Ruth's Trail

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Thomas Glover
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Post by Thomas Glover »

What makes one think that Deering found the Two Soldier's Mine? Just curious.
Joe Ribaudo
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Did He Find It.

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter and Dr. Glover,

Chunning claimed he found it. By his own account he was following Deering's directions. Anyone know when he actually stopped using
those directions?
By Jim Bark's account of what John told him, he never said that Deering claimed it was the Two Soldiers find.

Dr. Glover's question is really a good one. Who first tied the Two Soldiers into the Joe Deering mine?
By the way, it was five pounds of ore, not fifty. It's hell to get old. I really hate being wrong so often. 8O That is a private observation that only one person will understand. I am not talking about my being wrong, as I am sure you all understand that comment, and no doubt agree with me. :lol:

Peter's third option might be what happened, but that would take one hell of a lot of labor. It had to be done some time after 1885. Who was the "perp or perps" that had the time and vigor required for such an enterprise?

As for the Ruth route into the mountains, considering the things being said concerning some of the main players that surrounded his death, it might be a good idea to look at any source which uses those players as "eye witnesses" with some amount of caution.

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
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Ruth Trail

Post by bill711 »

My info has first the dutchman, then 2 soldier,s then Deering following the 2 soldier,s direction,s found it, Then the prospecter who told the Holm,s about it, He said he saw the dutchman coming up the canyon and scaddoodled. Then the dutchman seen someone had been pilfering his gold he closed up the cooky jar.... I have chunning looking for the mine but never finding the dutchman,s mine, Chunning did work a mine but it was a bummer. NO known person has found it since except maybe the cook. I think the dutchman covered it the best he could then the torrential rains that killed the dutchman probily covered it as much as the old man did. It was after he died that people came out of the woodwork to find it... Bill
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Ruth Trail

Post by bill711 »

Apaches covered the mine I think not They were all scattered to florida and Oklahoma. They had more serious bussiness in this time period than covering some mine out in the mountains.. The ones on the reservations were just trying to live and feed themselves at this time...Bill[/i]
S.C.
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Post by S.C. »

Joe...

You are a hard one to convince. For what it is worth, I am convinced...

But you seem to have some theory that has to have something to the contrary. So, good luck to you.

All in all, people put TOO much into Adolph Ruth and his information. His death was a mystery. But... the supposed info he had is blown way out of proportion. But, that is only my opinion. And it is an opinion only.

S.C.
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Post by dutch elm disease »

i tend to agree with s.c, far ,far too much weight has been given to ruth's supposed "information" .his death,in my opinion is far from being proven as a homicide.
we arent able,obviously, to go back in time and grab a piece of history and examine it. instead we have to rely on "writings" and recollections,all written with the inevitable bias that every human being has.the individuals that have handed us down these "histories " were all bitten with the dutchman bug,they were all enamoured of the existence of such caches,mines etc to begin with. hence whenever any individual related a tale of with those elements in it,by and large their stories found immediate acceptance...and that was most probabley before the undoubted exaggerations occurred.its why ive never accepted the idea that the many "different" accounts i.e chuning,deering,2 soldiers and the rest prove the veracity of the story merely by virtue of the fact that there WERE Several accounts as opposed to just the one.its hard to know at this late date how many of the accounts we have all read were actually true(in the authors eyes anyway) or merely people getting on the bandwagon," of course anyone, indeed ive done it myself, can go into the supes and find evidence that seems to correspond with the folklore, but of course that "evidence" can of course correspond with any number of other scenarios also. it might be interesting if we could read "accounts" from that eraof people who took the opposite viewpoint,i.e mine debunkers if youd like to call them that. as my interest lies mainly in the "characters" the events ,the "romance" of the story,it matters little to me whether there is gold or not,but it would be nice to get a less "contrived" overall view of things,but then thats just my opinion.
by the way bill, you mentioned a cook,?
dutch elm disease
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Post by dutch elm disease »

as for the careful, skillfull and complete covering of the mine(s), peters idea might well be correct. but it seems no-one seems to ,at least,consider the possibility that there were no mine(s) to camoufluage to begin with. :lol:
Wiz
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Re: Did He Find It.

Post by Wiz »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:It's hell to get old. I really hate being wrong so often. 8O That is a private observation that only one person will understand. I am not talking about my being wrong, as I am sure you all understand that comment, and no doubt agree with me. :lol:

Peter's third option might be what happened, but that would take one hell of a lot of labor. It had to be done some time after 1885. Who was the "perp or perps" that had the time and vigor required for such an enterprise?

As for the Ruth route into the mountains, considering the things being said concerning some of the main players that surrounded his death, it might be a good idea to look at any source which uses those players as "eye witnesses" with some amount of caution.
Whoa!
Joe, that first paragraph didn't make any sense.

The second one is puzzling: are you seriously asking who might have filled in the mines? Have you read any of the previous threads on this site?
Are you letting Heidi use your computer again?

As for the third: It's easy to take any evidence that doesn't agree with your pet theory and say "well, you can't trust that guy!". But it's not reasonable. You have to look at the realities. There's an "easy" way to get to Willow Springs, and there are all the other ways. It's not reasonable to think that packers with experience in the mountains would decide to take a tenderfoot one of the hardest ways. Given the reality, what do you think really happened?
P
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Post by P »

Tom

I too had wondered whether or not the Deering/Soldiers mine were/are the same. After doing considerable research and leg work on my 2nd favorite LDM topic I am now convinced that they are one and the same working.

As to whether or not the D-S mine is the same mine as Waltz's...that I do not know...but at this juncture I am leaning slightly against it.

P
Joe Ribaudo
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What I Said

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz,

I think I said only one person would understand the comment that preceded what you quoted, but it's not important enouugh for you to be concerned. That person understood me, I am sure.

Yes I am serious in my second paragraph. I have read every post that has been written since I joined this forum, and a number that were written before. I may not remember everyone though. :lol: Not everything that is written here should be taken as "fact". 8O

At what point in time was it considered impossible to ride to the top of Bluff Spring Mountain? There are many places in the mountains that people used to ride on a regular basis, that might not be considered rideable today. Things change, people change and we can't really wrap our minds around the minds of another era.
When did all of the places with "spring" in their names become "springs"? :lol:

S.C.,

Actually, I am convinced. It has stirred up some dust though. :) Someone has to stir the pot here, or we will all just keep repeating the same old stories that have lead nowhere. Without a new slant, the same mistakes that have kept others from finding anything, will also place us in their footsteps and have us finding the same thing that they found.

It might not hurt for some of the really sharp searchers here, to get out of the box and find a fresh perspective.

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
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Ruth Trail

Post by bill711 »

DED; Yes the cook, the man who brought back gold who claim he knew where it was at!!! He brought back the gold that Tom and Bob corbin showed all over the TV....I think they said he was a cook... I don,t remember his name.. Bill Oh he was found dead along the trail on his way back...
azdave35
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gassler

Post by azdave35 »

are you talking about walt gassler?
Wiz
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Re: Ruth Trail

Post by Wiz »

bill711 wrote:DED; Yes the cook, the man who brought back gold who claim he knew where it was at!!! He brought back the gold that Tom and Bob corbin showed all over the TV....I think they said he was a cook... I don,t remember his name.. Bill Oh he was found dead along the trail on his way back...
Bill,
You're getting a little off track on this one.
Helen Corbin's first book said that after Walt Gassler's death, someone claiming (falsely) to be Roland Gassler, Walt's son, showed up and showed Tom K. a piece of gold that he said was in his father's backpack. Tom supposedly said it looked like Dutchman gold.

No one showed that gold all over TV to my knowledge, the phony Roland took it with him. Later the real Roland Gassler appeared and knew nothing about it. Corbin's book is the only place I've seen that story, and I personally don't give her work nearly the academic weight I give to Dr. Glover's book.
Who this other Roland was has been a mystery, but it's been suggested he might have been one of Crazy Jake's people.

The only gold I've seen on TV was on the A&E tape, where they show the match box and a chunk of ore. That didn't come from Gassler.
Walt Gassler had been a cook before coming out to Arizona. Actually, I think he was a chef (higher-priced cook). There is a very cool picture of him in (I think) Dr. Glover's book, with his pith helmet.

Joe,
Re. "spring" and "springs", that's a good question. I've wondered that many times, and I still don't know which one to use when I write. So, I alternate.
And are you suggesting that there are things written on this site that are NOT FACTS???

Tsk!
bill711
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Ruth Trail

Post by bill711 »

Wiz; I knew the gold showed was not the one showed to corbin and Tom. ok? But we all seen almost every time we turned on a&e the story. OK. Tom K. Who seen both ores said in his opinion that they looked like the same Kind. OK? I was not writing a scientific opinion piece. OK? I hoped that most of you had enough common sense and knowledge to know what I was talking of .. OK? I was only giving a rough outline. OK? Now don,t mess yourself over my being lacks with the real fact,s OK.... I didn,t lie did I??? If it had been something real import. rest assured that I would have only gave the real fact,s.? OK
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Re: Ruth Trail

Post by Wiz »

bill711 wrote:Wiz; I knew the gold showed was not the one showed to corbin and Tom. ok? But we all seen almost every time we turned on a&e the story. OK. Tom K. Who seen both ores said in his opinion that they looked like the same Kind. OK? I was not writing a scientific opinion piece. OK? I hoped that most of you had enough common sense and knowledge to know what I was talking of .. OK? I was only giving a rough outline. OK? Now don,t mess yourself over my being lacks with the real fact,s OK.... I didn,t lie did I??? If it had been something real import. rest assured that I would have only gave the real fact,s.? OK
Hey, back off, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to piss you off! You said:

"Yes the cook, the man who brought back gold who claim he knew where it was at!!! He brought back the gold that Tom and Bob corbin showed all over the TV...."

I thought you might have confused a couple of things in the story, since Gassler didn't bring any gold back; he didn't claim anything; and the gold was not shown on TV. As far as I know, you didn't lie, unless you said those things knowing that they were wrong. I didn't think that was the case, so I posted my "correction".

Just putting in my two cents. If you can deal with being corrected, fine. I can too. If you can't, well, there's nothing I can do to help you. Nothing personal intended, just posting to the thread.
OK?
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

Wiz; OK but let,s don,t be so technical all the time I assumed that we all seen the same show. I had also read and heard of him referred to as a cook. not chef BUT cook. LET,S RELAX just alittle. I just couldn,t remember his name Walt Gassler at the time. If the gold didn,t come from Walt why would the man go thru all the pretending crap unless the gold did come from Walt??? Is Tom Kollenborn,s word worth anything?? He said it looked the same as the other...Bill
S.C.
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Post by S.C. »

Perhaps this thread should be called "Gassler's Gold"...

Not to get anyone mad, but....

There was a TV show called "Unsolved Mysteries" and it had an episode about Gassler and the LDM back in 1987 or 88.... This program was what I thought might have been what bill711 was referring to.

In that program it had scenes that were "dramatic representations" of actual events. Often Unsolved Mysteries have actors playing the real-life people and add-in interview scenes with the real participants. So, you have a mix of real-life and re-enactment. In the Gassler episode, Tom Kollenborn, Bob Corbin, and Don Shade played themselves in the "dramatic representations." (Which I thought was cool.) Of course, an actor played Walt Gassler. Intercut, as usual, were interview scenes. These featured Tom, Bob, and Clay Worst. Actors protrayed the people in the "historic" scenes that involved Julia, Rhiney, and Waltz.

That said, Gassler was billed as a chef. And it told the story of him going in and dying on the way out. (This is written up in Helen Corbin's first book and in Thomas Glover's first book.) There was a scene in the TV program, as background, showing Waltz on his deathbed talking to Rhiney and Julia. Under his bed was gold ore. The program showed shots of it. However, the ore pieces were more than likely reproductions.

Later, there is a scene of the fake Roland Gassler coming to see Tom Kollenborn. The fake Roland says he has gold his "dad" brought out of the mountians and was in his "dad's" backpack. Again, the camera shows the ore. But, they were reproductions. And Robert Stack, the narrator, says words to the effect of Tom recognizing the ore as being the same that was under the Dutchman's bed. (This is probably because, to Tom, it looked like the gold the matchbox was made of. But that was not explicitly stated.)

Pretty much the program repeats the events as told in Corbin's and Glover's book. There are a couple of errors regarding general LDM stuff. But they are forgivable.
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Post by Wiz »

Well, the devil is in the details, right?
Those are good questions. I've never heard any follow-up on that story. And there was some business where Walt's backpack was listed among the belongings of the dead man, but was not there when they checked. The real Roland Gassler supposedly just shrugged it off, which also seems weird.
Where did the gold come from? Where indeed. I'm wondering how Tom K. could be so sure it was just like the Dutchman gold. In what ways was it similar? I assume his word is good, but then, I never heard him actually say any of that. Why did the guy go to all the trouble, and who was he? What happened to the backpack?
Remember too, the story is that Walt died on his way UP the mountain. But, where was his camping gear? There's a lot of stuff that doesn't add up.
There's a whole thread on Gassler that talks about this, somewhere on this site, with a lot more detail.
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Post by Wiz »

SC,
Oops, just saw your reply. That all makes sense. I never saw that episode. I stand corrected on whatever I said that you just contradicted, if anything.
S.C.
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Post by S.C. »

Right, Wiz. There is. It has been two years... I think... since it was discussed...

But Ron Feldman posted that he knew who it was that Don Shade saw that was sneaking around the area where Gassler was found - and indicated he (Ron) didn't think it was a big deal. In the Unsolved Mysteries program, Don said the man matched the description Tom Kollenborn gave of the fake Roland Gassler. Did he? Or did Don just say that for the program?

Thomas Glover discussed the event with Don and said Don was "spooked" by the guy. And implied he (Don) knew who the man was. But was he the same guy Tom Kollenborn saw claiming to be Roland Gassler? Or is it a different person? Whatever the case, Don was scared and would not tell Glover the guys name.

When that topic was discussed back a couple of years ago, Ron posted the guy's name on the forum (I think he said the guys name was Mitch) and indicated he had no idea why Don would have been so paranoid about the guy. It was proabably a coincidence that he was there then - and probably kept going for the same reason Don did: so as not to be too involved and have the authorities question and question him.

That is not to say someone else could have come by earlier and rummaged through Gasslers stuff and found the gold. (If he had gold...) Why go through the trouble of later pretending to be Roland Gassler?

Well, maybe he realized what Gassler had - rich ore - and that he wanted more - and heard Gassler had left a map and a manuscript with Kollenborn and Corbin. So, the ruse. That is, afterall, why he (the fake Roland) showed up. He wanted his "dad's" manuscript.

There is also controversey over whether Gassler died going in - or coming out. Cases can be made both ways. However, if he really had gold - and the fake Roland Gassler got it somehow - then Gassler must have died coming out.

If he died going in, then he would have had no gold - and the fake Roland used some other ore (non Superstition ore) as "bait" to have Tom Kollenborn "warm up to him." Again, to get the manuscript. And the ore could have looked "close" to decriptions of LDM ore - and Tom , not having a testing lab handy, only assumed it "looked" to be similar.

To answer "Is Tom Kollenborn's word worth anything?" If you mean in thinking the Gassler gold shown him by the fake Roland might have been similar to LDM ore? Yes. Tom has a degree in mining geology. Plus being a historian associated with Superstition mining - has, no doubt, seen lots and lots of ore. So, I would say "yes." I think I would trust a statement like that from him.

Yep. It's a big mystery - and we'll never know what really happened.
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

SEE SEE SEE There WIZ; SC You have it all right. We all knew or should have that the ore depicted except the lighter was all fake or borrowed ore. BUT you have all the other fact,s right. I used to see the them on robert stack and later all the time on a&e I think they had it on for a solid week around here one time. I said cook I either read or seen it on tv or somewhere. I had a cook friend who did it for 39 years. He cooked for frank sinatra and dean and the boys in lv. and in lake taho. He cooked for Govenor Jimmy Carter of Georgia. He set up all the big steak houses in Fot Smith Ark. Yet He was just a COOK He loved my ham burgers and my pizza. I wonder what he would have thouht if I called him a chef?? He called himself a cook...He said him and Frank Sinatra got in a fight the first time he cooked a steak for him after that Frank wouldn,t have anyone else cook for him. He got him a week off work so he could cook for Him, Dean and Sammy Davis and several others when they went deer hunting, He said He got up at five oclock every morning and Frank was already up and had the coffe on. He said they were nothing like they make out on t.v. Dean hardly drank. Frank worked on his lines until midnight every nite. The would set around and play poker alot.. Bill
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Post by bill711 »

WIZ; I have read several times you and several others just hiss and spit when mrs Corbins book was published. YOU ran down and bought it and tried to discredit it ever since. I bought her book and I thought she did a very good job. Mrs Corbins book is the first book that I have read that layed out the chain of events and the after efect,s of them.. She was working with what material she had on hand and she say,s so. She explains that she took material from several different sources and lined it out as to what did take place for a fact. She did not claim the material as her own research and findings. She was not writing a research Journal. I am sure that many writers have come out with better book,s now that she opened the door with her infomation. BEFORE HER we had nothing but bullshit. and cow flop. There may have been better and more info. out there BUT The people who had it were sitting on it and not telling anyone anything at all. I wish you well Wiz. Bill :D
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Post by Wiz »

Well, we're all entitled to our opinions, Bill. I never said mine was any more valuable than yours. Nor did I attack you for yours. Helen Corbin seems to me to be a sloppy researcher. She makes statements of fact with absolutely no supporting evidence. If that kind of writing paints a clear picture of the chain of events for you, great. It left me pretty cold.

To be fair, her first book is one of the better ones on the subject. Which says a lot about the available literature in general.
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Post by bill711 »

WIZ; I was not attacking your opinion or you personally. I just cannot understand why I keep detecting some ire when you and other,s talk about her and her book. I thought it was a good book and alot of what she tell,s in it line up with other info. that I have either read or that I have. I beleive her time line is correct too. I damn well know that all these people including mr,s helen and the boy petrash didn,t know the dutchman all that well either. Herman petrash was fighting mad when He was told that the dutchman,s name was waltz in stead of walzer.Bark didn,t know the dutchman even tho he spit and hissed at him and hunted for the mine after his death. Also everytime the dutchman went to the out house he was not going after another burro load of gold. Bill
Joe Ribaudo
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No Need To Look Farther

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

You can wait for the boys to cover this information again, or you can just read this thread. :lol:

Joe Ribaudo
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