Bill made an observation in one of his posts which caught my eye.
I have not gone back to quote him directly but he said something like:
The indians did not cover any mines. They didn't have the resources to do something like that.
One of the more accepted stories is that the apaches had buried the mines over a winter season leaving one open simply because it was so inaccesible. Thinking about what Bill had written how could a tribe survive if they spent a half or even a quarter of a year covering holes. Especially considering that their rancheros had been destroyed by that time.
Peter?
Covering the mines
This is a tough one to answer but I will make an educated guess.
It is my opinion that the Mexicans got kicked out of the mountains not once, but twice: once in 1848-ish, the second time in 1864-ish. During the 40s-mid60s time frame the Apache were more than capable of sustaining an operation that might cover over whatever mines and prospects dotted the landscape. In the 1840s there were very few Anglos in the territory, certainly not any that would pose a threat. Up until the end of the Civil War
the Apache pretty much came and went as they pleased, again because of of the War, there was little to impede them. Their rancherias werent destroyed until the early 1870s. And , of course, this refers to the few Yavapais or Pinalenos that used the Superstitions as a base of operations.
Now the question is, did the Apache cover over any open shafts, but leave one open in order to retrieve gold in the future? At this stage of the game this is of course, impossible to accurately answer. My theory is that the tale became garbled in the telling. Perhaps some shafts were covered over in the 1840s time frame, but the area the Mexicans were working in the 1860s was pretty much left as is...thus being handed down to us as all the shafts covered save one. I am quite certain that the Mexican party of the 1860s was working the area that the LDM is located in...and anecdotal accounts point to the fact that that mine was not covered over or if it was whoever did so didnt do such a great job.
You folks who are interested in the LDM should think through the time frame carefully. It is one of the keys to solving the puzzle.
P
It is my opinion that the Mexicans got kicked out of the mountains not once, but twice: once in 1848-ish, the second time in 1864-ish. During the 40s-mid60s time frame the Apache were more than capable of sustaining an operation that might cover over whatever mines and prospects dotted the landscape. In the 1840s there were very few Anglos in the territory, certainly not any that would pose a threat. Up until the end of the Civil War
the Apache pretty much came and went as they pleased, again because of of the War, there was little to impede them. Their rancherias werent destroyed until the early 1870s. And , of course, this refers to the few Yavapais or Pinalenos that used the Superstitions as a base of operations.
Now the question is, did the Apache cover over any open shafts, but leave one open in order to retrieve gold in the future? At this stage of the game this is of course, impossible to accurately answer. My theory is that the tale became garbled in the telling. Perhaps some shafts were covered over in the 1840s time frame, but the area the Mexicans were working in the 1860s was pretty much left as is...thus being handed down to us as all the shafts covered save one. I am quite certain that the Mexican party of the 1860s was working the area that the LDM is located in...and anecdotal accounts point to the fact that that mine was not covered over or if it was whoever did so didnt do such a great job.
You folks who are interested in the LDM should think through the time frame carefully. It is one of the keys to solving the puzzle.
P
Resources
Peter,
So you think that they had the resources to cover the mines and still be able to weather a harsh summer?
As I understand the legend the motivation was to cover the mines so that others (anglos and mexicans) would have no reason to enter the mountains which were sacred to many different tribes. Belief is an incredible motivator as is starvation.
Since the arrastas discovered point to mining activity within the mountains the mines which fed the arrastas disappeared for a reason. Just hard to understand how a tribe (or tribes) of people could pull the resources away from the basic necessities of life to cover mines.
So you think that they had the resources to cover the mines and still be able to weather a harsh summer?
As I understand the legend the motivation was to cover the mines so that others (anglos and mexicans) would have no reason to enter the mountains which were sacred to many different tribes. Belief is an incredible motivator as is starvation.
Since the arrastas discovered point to mining activity within the mountains the mines which fed the arrastas disappeared for a reason. Just hard to understand how a tribe (or tribes) of people could pull the resources away from the basic necessities of life to cover mines.
Covvered Mines
Knun, Peter1
Lets say they did leave just one mine open for later use, which one do you think they would choose and why?
Rocha
Lets say they did leave just one mine open for later use, which one do you think they would choose and why?
Rocha
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Joe Ribaudo
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Time Frame
Knun,
Peter is on the money here. You need to study the habits of the Apache and what was going on in Arizona and Mexico during the years in question.
Mexico is important because that is where the Apache picked up
most of the "basic necessities of life" when they were at peace with the Americans.
The Apache, as far as I know, never settled into the Superstitions on a permanent basis. If that is true, I doubt they were foolish enough to spend the summers there. Only white men would make that mistake.
The Apache, like all other nomadic peoples, moved with the game and weather.
There are any number of books which deal with the long term history of the Apache. I would recommend "Apache Chronicle: The Story of the People" by, John Upton Terrell first. A less known and possibly harder to find book, would be "The Apache Indians: Raiders of the Southwest" by, Gordon C. Baldwin. For a look inside Apache culture, "An Apache Life-Way: The Economic, Social, & Religious Institutions Of The Chiricahua Indians" by, Morris Edward Opler.
I could easily mention a number of other good books which would explain what the "People" were capable of doing. Given a job to do, and a reason to do it, they could and did move mountains. You may recall that I have said some "less than kind" things about the Apaches. To get close to the rose, you must occasionaly draw blood with a thorn, or in this case a thorny statement. I know them well, and believe as an Apache once said "that we were all Apache in a former life". I have always believed that to be true. The Apache felt themselves to be ready for the hard times if they had knife at hand, even if it belonged to someone else.
Thanks for taking the hint. You are the "new blood" that will put life back into this forum.
Respectfully,
Joe
Peter is on the money here. You need to study the habits of the Apache and what was going on in Arizona and Mexico during the years in question.
Mexico is important because that is where the Apache picked up
most of the "basic necessities of life" when they were at peace with the Americans.The Apache, as far as I know, never settled into the Superstitions on a permanent basis. If that is true, I doubt they were foolish enough to spend the summers there. Only white men would make that mistake.
The Apache, like all other nomadic peoples, moved with the game and weather.
There are any number of books which deal with the long term history of the Apache. I would recommend "Apache Chronicle: The Story of the People" by, John Upton Terrell first. A less known and possibly harder to find book, would be "The Apache Indians: Raiders of the Southwest" by, Gordon C. Baldwin. For a look inside Apache culture, "An Apache Life-Way: The Economic, Social, & Religious Institutions Of The Chiricahua Indians" by, Morris Edward Opler.
I could easily mention a number of other good books which would explain what the "People" were capable of doing. Given a job to do, and a reason to do it, they could and did move mountains. You may recall that I have said some "less than kind" things about the Apaches. To get close to the rose, you must occasionaly draw blood with a thorn, or in this case a thorny statement. I know them well, and believe as an Apache once said "that we were all Apache in a former life". I have always believed that to be true. The Apache felt themselves to be ready for the hard times if they had knife at hand, even if it belonged to someone else.
Thanks for taking the hint. You are the "new blood" that will put life back into this forum.
Respectfully,
Joe
Knun,
If we are to believe the "legend": women and children labored for one winter covering over the shafts.....not one "harsh summer". I reckon they could have handled a summer in any event. Men were men back then you know. Course no self-respecting Apache male of warrior age would be doing any sort of manual labor back then.
As far as I know the Superstitions were not "sacred" to many tribes. Some tribes held the mountains in superstitious dread such as the Pima or Papago. Apache related and allied tribes such as the Yavapais or Pinaleno Apache would use the Superstitions to raid out of occasionally. Another group might enter the mountains for religous purposes, etc...
It was most likely Yavapais that made up the bulk of the force that "massacred" the Mexican miners in the 1860s.
Rocha,
If one tries to reconcile the accounts of covered over mines with what was later found by Waltz and Deering something doesnt add up. It looks to me like Waltzs mine, whether you beleive the Petrasch or Holmes version, wasnt covered over (at least not too well). By the time Deering stumbled onto the scene in '85 two shafts at least were clearly visible if his account is to be beleived.
P
If we are to believe the "legend": women and children labored for one winter covering over the shafts.....not one "harsh summer". I reckon they could have handled a summer in any event. Men were men back then you know. Course no self-respecting Apache male of warrior age would be doing any sort of manual labor back then.
As far as I know the Superstitions were not "sacred" to many tribes. Some tribes held the mountains in superstitious dread such as the Pima or Papago. Apache related and allied tribes such as the Yavapais or Pinaleno Apache would use the Superstitions to raid out of occasionally. Another group might enter the mountains for religous purposes, etc...
It was most likely Yavapais that made up the bulk of the force that "massacred" the Mexican miners in the 1860s.
Rocha,
If one tries to reconcile the accounts of covered over mines with what was later found by Waltz and Deering something doesnt add up. It looks to me like Waltzs mine, whether you beleive the Petrasch or Holmes version, wasnt covered over (at least not too well). By the time Deering stumbled onto the scene in '85 two shafts at least were clearly visible if his account is to be beleived.
P
Resources
Let me back up a tad on this one.
The legend is that the apache (?) woman spent a winter season covering up the mexican mines while the men (in charge of this acctivity) made and drank tiswin.
I did not mean to imply that they worked during the summer. My question was, if this can be true, how did the tribe survive the harsh summer after the woman covered mines all winter.
If a tribe could allow people (even a single person) to go to cover mines and still be able to provide for the summer then they had extra labor available and excess. That as far as I know is not consistant with apache rancherias (did i spell it right this time).
The legend is that the apache (?) woman spent a winter season covering up the mexican mines while the men (in charge of this acctivity) made and drank tiswin.
I did not mean to imply that they worked during the summer. My question was, if this can be true, how did the tribe survive the harsh summer after the woman covered mines all winter.
If a tribe could allow people (even a single person) to go to cover mines and still be able to provide for the summer then they had extra labor available and excess. That as far as I know is not consistant with apache rancherias (did i spell it right this time).
Knun,
The Apache were not a desert people. They were at home in the desert and could survive the rigors of its environment, but they were first and foremost a mountain people. Come summer time you would find them up in the Dragoons, or White Mtns or in the Mogollons. Only the white-eyes are dumb enough to live in the desert during the summer months.
Folks look at the Apache as a whole and call them a "tribe", but they were split into many different tribes which in turn were split into various bands and sub-bands...depending on their geographical location and which leader they threw their lot in with. The "tribe" with interests in the Superstitions was not necessarily the one that was closest to the mountains geographically. This "tribe" that would have been interested in covering up the shafts was most likely just a small group, or a splinter band if you will, that had interests in the mountains and decided to cover over the areas where obvious mining activity took place.
I doubt the warriors spent the entire winter on a tiswin drunk (course I spent entire semesters imbibing during my college days..so who knows...). They were more likely to be provisioning the work party. This is all conjecture of course, there might not have been ANY covering over of shafts or pits at all.
P
The Apache were not a desert people. They were at home in the desert and could survive the rigors of its environment, but they were first and foremost a mountain people. Come summer time you would find them up in the Dragoons, or White Mtns or in the Mogollons. Only the white-eyes are dumb enough to live in the desert during the summer months.
Folks look at the Apache as a whole and call them a "tribe", but they were split into many different tribes which in turn were split into various bands and sub-bands...depending on their geographical location and which leader they threw their lot in with. The "tribe" with interests in the Superstitions was not necessarily the one that was closest to the mountains geographically. This "tribe" that would have been interested in covering up the shafts was most likely just a small group, or a splinter band if you will, that had interests in the mountains and decided to cover over the areas where obvious mining activity took place.
I doubt the warriors spent the entire winter on a tiswin drunk (course I spent entire semesters imbibing during my college days..so who knows...). They were more likely to be provisioning the work party. This is all conjecture of course, there might not have been ANY covering over of shafts or pits at all.
P
Joe Deering reported finding a tunnel that had been walled up, but some of the stones had settled. (Asked if it could have caved in, he said no, he was enough of a miner to know the difference). This is exactly how Waltz had described leaving the mine in his deathbed confession to Dick Holmes. Would the Apache have covered the mine in that way? I always heard they filled the shafts in so well that you could drive a wagon over them, using some kind of cement made out of blood or something.
The Apache women did the work. My experience says that women are usually quite thorough about their work, so I'm having a problem with both their leaving one mine open because it's so hard to get to (for who? certainly not the Apache!), and/or their just walling one up so that it would show in a few years.
Just thinking out loud.
The Apache women did the work. My experience says that women are usually quite thorough about their work, so I'm having a problem with both their leaving one mine open because it's so hard to get to (for who? certainly not the Apache!), and/or their just walling one up so that it would show in a few years.
Just thinking out loud.
Wiz
All the accounts that I have come across concerning covering over the mine by Apache refers to shafts, not tunnels. The Holmes account also refers to a shaft covered over by Waltz, but doesnt reference a tunnel (at least not in the account that most folks are aware of). Yet you have tunnels referenced in the Deering/Soldiers tale, the Petrasch version etc...
Then of course you have the "Geronimos Cave" clue..so was that also referencing a tunnel?
Did Deering stumble upon a tunnel and covered over shafts above that had settled some over the past 20 years since they were covered by Apache? Well, sometime in the interim (most likely in the late 60s early 70s) Waltz worked the mine so it was he( or the Mexican peons he stumbled over if the Holmes account is to be beleived) who must have uncovered the shaft if they were covered over by Apache originally.
If the shafts were covered over thoroughly by Apache, just how did Waltz find and uncover them by his lonesome in essentially what was "Indian Country" in the early 70s? Might lend some logical credence to the Holmes account. It would be a lot easier to find someone who had already uncovered and cleaned out the shafts ( in the form of the Mexican miners) rather than find them on your own in that country.
P
All the accounts that I have come across concerning covering over the mine by Apache refers to shafts, not tunnels. The Holmes account also refers to a shaft covered over by Waltz, but doesnt reference a tunnel (at least not in the account that most folks are aware of). Yet you have tunnels referenced in the Deering/Soldiers tale, the Petrasch version etc...
Then of course you have the "Geronimos Cave" clue..so was that also referencing a tunnel?
Did Deering stumble upon a tunnel and covered over shafts above that had settled some over the past 20 years since they were covered by Apache? Well, sometime in the interim (most likely in the late 60s early 70s) Waltz worked the mine so it was he( or the Mexican peons he stumbled over if the Holmes account is to be beleived) who must have uncovered the shaft if they were covered over by Apache originally.
If the shafts were covered over thoroughly by Apache, just how did Waltz find and uncover them by his lonesome in essentially what was "Indian Country" in the early 70s? Might lend some logical credence to the Holmes account. It would be a lot easier to find someone who had already uncovered and cleaned out the shafts ( in the form of the Mexican miners) rather than find them on your own in that country.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Yes
DED,
In this case, as Peter has pointed out, the Apache would not have had any problem with this task. Motivation was the most important factor, and I believe they had it. They believed they were doing the work that their God required of them.
Respectfully,
Joe
In this case, as Peter has pointed out, the Apache would not have had any problem with this task. Motivation was the most important factor, and I believe they had it. They believed they were doing the work that their God required of them.
Respectfully,
Joe
Who can say? My own opinion is that the shafts covered over were not as extensive or large as most folks beleive and that the task could easily have been handled by a small band camping out for a month or so.
Humor me for a minute and assume the Holmes account of Waltz finding the mine is correct. Waltz finds 3 Mexicans working the shafts (Peraltas in the story but I feel more likely peons that survived the '64 massacre). If the shafts were these big huge affairs I imagine it would have been quite a task to dig them out. If I was an Apache I would have been dumping every big boulder I could find down the hole...just how did 3 men dig out a shaft filled with boulders and maybe 30-50-70 feet deep? What I am getting at here is that perhaps the shafts werent as deep or as extensive as some think (Waltz himself gave a depth of 12 feet in one account)...thus making it a rather simple affair for Indians to cover them over.
P
Humor me for a minute and assume the Holmes account of Waltz finding the mine is correct. Waltz finds 3 Mexicans working the shafts (Peraltas in the story but I feel more likely peons that survived the '64 massacre). If the shafts were these big huge affairs I imagine it would have been quite a task to dig them out. If I was an Apache I would have been dumping every big boulder I could find down the hole...just how did 3 men dig out a shaft filled with boulders and maybe 30-50-70 feet deep? What I am getting at here is that perhaps the shafts werent as deep or as extensive as some think (Waltz himself gave a depth of 12 feet in one account)...thus making it a rather simple affair for Indians to cover them over.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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How Big?
Mexican miners seldom made there excavations larger than was required to hand work the vein being followed. There is an excellent example of that style of excavation on the east side of the Apache Trail north of Goldfield. It is only a few hundred feet off of the highway and on the top of a cut which is less than fifty or sixty feet above the road. At least that is how I remember it. Been a few years. 
Respectfully,
Joe
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Why?
Rochha,
"Lets say they did leave just one mine open for later use, which one do you think they would choose and why?"
The idea that the Apache would leave one mine open for there own use, is in direct conflict with there beliefs concerning gold being taken out of "Mother Earth". It would never have been acceptable, in their minds, to dig gold from the ground. Using gold that the "others" had already removed was another matter. I would say, it's a grey area. Kind of like using a metal detector in the Supes.....grey area.
Respectfully,
Joe
"Lets say they did leave just one mine open for later use, which one do you think they would choose and why?"
The idea that the Apache would leave one mine open for there own use, is in direct conflict with there beliefs concerning gold being taken out of "Mother Earth". It would never have been acceptable, in their minds, to dig gold from the ground. Using gold that the "others" had already removed was another matter. I would say, it's a grey area. Kind of like using a metal detector in the Supes.....grey area.
Respectfully,
Joe
Covered Mines
Joe,
What if the mine they were using or left open was one that had gold nuggest hid in it that were allready taken from mother earth elsewhere?
That would fit in with their beliefs wouldn't it?
Lets' say for a moment that is what they did, could that one be the Lost Dutchman?
Rochha
What if the mine they were using or left open was one that had gold nuggest hid in it that were allready taken from mother earth elsewhere?
That would fit in with their beliefs wouldn't it?
Lets' say for a moment that is what they did, could that one be the Lost Dutchman?
Rochha
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Mabee I'm lookin at this way to simply. But I would assume a handfull of strong indian lads could cover up a few mines a week. All it takes is a line of guys handing large rocks to one another, and tossing them into the opening. (Mostly Horizontal entrances right ?). And after the rocks are on, they probly just slammed some sticks and as much grass/etc as they could. Then a bunch of sand (not like they couldn't of had shovels). Were talking about 150 years later here? Give it 5 years or so, and theres not gonna be any sign of where a mineshaft once was. What i'm saying is that i think its relativly simple and quick to cover up mineshafts. No tribe would have to devote more than a couple days per mine. Thats my opinion though.
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i suppose it depends which version of events you accept...if we assume the 7 or so mines and the large mining party etc and not only the filling in of the mines ..but the blending in the of the scenery ...the obliteration of the mining camps(s)..it would seem a huge undertaking to me...thats why i doubt that loose disciplined band of apaches wouldindeed succeed or indeed evenundertake the chore. but on the other hand if it were just one "mine" as peter says ...the task of course would be much easier..and eveneasier if said "mine" was not a mine intrue sense of the word...but instead a small outcrop...the size of which...both in size and in richness has been grossly exaggerated thro the years. we all know certain parts of the legend are grossly overstated.. but rarely is it mentioned that the basic "truth" i.e the amount,richness etc might also be an exaggerated story. maybe im pouring cold water on the legend...but i think that possibility must be at least considered....i think ibetter shut up
Joe,
Thanks for the information and the references to books which may be helpful. I plan on looking into one in the near future. Which would you recommend to start with?
Peter,
I have done no research concerning the indian aspect of the Ducthman so your input is extremely helpful. I had no idea the apache bands summered in the mountains. (I guess "Snowbirds" have been in the valley alot longer than I thought!) I had assumed they lived throughout the area...including the deserts. How about a little more info......what actually does a rancheria mean. I envision a small permanent settlement. Is that a correct assumption. I also was under the assumption that there was a year round presence in the Superstitions.
As far as the mines go....My take is that the miners had an extremely large party in the mountains. Over a hundred people is my guess. These miners used horsepower, manual drills, shovels, picks etc. for the entire winter to extract as much ore as possible. There had been previous trips as well. I'm sure they used the traditional method of following the vein. This would have minimized the effort to conceal the mines but still that many people mining for that long a period of time. It would have taken quite an effort to conceal all they had done.
Waltz's description of a stepped, cone shaped mine with a chain on a pole to steady ones self seems like a pretty big job in itself. Could be that one was left open due, not only to locale, but because of the size of the task at hand.
Thanks for the information and the references to books which may be helpful. I plan on looking into one in the near future. Which would you recommend to start with?
Peter,
I have done no research concerning the indian aspect of the Ducthman so your input is extremely helpful. I had no idea the apache bands summered in the mountains. (I guess "Snowbirds" have been in the valley alot longer than I thought!) I had assumed they lived throughout the area...including the deserts. How about a little more info......what actually does a rancheria mean. I envision a small permanent settlement. Is that a correct assumption. I also was under the assumption that there was a year round presence in the Superstitions.
As far as the mines go....My take is that the miners had an extremely large party in the mountains. Over a hundred people is my guess. These miners used horsepower, manual drills, shovels, picks etc. for the entire winter to extract as much ore as possible. There had been previous trips as well. I'm sure they used the traditional method of following the vein. This would have minimized the effort to conceal the mines but still that many people mining for that long a period of time. It would have taken quite an effort to conceal all they had done.
Waltz's description of a stepped, cone shaped mine with a chain on a pole to steady ones self seems like a pretty big job in itself. Could be that one was left open due, not only to locale, but because of the size of the task at hand.
Knun,
A rancheria was an Apache settlement usually located near a water source, hunting area, or food gathering place. Settlements generally consisted of wickiups (brush shelters) that could just be abandoned whenever a camp needed to be moved. These Rancherias were never permanent. Rancherias during war time would be long on supplies, warriors and horses, short on women and such.
I doubt the Superstitions ever sported a year-round Apache presence. The mountains were entered as a refuge during times of war, mainly by Yavapais and Pinalenos....and used by another group for religious purposes.
I beleive the mining party of the 1860s was relatively small...perhaps 60-75 men in total. Still, I imagine that number of people could do quite a bit of mining if they knew what they were doing.
This chain and pole clue has popped up in a number of places. I cant help but wonder if it was not describing an arrastra rather than a means of entrance and egress to a mine shaft...and that the clue has simply been corrupted over the years. But....... who knows for sure.
P
A rancheria was an Apache settlement usually located near a water source, hunting area, or food gathering place. Settlements generally consisted of wickiups (brush shelters) that could just be abandoned whenever a camp needed to be moved. These Rancherias were never permanent. Rancherias during war time would be long on supplies, warriors and horses, short on women and such.
I doubt the Superstitions ever sported a year-round Apache presence. The mountains were entered as a refuge during times of war, mainly by Yavapais and Pinalenos....and used by another group for religious purposes.
I beleive the mining party of the 1860s was relatively small...perhaps 60-75 men in total. Still, I imagine that number of people could do quite a bit of mining if they knew what they were doing.
This chain and pole clue has popped up in a number of places. I cant help but wonder if it was not describing an arrastra rather than a means of entrance and egress to a mine shaft...and that the clue has simply been corrupted over the years. But....... who knows for sure.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Apache Rancherias
Knun,
Peter has given you a fairly good description of an Apache Rancheria, but
considering the direction your questions seem to be going, I would recommend:
1. "The Apache Diaries" by Grenville Goodwin & Neil Goodwin.
2. "Grenville Goodwin Among the Western Apache: Letters from the field"
3. "Apache Chronicle" by John Upton Terrell.
4. "The Apache Indians: Raiders of the Southwest" by, Gordon C. Baldwin. Dr. Baldwin was an instructor in archaeology at the University of Arizona. That was one of a number of positions he held in his field and he was well respected by his peers.
Good hunting.
Rochha,
The Dutchman had ore, not nuggets. I doubt the Apache would take any gold out of the ground or out of a hole in the ground... same thing. I just gave Knun lots of sources for this information.
Peter,
We seem to be repeating each other. All of the evidence (history) available, shows that the Apache avoided gold, as a rule.
You said:
"I beleive the mining party of the 1860s was relatively small...perhaps 60-75 men in total. Still, I imagine that number of people could do quite a bit of mining if they knew what they were doing."
I understand that you said "I believe" but what do you base that belief on?
Feel free to ignore that question, if it is too intrusive. I know better than to ask for any possible source.
Respectfully,
Joe
Peter has given you a fairly good description of an Apache Rancheria, but
considering the direction your questions seem to be going, I would recommend:
1. "The Apache Diaries" by Grenville Goodwin & Neil Goodwin.
2. "Grenville Goodwin Among the Western Apache: Letters from the field"
3. "Apache Chronicle" by John Upton Terrell.
4. "The Apache Indians: Raiders of the Southwest" by, Gordon C. Baldwin. Dr. Baldwin was an instructor in archaeology at the University of Arizona. That was one of a number of positions he held in his field and he was well respected by his peers.
Good hunting.
Rochha,
The Dutchman had ore, not nuggets. I doubt the Apache would take any gold out of the ground or out of a hole in the ground... same thing. I just gave Knun lots of sources for this information.
Peter,
We seem to be repeating each other.
All of the evidence (history) available, shows that the Apache avoided gold, as a rule. You said:
"I beleive the mining party of the 1860s was relatively small...perhaps 60-75 men in total. Still, I imagine that number of people could do quite a bit of mining if they knew what they were doing."
I understand that you said "I believe" but what do you base that belief on?
Feel free to ignore that question, if it is too intrusive. I know better than to ask for any possible source.
Respectfully,
Joe
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- Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2002 5:01 pm
I wonder why the Indians would feel it necessary to cover the mines at all? As long as the Whites believed there was a gold mine in the Superstitions they would still look for it, covered up or not. It's not like the Apaches were going to issue a press release saying "Don't bother looking for the mine,we covered it up and you couldn't find it if you were standing on it" I probably don't think like an Indian,but I wouldn't worry about covering it up. Just keep an eye on it,and if anyone finds it you kill them,take their supplies and weapons,dispose of the bodies-problem solved! Just my .02 cents worth. :)
Re: covering
Can we quote you on that?bill711 wrote:...I aint talking....