The Lost Tayopa Mine

Joe Ribaudo · Post by **Joe Ribaudo** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:10 pm

I imagine there are a few of you snorting: What does the "Lost Tayopa Mine" have to do with the LDM or the Superstitions? Perhaps nothing.
Than again, you might just find those pesky Peraltas popping up in that legend too. No doubt some of you know what I am talking about, but I have never heard it mentioned on the forum. Memory is bad, so I will wait to see if any of you will comment. Aurum, Peter, Dr. Glover and S.C.
should have run across this sometime in their past. It would not surprise me if the entire forum chimes in.

Respectfully,

Joe

bill711 · Post by **bill711** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:35 pm

Rose claimed to have found it. It,s bell were said tobe heard in alittle village where a 90 year old man was supposed to have Killed the last wild apache in 1918. All I can think of right now. Bill

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:02 pm

The last of the Bronco Apache may have lingered as long as the mid-1930s in the Sierra Madres.

I have enough problems trying to unravel the tangled ball of twine that is The Dutchman. I think I will take a pass on the Tayopa subject.......

bill711 · Post by **bill711** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:51 am

Petier; I understood that was where the old mexi killed the Apache, that,s in old mexi. It could have been later than 1918 Petier But I knew it was late. I didn,t make the claim, The old 90 year old mexi and the writer did, I don,t remember the writter,s name BUT he treasure hunted all over the world all his life. Mostly old mexi and south america. He was well aquainted with the tamahara indi,s of mexico. He did archaology work too. I sure he,s probley dead now. He got in on the ground floor in the 20,s thru the 50,s. He doctored indian,s some times. He set a chief,s son,s leg. He said they were amazed that the boy lived that they usually died from broke bones. They knew what he looked for and before he left them they gave him several bag,s of gold ore. He asked them if they would show him the mine it came from and they confered and said yes, next morning. They put him on his mule and put a bandana over his eyes. He said they lead him for several hours and told him to uncover his eyes and pointed him to a cliff across the canyon and he looked thru his binoc,s and he could see a mine with it looked like some old spanish armer like the old helmet and skull and breast plate. The village gate where he stayed in mexi with the 90 year old was supposed tobe from the toyopa mission . It was said on some days you could hear the bells of tayopa. This is all I remember of what I read in a book 30 or 40 years ago. OH yawl His pardner was named Ray. I remember his name. He wasn,t looking for the Tayopa mine he wanted to find a famous gem stone mine that was mislayed. BUT if he found the Tayopa I do not think he would have sneezed at it. I cannot remember the writer,s name. I don,t think I have the mag. any more. He did show plenty gold though that he had found and some interesting thing,s. WHEN they show the gold you have to believe they are serious and know about what they are doing. MEL FISHER was just starting out at that time and more people spit and hissed at him than believed him. MEL was trying to raise money then. I wanted to go join him so bad but I couldn,t. I would have worked for nothing. Bill

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:57 am

>>He doctored indian,s some times. He set a chief,s son,s leg. He said they were amazed that the boy lived that they usually died from broke bones. They knew what he looked for and before he left them they gave him several bag,s of gold ore. He asked them if they would show him the mine it came from and they confered and said yes, next morning. They put him on his mule and put a bandana over his eyes. He said they lead him for several hours and told him to uncover his eyes and pointed him to a cliff across the canyon and he looked thru his binoc,s and he could see a mine <<

Bill

Interesting bit of history up above. Folks familiar with the many stories relating to the LDM might say they have heard that one before. As a refresher, there was this doctor named Abraham Thorne......

Course I reckon that the same thing could have happened to two seperate people...but its curious how closely the tales are related. Be interesting to know if they had a common source.

P

Joe Ribaudo · Post by **Joe Ribaudo** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:01 am

Peter and Bill,

Over 50 views and only two people responded. I guess everyone agrees with you Peter. The Tayopa mine has nothing to do with the LDM but it is possible that the Peraltas had something to do with the Tayopa.

[In 1910 a Mexican by the name of Marcos Peralta appeared at the Monte Cristo mine operated by the Dia Claro Mining Company on a tributary of the Yaqui River in eastern sonora. He thought he had some information that would interest mining men. He was not mistaken.
According to his story, while he was riding by a ruined house several months before, he heard groans. Halting to investigate, he found a very old man, sick and starved. He took him home and with the help of his wife nursed him to recovery.
When the old man was strong enough to be about, he said, "I can never repay you for your kindness, but I will give you something that may be of value."
Thereupon he untied a buckskin string from his neck and drew out from under his shirt a buckskin bag. He opened the bag and took from it a sheet of dirty, frazzled paper on which, however, the details of a map could still be made out.
"When I was but eighteen years old," the old man explained, " I became caretaker for a church. It was an ancient church, built by the first Spaniards who came into the Sierra Madre. The padres were good to me, and one of them taught me to read and write. As soon as I began working in the church, I saw how the balcony was ornamented with wrought silver. Then I learned that more silver-much silver-was concealed in the church vault. I was sworn to secrecy and I kept the secret, but I could not keep from wondering where all this silver came from.
One day I was cleaning out the chests and cabinets in the sacristy. They were full of records, very old, about births, baptisms, and the like, and because I had learned to read I often stopped to look into them. Then I came to a document different from all the others. It set down so many ingots of gold delivered, so many silver bars delivered. It gave the names of the masters of the pack trains who brought this wealth, also the dates. Also put down was where the metals came from. The place was Tayopa, and there was a clear map to Tayopa."

While this story has nothing to do with the LDM, it may have something to do with another story of treasure in the Superstitions. Some will see a possible connection, others will not. It seems we may need another story to bring a glimmer of the truth of a Peralta connection here. "from the mouths of two....."

Is there another "Peralta" hidden in the legends of Tayopa? Not exactly.

There is another story. It ends with this: "Now you understand" he said, "Why it is I do not go and possess any of the Tayopa money. Also you will understand why I do not tell you the name of the hacienda south of Dolores. And listen! My directions are not precise. And Don Miguel - may his soul rest in peace with the Mother of Jesus! - had another name.
Yet I have told the truth."

Could "someone" have brought the treasure of Tayopa to the Superstitions?

Respectfully,

Joe

bill711 · Post by **bill711** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:10 pm

JOE; I think that I have read somewhere that there was a church site with an old rusted up bell in the superstitions??? I remember some man claimed he went down a gully downhill from the church looking for water and found a spring. He said he saw a cave over by a triangler rock and went in an found several rows of gold and silver bars, left and could not find it again. I personally think that several different groups over 2 or 3 hundred years mined gold,silver and used the supers. for storage places or hidding places for things from other areas. Bill PETIER; I was talking about the sierra madras that,s over in mexico, you just picked a small part out and poo pooed. The man didn,t claim to be a brain surgeon or anything. BUT he did have enough sense to carry a first aid kit with a few supplies in it and get to know and make friends with the people around him. He knew many times they will help you if they like you. I did SAY he showed alot of pictures of piles of gold, silver and other precious artifacts that he had found, He had old aztex gold nose rings, ear spools arm bands by the PILE,S Old pirate loot he had found. Many things. I believe when a man shows it you have to take his word for it, that he knows of which he speaks. BILL

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:17 pm

Bill

I did not "poo-poo" anything. I simply pointed out that the main elements in the story you told and the Thorne tale were remarkably similar.

P

Joe Ribaudo · Post by **Joe Ribaudo** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:19 pm

Bill,

I have to agree with Peter. He only made a comment that was quite relevant to your post. It was what everyone else was thinking, only Peter got there first. Not the slightest hint of "poo poo" or even the platter.

The source for my two "stories" is a well know book, copyright 1928.

Respectfully,

Joe

bill711 · Post by **bill711** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:53 pm

JOE and PETIER; Maybe it,s the damn cold assed rain we,ve had for 3 days now. We did need the rain BUT not all at once. I have read the Thorne yarn. I read 4/5 different acounts each was different. The only thing similiar in all of them was he was a doctor,gold, and a tall peak. I told you that I do not have anything at our new one +million dollar library. I have read the Michell, penfield, Jamison, Ward. Ron,s zig zag. and a few other,s. Mostly the early treasure mag., and old west, true west, wild west. I have read a lot of yarn,s about someone finding the ldm BUT they never produced any Gold for some reason they choose not to work it. If an old fart like Jacab Walzt can take rich gold from a mine, I have to believe an able body young man can too. BEFORE You snicker, I had a friend tell me about his grandfather and his 2 brothers coming to ft. smith, ark. in the 1800,s. 2 brothers stayed at fort smith and the other kept going west. They never heard from him again. I was reading one of the mag,s one evening and he came in and laughed at me reading the mag. He told me about his uncle and said one of his kinfolks had wrote one of the mag,s asking about his uncle, if anyone knew of him. A man from Montana wrote about his uncle being buried on his ranch, that he was killed in a early day hold up and shoot out. His uncle and 2 friend had tried to rob. a bank and were road down by a posse and killed. We talked awhile and he went home. Later that night I was laying in bed, I decided I would read awhile I rummaged down to the bottom of the pile of the mag,s by my bed. I picked one out and looked in it for a story to read, and decided on the 1st Montana train robbery. I storted to read and damn right there it was about his uncle,s robbery. He was working as a sheep herder and he and 2 others decided to rob a bank. They got on a train and change their minds and robbed the train instead. They just got a few dollars and got away. The train went on in and a posse got on there trail. The posse caught up with them as they were about to camp. They had a shootout and were making a get away one of the boys got shot off his horse. The posse chased them for about 6 months an caught them again and his uncle got shot in the butt and the bullet hit bone and went down his leg and out his thiegh. He rode until he gave out the posse caught him. They took him to a ranch house where he died a few hours later he had lost too much blood. I had to call the old man over the next day and give him the mag. It was a story in itself the way it happened. Joe I never read the two tales of 1928 story. We were poor when I was young at school we had to settle for petier rabbit and nancy drew. I did use that coloring book with the horse on it about 1949 or so. You got me curious about that story now. We just don,t get the book,s you boys do around here. I ordered some books and things from pro mac and had to pay 4 prices for them. Some were about aliens and some guys dreaming and talking with Jesus like that he did have some funny pic,s in it But didn,t tell anything about them, a real bust. WELL HELL maybe I was just being cranky Petier If so I apologize. ROSE; claimed to have found the mission and said it had alot of gold and silver in the celler. He said he almost died trying to get out. He followed the sounds of the bells from a mission of a village to get out. I guess he didn,t have the balls to go back. When they showed him on the ldm piece he looked like he had fell on hard times. He lived in a huval or shack as we call them around here. He sounded alittle e-radic too. I was real disapointed in him. I would like to hear more from you boys, if you have anything to talk about. even a stubbed toe can be a major thing out in the rough country. Bill

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:39 am

I love the story about the rusted bell. There can't be many places in the Supes where such a story could happen. Maybe around Goldfield?
Any other guesses?

bill711 · Post by **bill711** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:55 am

Laz; In my mind,s eye, I pict,ed the mission or vista with it,s remains of a bell somewhere up LaBargs canyon?? Unless the mountains have moved or the names have moved?? When I read the story of Ward and the Hoss tail. This is a long way from the goldfield area. Bill

Joe Ribaudo · Post by **Joe Ribaudo** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:01 am

Bill and Laz,

No Mission would have ever been built in the Superstitions. You would need to know the history of the Spanish, and the Catholic missionary program to understand why.

Respectfully,

Joe

bill711 · Post by **bill711** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:58 am

Joe; I think that,s what I read in either Ward,s and Hoss the nugget shooter,s manuscript, I only had the last part of it. I read somewhere that by law if there was 8 or more mines that they had to have a church or vista with a Priest on call Joe? They said that the place had long since been dug all to heck by treasure seekers, With only a real rusted piece of a bell left. Bill

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:24 pm

I have no clues...this story is new to me. The "Hoss Tail"
That line provides me with the strongest vibes. Can you give a little detail
about "the Hoss tail"?

Joe Ribaudo · Post by **Joe Ribaudo** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:23 pm

Bill,

I have heard such a story with one major difference. It is not in the Superstitions. The story I heard places such a bell and mission in a canyon north of the Superstitions and the Salt River.

Perhaps that will ring someone else's bell.

Respectfully,

Joe

bill711 · Post by **bill711** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:03 am

Lazarus; I saw him selling gold nuggets at pro mac when they had a piece on the ldm on a&e network. He came from philadelthia I believe. He came to Apachie J. to hunt the ldm mine. I read part of his manuscript in the lost treasure or one of them mag,s. He said something about an old mission in it. Bob Ward I think mentioned it too and I think I remember Tom Kollen. saying something about the mission. Hoss I just call him hosstail. He stayed here and hunt,s gold nuggets for a living I guess. He,s looks like he,s in his 40,s or 50,s. all I know about him. The mission or Vista I read about for every 8 mines. I don,t know when a long time ago. Bill Lazarus I should have said, Where an old mission used tobe. Or a big building with a bell used to be.

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:32 am

Excellent posts!
As I stated, I can't imagine The Supes having many locations where such a story could occur. LaBarge canyon is an odd place...it may be possible.
North of the Verde and Salt confluence...near the base of the McDowell Mountains...perfect location for such a story. For those who do not live in the valley, I'm describing an area now known as Fountain Hills. It's a fairly large community that did not exist thirty-five years ago. It's near water and the Indian Reservation. I have never explored this area. Any comment?

RealdeTayopa · Post by **RealdeTayopa** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:48 pm

K gentlemen, I have Tayopa. I have some 3500 acres covering the Tayopa complex, which includes the Paramo. It is legally titled under Tayopa #200480, with the Paramo under Tayopa 2 #207461. they are adjoning concessions. This can readily be checked in the Mexcan mining office in Chihuahua, or Mexico City. "Secofi.gob.mx"

K Now I expect to hear from you as to why I am not a Milionaire. heheh I have found that it is "one thing" to find them, another "to profit" from your work! snifff.

Start posting!

RealdeTayopa · Post by **RealdeTayopa** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:00 pm

Incidentally I have never found nor heard of an early period bell being of ferrious materiel. Could be, but I am doubtful since Iron was more valuable in the early days of the frontier than Au or Ag. Most were cast of a mixture of Au,Cu, and whatever local metal they could mine, alloy and smelt. Later of course, they did cast them in Iron Alloys. I place Tayopa and the Lost Dutchman mines in the early catagory.

RealdeTayopa · Post by **RealdeTayopa** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:04 pm

OOPS, that whould be Ag., Cu., not Au. although stories abound that many "were" with Au in the alloy.

bill711 · Post by **bill711** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:26 am

R. toyopa I thought the early bells were cast in spain? Why can,t you make a buck off the mines? Bill

Bushrat · Post by **Bushrat** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:24 pm

Best of luck to those hunting Tayopa in the Superstition Mountains! I surely believe Tayopa is located in the North-Central Mexico mountains and guarded by the greatest safekeeper of all....Mother Nature. She is also assisted by the Mexican government which historically has made treasure hunting a miserable experience down there.

I have found the weather down there is either too cold or too hot year 'round....kind of like the Superstitions' summer heat and cold winter combined into one season. And by comparison, it is an easy trek from the Supes to find a cold beer. (I can tell you that finding supplies in Mexico is the no.1 shitz and you always feel alone without your friends Smith & Wesson along.)

As far as Milton Rose is concerned, many believe he was more of a BS artist than anything else. I didn't know him so I will let those of you that knew him provide the facts. ( A good article to read about Rose's Tayopa find is authored by the infamous* Charles W. Polzer, S.J., in which he exposed the Rose/Mitchell silver bars as counterfit. Photos of the silver bars are included with his article in the Fall 1968 magazine "The Smoke Signal".

Hope no one is offended by this pontification; but there already is enough treasure to go around in the Superstitions......

* infamous among treasure hunters!

bill711 · Post by **bill711** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:35 pm

Bushrat; Thank you for your pontification. If you don,t mind could you tell us of some of your experiences while you were down there and hunted for it. It sounds interesting and we need a break from our humdrum days. YOU sound interesting and we would like to have your experiences on paper so we could read about someone on the scene. Bill

Lost Dutchman Goldmine

The Lost Tayopa Mine

The Lost Tayopa Mine

Tayopa

Apache

From the Tayopa to the Dutchman.

Source

mission

No Mission.

Missions

Lost Mission

Hosstail

Tayopa

Tayopa/Lost dutchman

Tyaopa/Lst /dutchman

toyopa

toyoper mine