Tordis Mountain

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Aurum
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Tordis Mountain

Post by Aurum »

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Peter
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Post by Peter »

Aurum,

Isnt this "Wm. Edwards" fella the same Edwards associated with a mine in the Superstitions and the finding of bones near the Massacre Grounds?

P
Aurum
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Tordis Mountain

Post by Aurum »

xx
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Peter
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Post by Peter »

Aurum,

Thanks for the info. I have run into this Oscar Hutton fellow before. Seems that Oscar was a ferocious Indian fighter. One story I came across had him and a fellow "citizen" chase a group of Chokonnen purported to be lead by Cochise himself, down in the San Pedro Valley. Course it helped some having a troop of cavalry along to help out....

Anyway, Hutton was a civilian at the time (July "65) and went along on a "reconassaince" for the fun of it.

In February "67 Oscar was involved once again with Cochise. This time a war party attacked a few buildings at the Mowry Mines. Coming on the fight late, Oscar rode for help, chased much of the way by Apache. Cochise broke off the enagement once Hutton made his escape, knowing that the soldiers were on their way......

Now, If we have our dates right , there seems to be more than enough time for Hutton to have been up north chasing Nanni-Chaddi's Yavapais in the 65-66 time frame.

P
Knun
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Hutton

Post by Knun »

The 1864 Territorial Census lists Oscar Hutton as Superintendant for the Mowry Mine.

In 1870 he was a scout at Camp Grant.

A true unsung hero of Arizona who's exploits could make a great book.
Joe Ribaudo
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Arizona History

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Aurum,

You guys are giving a nice lesson in Arizona history. It is interesting reading.

Are you quite sure that Oscar Hutton was an Army Lt.? The information that I have shows him as a scout, but never an officer.

If you can quote your source, I would love to read it.

Respectfully,

Joe
Aurum
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Oscar Hutton

Post by Aurum »

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Roger
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Tordis Mountain

Post by Roger »

On page 194 of Helen Corbin's book, The Bible, is the map known as the Ortiz Map and page 194 is the Ortiz Letter which reads in part starting roughly at the middle of the letter:

"First go to tordis mountain then south side. go eastward untill you find the first gorge on the south side from the west end....."

"Tordis" in Spanish roughly means a double peaked rough/craggy mountain. From the description of the letter, Tordis Mountain would most likely be the main Superstition Mountain which meets that description and fits with the trail description.

Roger
Joe Ribaudo
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Songbird (thrush) Mountain?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

I don't speak Spanish, but just how "rough" would that translation of "tordis" be?

Aurum,

Thank you for your source. I think the problem may be that Hutton was never in the "regular" army. Finding records for the Arizona Volunteers is
very difficult and often not possible at all.

My source for this topic is: "Calvalry Yellow & Infantry Blue: Army Officers in Arizona Between 1851 and 1886" by, Constance Wynn Altshuler. She lists all of the officers who served during that period of time, and gives concise biographies on each one. A great reference book.

Respectfully,

Joe
Aurum
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Tordis Mountain ?

Post by Aurum »

xx
Last edited by Aurum on Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Peter
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Post by Peter »

Aurum & co,

For those of you folks interested, some of the works by Lonnie Underhill include:

DR. PALMER'S EXPERIENCES WITH THE ARIZONA VOLUNTEERS, 1865-1866 (Arizona and the West...Spring 1984) pp 43-68

GENEALOGY RECORDS OF THE 1ST AZ VOLUNTEER INF REGIMENT
(Roan Horse Press, 1980)

A HISTORY OF THE 1ST AZ VOLUNTEER INF, 1865-1866
(This was his Masters Thesis at U of Az)



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Gregory E. Davis
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Post by Gregory E. Davis »

Just for fun; Next time any of your are driving East bound on the Superstition Freeway toward Apache Junction, look out on the horizon between Silly Mountain and toward the South East end of Superstition Mountain (The main mountain), about where Gold Canyon is located. If you use your imagination you can see what appears to be a tortoise. The head I believe is what they call Turks Cap but not sure. The shell behind the neck is the lower part of the eastern ridge line and the curve of the tortoise shell is the Eastern part of the mountain as it curves back westerly toward Hieroglyphic Canyon. Understand, I am not implying that this is Tortoise Mountain by any means, but that there is an area at the base of the main mountain that appears to look like a tortoise. Enjoy. Greg Davis
bill711
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dr. Greg.

Post by bill711 »

YES; They used to name things after WHAT they looked like... tordis in spanish means turtle... Bill
Wiz
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Re: dr. Greg.

Post by Wiz »

bill711 wrote:YES; They used to name things after WHAT they looked like... tordis in spanish means turtle... Bill
Spanish for turtle is "tortuga".
Joe Ribaudo
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The Bird

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill and Wiz,

While "tordis" is not a Spanish word, it could be the Spanish word tordos, misspelled. Tordo is, of course, a thrush or songbird. It would include a blackbird. It could also be "tortus" which means, twisted in latin. That would be an interesting twist, for sure. Jesuit influence? :lol: Any help?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
bill711
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the Tortis

Post by bill711 »

Joe, Joe, Joe, We are talking bastard spanish here, We are talking mexican... Bill
Joe Ribaudo
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Time Travel

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

At what point in time did "bastrard spanish" become the (normal) speach used by the "mexican" population at large? Anyone know what year "Tordis Mountain" started to be called by that name? I suppose it would help if we knew what mountain it actually was. :)

Makes you wonder if the map was created by someone who knew little Spanish, but wanted to make the map appear "Mexican", or a Mexican or uneducated American, who knew the English word but had no idea how to spell it?

Lots of possibilities, only one answer.

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
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turtle mountain

Post by bill711 »

JOE; I can answer the question on the spanish change to bastard spanish. This happens over many years as it is used in conjunction with the many indian languages also the american and german influence. NO set of day or date just over a long period of time. Joe I had a knife that was made in mexi. It has mexi writing on it. I asked a spanish girl from El Salvador to read it to me, she knew spanish" The only word she knew was MALO, HELL I even what that word meant. That,s all she knew. YET she reads and writes spanish. See how things change! Just like our language and the english language. We speak AMERICAN. Now while the mountains do look the same I would bet that Dr. Greg is right on it with his view. Joe did that rattler say it,s me again. NOW on the Education of the map makers, I would Bet that the first maker was pretty well educated and the 2nd was not so well educated. YOU have to remember Joe that not even many of your WEALTHY mexicans had much education 4or 5 years at the most. They did not have schools in mexico. The only ones who got any at all was the ones sent out of the country for schooling. ALSO english was a NEW language that was TOTALLY foreign to them. They had to rassel with it. They had to import the GERMANS to engineer the mines for them. AT the time of 1848 then many mexicans did not like americans. In cal. they were not allowed to even own a mine it was taken away from them. This why so many mines were covered up. The indians would never bother with covering up a mine. They may throw alittle dirt over it but not tons. They were not set up to move tons of dirt. all for now. Bill
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