a quarter. The extra room around the edges are for log placement.
2) He lays one layer of logs north-south. The second layer he lays east-west. These logs are either laurel or ironwood so they wont rot over time. (Anyone know if a buried laurel log will indeed last for 120 years?....I am not so sure, but then again I am hardly a log expert.)
3) Once the logs are laid, he carefully covers the top with rock and dirt until it looks like the surrounding terrain. Waltz said that after he was done one could drive a packmule or wagon over the mine and it would hold up just fine. He also said that after one rainy season the area looked completely natural....
Various sources state that Waltz booby trapped the mine (beartrap?), left a cache in it, left tools, bodies, etc... etc... Till someone locates and excavates (digging is illegal) it we will never know for sure.
P
covered mine
If waltz covered the mine by laying poles north to south and poles east to west. Then I will gamble and say he covered them up with crap!! I say... AND where in the hell did he find a bear trap out in the SUP,S... Do you know what even a small bear trap weight,s?? At least 50 LB,S... If calite is such strong crap how comes it changes after a few months in the weather?? bill
Bill
I imagine Waltz would have packed a beartrap (if indeed that is what he used) in with him on one of his burros. I do not believe he "found" the beartrap in the Superstitions, but who knows maybe he did! I did not mean I had definitive information on the direction that the logs were laid.
I simply used the compass points to illustrate the fact that the logs were supposed to have been laid in a criss-cross fashion one layer above the other. Sorry for confusing you, I will attempt to write plainer next time and not use any words with more than 4 letters in them so that you will have a better grasp on the material.
P
I imagine Waltz would have packed a beartrap (if indeed that is what he used) in with him on one of his burros. I do not believe he "found" the beartrap in the Superstitions, but who knows maybe he did! I did not mean I had definitive information on the direction that the logs were laid.
I simply used the compass points to illustrate the fact that the logs were supposed to have been laid in a criss-cross fashion one layer above the other. Sorry for confusing you, I will attempt to write plainer next time and not use any words with more than 4 letters in them so that you will have a better grasp on the material.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Tough Old Bird
Peter,
That's such a great story. Any idea of the approximate year Waltz covered his mine?
Respectfully,
Joe
That's such a great story. Any idea of the approximate year Waltz covered his mine?
Respectfully,
Joe
A bear trap could refer to a deadfall, or some other arrangement that could be created on the spot. Nothing necessarily had to be packed in. Kenworthy also outlines some very effective looking rock fall traps in his "Death Traps" book. Some of these could have been set up by one man without much trouble.
covered mines
HEY JOE; I beleive Pettie has been reading the HOLMES crap agin!!! WILL you do me a POR FAVOR and thanx PETTIE for me? He won,t beleive me if I do it!! He has such a soft smoooth flowery way with the language. Bill P.S. if we ever need to lay some BEAR trap,s we know who to go to for all the advice We will need for our task.
covered mines
OK Pettee; We all know what to look for now! A round pile of red caliche in the middle of where it is not supposed to be??? 
bill P.S. The only stories I read where they used or mixed up a cement they used antlope blood.... bill
bill P.S. The only stories I read where they used or mixed up a cement they used antlope blood.... bill covered mines
Pete; I got to wondering if maybe Waltz cut his eyes from left to right and right to left to make sure nobody was watching him when he layed the log,s down to cover the mine??? Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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John Reed?
Peter,
I assumed someone would ask you about John Reed finding and uncovering the LDM. Not a single peep. Can you give us a little more information, such as, any family connections to Jim Bark?
Since you mentioned Reed's name, I must assume you don't mind telling us what you know.
If we are using John Mitchell as a purveyor of the truth, Waltz "covered
the entrance to the shaft with timbers and rocks...." This work was done on "his last trip to the mine in 1877". If that information came from Julia Thomas, as she was told the story by Jacob Waltz, how does that match up with known facts and dates concerning the LDM and Waltz?
If you believe the Dick/Brownie Holmes deathbed confessions of Jacob Waltz, he covered the mine sometime around 1884. Sound like a job that Waltz would have taken on in 1884?
Is your email address still the same?
Respectfully,
Joe
I assumed someone would ask you about John Reed finding and uncovering the LDM.
Not a single peep. Can you give us a little more information, such as, any family connections to Jim Bark?Since you mentioned Reed's name, I must assume you don't mind telling us what you know.
If we are using John Mitchell as a purveyor of the truth, Waltz "covered
the entrance to the shaft with timbers and rocks...." This work was done on "his last trip to the mine in 1877". If that information came from Julia Thomas, as she was told the story by Jacob Waltz, how does that match up with known facts and dates concerning the LDM and Waltz?
If you believe the Dick/Brownie Holmes deathbed confessions of Jacob Waltz, he covered the mine sometime around 1884. Sound like a job that Waltz would have taken on in 1884?
Is your email address still the same?
Respectfully,
Joe
Bill
I am not quite sure what you were blathering on about, but I am sure it was something interesting.
Joe
1) I believe Reed had some VERY interesting family connections..but they did not involve Jim Bark. This is not my tale to tell, nor do I believe it should be told on a public forum. Guess we will have to wait for the book on this one. As far as the whole Reed story goes, I just do not know if it was true or not...but the possibilty does intrigue.
2) The 1884-85 timeframe fits in with my take on the story....and not because of the Holmes side of things, though it does seem to bear out his version. My theory is that Waltz made his final trip into the mountains to cover the mine as a direct result of him hearing about the Soldiers/Deering stories. Some would say he was too old in 85 to cover the mine...but hell, I beleive some 75 year olds today can still get into the mountains..and Gassler did it too. Add to the fact that folks were in better physical shape back then (no cars ya know)...
P
You can reach me via email at : [email protected]
Just got licensed as a Real Estate Agent in AZ, so now have a second career going. Any of you folks buying or selling give me a holler....or if you just need comps and such off the MLS, I'll be happy to oblige.
I am not quite sure what you were blathering on about, but I am sure it was something interesting.
Joe
1) I believe Reed had some VERY interesting family connections..but they did not involve Jim Bark. This is not my tale to tell, nor do I believe it should be told on a public forum. Guess we will have to wait for the book on this one. As far as the whole Reed story goes, I just do not know if it was true or not...but the possibilty does intrigue.
2) The 1884-85 timeframe fits in with my take on the story....and not because of the Holmes side of things, though it does seem to bear out his version. My theory is that Waltz made his final trip into the mountains to cover the mine as a direct result of him hearing about the Soldiers/Deering stories. Some would say he was too old in 85 to cover the mine...but hell, I beleive some 75 year olds today can still get into the mountains..and Gassler did it too. Add to the fact that folks were in better physical shape back then (no cars ya know)...
P
You can reach me via email at : [email protected]
Just got licensed as a Real Estate Agent in AZ, so now have a second career going. Any of you folks buying or selling give me a holler....or if you just need comps and such off the MLS, I'll be happy to oblige.
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Joe Ribaudo
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?
Peter,
I think that was pretty much my question. If you didn't want to discuss the family connections, which I suspected, why would you mention John Reed?
I agree with your assessment of being 75 in 1884 or 85, but not for Jacob Waltz. In 1878 Waltz made his "old age" agreement with Andrew Starar.
Not something a "vigorous" man would be expected to do, especially in 1878. Jacob Waltz was listed as "ill" in the 1880 U.S. Census. Ever wonder how many people get listed as "ill" in a U.S. Census?
Those are "facts", not "reports" of what or how Waltz was doing at that time in his life. He was not in "better physical shape".
Sure makes a hard winters work in the Superstitions seem less likely.
I believe the Holmes version does not have Waltz "hearing" about the Two Soldiers but seeing that someone had disturbed his claim, waiting until they came back and killing them on their way out. When he came back the next winter, he saw that someone else had been at the mine, I think we are to assume Joe Deering, and then decided to cover the mine.
All of this can be found in the "Holmes Manuscript", so I know you are familiar with Brownies/Dicks 'facts".
Respectfully,
Joe
I think that was pretty much my question. If you didn't want to discuss the family connections, which I suspected, why would you mention John Reed?
I agree with your assessment of being 75 in 1884 or 85, but not for Jacob Waltz. In 1878 Waltz made his "old age" agreement with Andrew Starar.
Not something a "vigorous" man would be expected to do, especially in 1878. Jacob Waltz was listed as "ill" in the 1880 U.S. Census. Ever wonder how many people get listed as "ill" in a U.S. Census?
Those are "facts", not "reports" of what or how Waltz was doing at that time in his life. He was not in "better physical shape".
Sure makes a hard winters work in the Superstitions seem less likely.
I believe the Holmes version does not have Waltz "hearing" about the Two Soldiers but seeing that someone had disturbed his claim, waiting until they came back and killing them on their way out. When he came back the next winter, he saw that someone else had been at the mine, I think we are to assume Joe Deering, and then decided to cover the mine.
All of this can be found in the "Holmes Manuscript", so I know you are familiar with Brownies/Dicks 'facts".
Respectfully,
Joe
covered mines
Shoot pete I was going to ask you to tell us about a Reed finding the mine I have not heard of this tale. Anyway congrad. on you license and wish you sucess in your realestate venture... bill
Joe
Just because I mentioned John Reed or his family ties doesnt mean I wish to discuss him at length on a public forum.
I am of course, aware of the "facts" of Waltzs alleged illness and the Starrar connection. While I agree one has to look at the historical facts, one has to also keep in mind what Waltz's motivation might have been back then...
I am not working off the "Holmes" version of events. I am working off the "Peter" theory. I may be wrong (and likely am) but I beleive Waltz would have heard about the Soldiers/Deering events back then, would have been mighty interested, and would have taken steps to cover over "his" mine.
Interesting that the Reed info places Waltz at the mine 3 years before the last time Reed was there with his father which was alleged to have been in 1888...which means that Waltz was seen at the mine in ....1885. Interesting..but who knows if it is true.
Bill
Thanks for your kind words.
In a nutshell the John Reed account has Reed (as a boy)and his father find a mine in the Superstitions in the 1880's. They know Waltz, see him there and run him off of the working and do some prospecting. They return 2 more times, encountering Waltz again. Much of Reeds info does indeed fit in with known LDM "facts". But...who knows if it is the truth? For a solid take on the John Reed story you folks should get ahold of the SMHS Journal #6.
P
Just because I mentioned John Reed or his family ties doesnt mean I wish to discuss him at length on a public forum.
I am of course, aware of the "facts" of Waltzs alleged illness and the Starrar connection. While I agree one has to look at the historical facts, one has to also keep in mind what Waltz's motivation might have been back then...
I am not working off the "Holmes" version of events. I am working off the "Peter" theory. I may be wrong (and likely am) but I beleive Waltz would have heard about the Soldiers/Deering events back then, would have been mighty interested, and would have taken steps to cover over "his" mine.
Interesting that the Reed info places Waltz at the mine 3 years before the last time Reed was there with his father which was alleged to have been in 1888...which means that Waltz was seen at the mine in ....1885. Interesting..but who knows if it is true.
Bill
Thanks for your kind words.
In a nutshell the John Reed account has Reed (as a boy)and his father find a mine in the Superstitions in the 1880's. They know Waltz, see him there and run him off of the working and do some prospecting. They return 2 more times, encountering Waltz again. Much of Reeds info does indeed fit in with known LDM "facts". But...who knows if it is the truth? For a solid take on the John Reed story you folks should get ahold of the SMHS Journal #6.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Jr?
Peter,
Is your "nutshell" John Reed a Jr.?
Respectfully,
Joe
Is your "nutshell" John Reed a Jr.?
Respectfully,
Joe