Purnell and Keenan….what ever happened to them?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
rochha
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Purnell and Keenan….what ever happened to them?

Post by rochha »

Ruths involvement in the search for the lost Dutchman is one of intrigue, he claims to have a map from Manuel Gonzales. He show’s up at Tex Barcleys place wanting someone to take him into the Superstitions so he can find what the map eludes too. He doesn’t want to wait on Tex anymore so he has these two guy’s that take him in say they will check on him in 10 days. Well, we all know what happens in the end with this man.

I was looking thru the Book “ Thunder Gods “ by Barry Storm. On page 47 in the chapter called Ruth’s Spanish Mine. It says at the bottom of the page that the Peralta Map that Ruth had obtained from Manuel Gonzales turn’s up in the possession of Leroy Purnell in 1934 in Judge Standages Mesa court. This information comes to light because of an argument between Purnell and Keenan.

Barry Storm goes on to say that Keenan had filed a claim to a supposed Peralta mine near Second Water Springs. Purnell claims to have found the map at the site of the antigua tunnels at the back end of Bluff Springs. Had these guy’s ever done any mining before this incident? Had any one of them ever filed any claims before Ruths death?

That is an interesting story coming from the two men who packed in Ruth who knew exactly where he was. Did the authorities ever check in this story about the map? From what I have read the Peralta Map was not with Ruths body when it was discovered. Then it shows up in the hands of one of the men who packed him into the supers, not only that it has to be handled in a court in mesa with the other guy that took him in. Or is this all too circumstantial or what.

What ever happened to Purnell and Keenan? One of them having the infamous map after this killing seems to be rather compelling evedince of their possible involvement in his death. I don’t know much about Barry Storm or his sources but someone here must know what ever happened to these two and did the authorities ever recontact them when the map resurfaced under questionable circumstances.

What ever happened to these two guys?


Rochha
S.C.
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Post by S.C. »

Those are all good points. Whether Keenan and/or Purnell got a copy of Ruth's map, I don't know. I suppose one can argue a good case either way. And also argue whether they were involved in Ruth's death - even considering the obvious "evidence."

The 1934 civil case has been brought up before. And no one yet has been able to prove that it ever happened. So, it could have been "literary licence" or misunderstanding on Storm's part.

I think either Keenan or Purnell had a quasi-perment camp of some kind in the mountains. Exactly where, I cannot recall. But, that in itself means little. Did either have claims? Probably - lots of people did back then.

The authorities never put much into the "map" Ruth supposedly had. Why they didn't is hard to say. Why they wrote off the death as "accidental" from "natural causes" is hard to say, too. All we can do now is second guess and theorize.

In "The Killer Mountains" Curt Gentry wrote of Keenan and Purnell - but never used their real names. It becomes obvious later. The reason was that the "widow" of one - whom Gentry referred to as "Lusk" - contacted Glenn Magill to congratulate him on finding the mine. In the course of the conversation she let's it slip that Ruth "gave" her husband a copy if his treasure map. Magill controls himself - and asks if he might see it sometime. She says sure. Later her "son" ends the conversation abruptly and tells Magill to blow off. So... if this was true... it might say something.
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

rochha; Very good research. I would like to flush out a badman.. ruth,s soul cry,s out for justice....bill
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Post by rochha »

S.C.

Thanks for the response; it makes no sense on Ruth’s part to give either one of these two guy’s a copy of the map. He could just as well said “ lead me in there and I will give you a taste of the mine “. I wonder if in the investigation his wife or son let it be known that they had a copy of the map and it was given to them by Ruth. If I were investigating this case it would have made me very suspicious if that information had come out.

The LAPD must have handled this case, why would they not give the map scenario proper attention is beyond me. His death has all the ingredients murder’s are made of as I see it. A lost goldmine, a map, being left out in the supers for up to 10 days alone. These two guys’ knew this old man could not handle being out there. Ruth had the “ fever “ and it clouded his judgment from what I can see and it got him killed. I wonder if his body would have been found right away if the outcome would have been different. One of the many things puzzling about this was the fact that his hip replacement implant was not found, and that his head was found so far away almost as if the killer didn’t ever want anyone to know for sure that it was Ruth. Yes all of his belongings were found and interestingly enough his shoes were missing.

It would be interesting to see what mines either of these two guy’s made claims for after Ruth’s death. Or, if any relatives of these two guys ever made mining claims as well.

Also if true, what the civil case was all about.

I was at the Superstition Mtn. Museum yesterday and saw the Journal that has a picture of Ruth’s skull on the front of the cover. I have seen and x ray’d many gun shot wounds to head while working in a major level one trauma center for 8 years and that whole sure does appear to have come from a large caliber weapon. Smaller caliber bullets like to bounce around and ricochet of the bones of the skull. But larger bullets do a complete thru and thru. He could have been shot with a rifle as well.

I guess one will really never know what happened to Ruth….for my money, he was murdered.

And Bill, you probably are right about his soul!!!!

Rochha
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Post by Wiz »

It's possible that Purnell had a dummy "map" and was using it to try and drum up some financial support. Stranger things have happened (repeatedly!).
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Post by bill711 »

Ruth,s hip joint was probly silver, that,s what they made most of them and plates of then. At 1.00 an ounce it wouldn,t be worth much in value. BUT the depression was on at the time. His shoe,s were worth a couple of bucks too. If checked now days it would be no problem to see if there is bullet lead on the entry wound at the skull. The 2 jail birds seem to come into some money tobe able to go on a tear with their girl friends for several days. I would think that after TEX said he would take him into the sup,s after he got back. I would think that NOBODY would take them in after Tex nixed it for now...I think it would be possible that maybe 2 or more found the body and monkeyed with it. TEX had the only real reason if you want to call it that for touching or moving the body... bill
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Post by rochha »

Wiz,

The Adolph Ruth mystery is indeed a mystery within itself; yes one of them could have had a dummy map used for such purposes.

Bill, I had not taken into consideration the price of silver back then, assuming it was silver. It could have been just plain old stainless steel; I had not read that these two guys did go out partying shortly there after as you mentioned. Where did you read that at, I am assuming your are talking about Purnell and Keenan?

I wonder how much talking Ruth did prior to arriving at Tex’s ranch. He could have been spouting off about his map all during his trip to Arizona. Who was at Tex’s ranch when Ruth arrived? From what I have read in Barry Storms book he was talking to anyone that would listen about it. He should have kept his mouth shut a little. He might have lived a little longer.

Rochha
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All That Glitters is Not Silver

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Gentlemen,

I believe Ruth's silver plate was found with the skeleton. Page 61, "Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time" Swanson/Kollenborn.
Tom Kollenborn would be, far and away, the best living source for this information, as he talked to Tex Barkley many time as to what transpired.

Page 9, "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by, Sims Ely. On the same page, Ely states that the body of Adolph Ruth was found on a "brushy ridge overlooking West Boulder Canyon". That seems to be a rather huge mistake.

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

Rochha; I don,t think stainless steel came into use until about the mid 40,s It took the place of nickle or crome plating. I have 3 u s army canteen,s that are stainless steel. My older brother broke his arm in a horse and wagon wreck they put a silver plate into his forearm in the mid 40,s. they also used silver plate to cover the skull fracter,s. off hand I do not remember where I read about them taking his car for several days along with their girl friends but I have read it in several different story,s. I don,t have my book,s handy so I can,t look up which ones ...bill
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Post by rochha »

Joe,

I was getting my information about Ruth’s missing silver plate from Barry Storms book, he says “ and when the posse headed by such experienced mountain men as Tex Barkley and Jeff Adams finally ferreted out the remains, they saw at once that the detached head was not the work of wild animals, nor was the scattering of Ruth’s bones and effects. And where was the little silver plate that fastened a fracture in Ruth’s thighbone together since an accident years before “. Leaving one to believe that it was not found.

I don’t have the two books that you mentioned, and did not have Dr. Glovers book with me at the time to cross reference the material. I usually try to reference a lot of things with his book; it seems to be the best.

Bill, I believe now that it was silver now that I have double checked what I read out of Barry’s book. Thats intersting about the them taking his car and partying with some girls after his death.


Rochha
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

Rochha; No No No rochha I meant they went partying in his car after they packed him in to his camp and came back out. I don,t know if he was dead then or not. He was supposed to have let them have his keys to his car or that was what the 2 jail birds claimed. He left hikeing BUT left his hiking boots and thermos or water bottle in camp.. Now I cannot beleive he was that eager. He damn near lost his life in cal. when he fell and broke his thiegh or hip bone. He was by himself a couple of days before his boy was able to find him. So he had to know the value of equipment in that kind of terrain. I will see if my helper can round up the books for me . Bill
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Post by rochha »

Bill,

Ok I see what your saying now about them partying, these two guys should have known he was in no shape to be at all. If he would have waited for Tex to get back I think the outcome would have been different.

Rochha
P
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Post by P »

Most folks believe that Purnell and Keenan either did away with Ruth or had something to do with his killing. Fair enough and that does seem to be a logical deduction.

However, if one looks at the killing and at what some of the principals did afterwards, it really does make one wonder if something else might have transpired that is generally not accepted by the majority of the Dutch Hunting community.

Peter
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Post by bill711 »

Rochha; Tex knew that there was a lot of low lifes hanging around who would do away with a body in a moment if it would gain them a few dollar,s and there was alot of dutch hunters who would kill in a moment for any information about the mine.The depression was ON and times were tough! Alot of people were out of work and desperate back then. If you have Ed Gorman,s little pamplet read it how bad things were even for locals to go out there. Even the locals went by 2,s and were armed.. Even now to this day you should have something on your hip in case you need it.. These 2 jailbirds were just out of prison and worked for TEX when he needed extra hands. SO they were not rolling in the dough at the time. Now it,s my understanding that pernell and keenan hadn,t been out of prison very long at the time. So I don,t think they had a mining back ground or I haven,t read of it so far? I think TEX made it clear that he would take Ruth into the sup,s when he got back. SO it was sorta like the 2 jail birds were under cutting TEX. AT the time I think they were hanging out at Tex,s ranch, which many did including Brownie Holmes. I think he was always hobnobibg around with BILL Tex,s son drinking in the back ground he seemed to always be hoovering about. When skull Drudgery was going on the same way his Brownie,s dad did. SO where did the 2 jailbirds get the money to go partying with their 2 girl friends from?? I read it was several days partying and they were seen all over the couny in his car..Maybe They were paid by someone else? Maybe they robbed the ruth for money and his map?? Maybe they were paid by someone else to get the map and made a copy for themselves ? Bill
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Post by RU Kidding »

It seems odd to me that they would take his map and boots (to sell?) but leave his revolver.
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

ru; I think his boots were found in his camp with his thermos , I cannot remember about the gun...So he left to hunt the mine without his hiking boots and water. it does not sound right to me.. Bill
rochha
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Post by rochha »

Bill,

There is a lot of this Ruth mystery that doesn’t sound right, like why they did not believe the famed Dr. Hrdlicka’s findings about Ruth’s skull. Especially the part about him saying “ The condition of the skull indicated that death occurred not more than a few months ago “. And his findings about a gun shot. That was written in a letter stating his findings that he had received the skull in December 19,1931. Ruth was last seen alive by anyone on June 18, by Glen Ward. Tex Barkley went into his camp on the 20th. Judging from the condition of the camp he determines no one has been there for over 24 hrs.

Dr. Hrdlickas statement that death occurred not more than a “ few “ months ago would make it around October 19th. But lets give it an extra month and call it September 19th.. From what I have read a search was undertaken that lasted 45 days that started in mid June and was called off in mid August due to the heat, nothing was ever found of Ruth. He was reported missing in June by Tex Barkley. If Dr. Hrdlicka is right about the time of death, that would mean that Ruth was alive into September.

Purnell and Keenan riding around in Ruth’s car with their girlfriend’s after they got back from taking Ruth into the Mtns. almost as if they wanted to be seen, establishing an alibi……maybe!

Rochha
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Post by bill711 »

Rochha; True almost everything about it dosen,t add up why was everyone so EAGER to call it an ACCIDENT when any of the older men there would have known that it was a gun shot wound. The skull is usually the first thing seperated from the body,s when they are left out like that. BUT if a wild animal has carriad it or chewed on it is easily seen. There is no animal out there with a tooth the size of a 44 or 45 slug.. You could take a magnefying glass and seen where the lead was rubbed off at the ENTRY wound. WELL according to Walter Gasseler, TEX told him that Tex found the body within a couple of days after his death. ALSO that he moved the body to where it was found. I assume Tex knew enough to know that Ruth was killed where he found him! There would have been alot of blood and brain tissue there at that spot. I think that everyone at the time didn,t like the public attention and just wanted it all hushed up and didn,t really care WHO shot him. After all he was just an outsider who nobody knew anyway. Ruth brought death and disruption into their quit lives. Bill
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Post by dutch elm disease »

rocha,
just a remark on your last post, you mentioned "the famed" dr hrdlicka, most if not allreports describe him so. ive seen revcently in a book review described by a few of his colleagues as slipshod, arrogant and at times underhand. i did show the document to another forum member who didnt place much faith in it,true or not,it shows that there are conflicting views on said doctor. none of which proves anything of courseregarding ruthsdeath, a death which has yet 9(in my opinion) anywhere nearbeen proved a homicide.
thanks
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Post by dutch elm disease »

rocha
and of course there are a lot of things ( including innuendo) that just cant be said on here......................
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

DED; If you really beleive what you wrote about ruth being shot or murdered I sure wouldn,t want you investigating my murder You would never make it past your morning coffee. Inuendo??? If the investigation looks or leads toward someone good. If they are innocent it will be proven. If they are guilty so be it. What would it take for you to call someone quilty A tape confession? A vidio of the entire murder?? Remember this because some of the evidence points at a certain person it doesn,t make that person quilty of the crime!! But it does give us a suspect, Maybe some more suspect,s. It,s when people do not talk that murder is NOT solved , and everyone is a suspect. YOU pulled the typical liberal defense, YOU ATTACK the DOCTOR ? Hell hrdlica didn,t kill anybody. He just said it was bullet wound?? YOU just muddy the water when you attack him and let the real killer slid. REMEMBER you follow the clues where ever they might lead!! It,s called investigation..That,s how you flush out the quilty party,s involved in the crime... Bill
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Post by dutch elm disease »

bill
typical liberal defence/? attacking the doctor? wat on earth you babbling about?innuendo? the innuendo im talking about has never been discussed on here, and i doubt if it ever will...it cant be... and how pray atthis late time could you disprove orprove anyones guilt? did isayhrdlicka shot anyone?i merely stated whatOTHERS have said about him..thats all! and you might consider this while youre at it..an investigation is just that..an investigation,which means you look at ALL the available evidence..not just the evidencethat fits a particular theory...and plus you dont start an investigation with preconcieved ideas oftheverdict.youre assuming there was a crime, maybe there was, maybe you know there was...maybe you were there peeking at it from behind the local publicshithouse?..maybe you might try asking the local authotrities why and howthey came to the verdict they did? you hope i wouldnt be the one investigating yourmurder you state,no worries there...i wouldnt...in mark twains words id merely send a letter saying i approved :lol:
i take it bill the bounty on my ears has nowbeen replaced/?
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Post by rochha »

DED, Bill

I was going on the information about Dr. Hrdlicka from books about the lost Dutchman, and they all say the same thing about him. He was considered top in his field, just because he was arrogant I don’t think can take away his knowledge of his profession. I work with many Doctors who are extremely arrogant but they are considered to be the best in their field. I find it hard to believe that the wholes in ruths skull were made by animals. I would think there would be some sort of chew marks on the skull and from everything I have read no one has described that.

I have not read that Tex told Walt Gassler about discovering Ruths body when he went in to find him, why would he do that and where is that information found at? While I have some books about the Lost Dutchman I have not read them all cover to cover. If Tex did in fact find the body it would have to have been after Glen Ward saw him on the 18th of June.

Ded, I would be interested in knowing what innuendo you are referring to that has not been discussed here.

I also read somewhere that the Ruth family had offered a reward about Adolph, did anyone ever collect on that?

Bill, makes sense about the people of the supers not wanting a flood of people in the mountains disturbing what they were doing back then. Especially if some of them were looking for the mine themselves.

What a mystery!!!!!


Rochha
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

DED; When I said let,s hear from you I didn,t mean for you to come being arrogant with everyone. I see I may just have to spank your big fat as.. right here on the screen. I read where everyone of the shit throwers were eat up with jelessy. I wasn,t coming out with any preconceived idea,s. BUT in any investigation where do you start? At the funeral or the scene of the crime? Who do you question first? The last ones who saw him. Is there anything there suspecious? Something that doesn,t make sense? Parnell and Keneen are the prime suspec,s weather you want them or not and should be questioned very close, do their story,s make sense? You should question them repetedly? see if the story change. Their girl friends should be questioned repetedly too. Who was around them at the Barkly ranch?? Question them repetedly.. Go around to where the boy,s went on their fling and see what kind of money they were spending. so so. I might say someone is susect. BUT that,s not saying they did it.. BUT I would not attack the doctor. When people attack the doctor or investigater they are usually hiding something. I bet if that is true about the doctor your could find some of their colleages would thro crap at them too. Who wrote to New York getting info. on the doctor,s and why would they do it. The doc. didn,t kill anyone??? Bill
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Post by bill711 »

Rochha; I think it was the curse of the dutchmans Gold by corbin. GOOD POST Rochha. Bill
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