Spamish Treasure Symbols

[Thomas Glover]

I have a friend who wants to know a good reference for "Spanish Treasure Symbols".

While I know of several publications on the subject, I personally do not know of any that I can recommend. The ones I know of lack is a solid source for their info. Kenworthy (as I understand it) says he went to Spain and found references to such symbols. But, as I understand it never actually provided the evidence for his claims. So, if anyone knows of an actual reference in this area it would be appreciated.

[S.C.]

I always questioned Kenworthy's statements about signs and markers. I do not think such are as definitive as claimed. Each maker of a map probably had their own keys and legends. More family related than anything. I seriously doubt there was a text book of treasure symbols Spanish miners were to have used in the name of the King. Thus, I doubt anyone could ever compile a list as such.

But... who knows... I may be wrong.

[Wiz]

I think Azmula would be the one to give some definitive information on this matter, if he could be persuaded to come back.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Dr. Glover,

I have purchased a few of these "guides" in the past, and have always wondered if anyone has ever found a mine using the symbols found in the books. I have never seen any verifiable documentation showing the existence of a "Royal treasure symbols manual". As Wiz states, it is possible Azmula has seen something in the archives of Mexico.

Having seen a large number of "Spanish" maps of the New World, I have yet to see treasure symbols, as depicted in the books, on any of them. The question here is, has anyone seen such symbols on any "authenticated" Spanish map? I assume such maps with these markings must exist or someone would surely have called "bullshit" long before this.

Who would have used these "manuals" and what would be their real purpose? The Spanish explorers and cosmographers, starting with a 1524 map of the Gulf of Mexico, sent by Hernan Cortes in a letter to the King of Spain have no such "symbols". That map was probably created in Spain using information from the Alvarez de Pineda voyage. While there were earlier maps of the New World, this was the first "published" map of the Gulf. The Spanish were prolific map makers and there should be ample evidence of any secret symbols required by the King(s). They were all obsessed with keeping their maps secret.

The Spanish were not prone to leave a rich mining area unworked. They flooded any such district with miners and Indian workers or slaves and removed as much ore as they could. Few Spanish workings were any kind of secret in those days.

I hope someone comes forward with some verifiable documentation concerning this topic. None of the writings I have seen mention any such secret symbols for map making. Kino's writings would be the perfect place to find such information. It is not there.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Scott]

Mel Fisher has studied and documented several Spanish and Portuguies shipwrecks that were considered treasure ships.The survivors of these sinkings were required to disclose all the information to the crown and have it authenicated before wages were paid.The information was documented,correlated and used to provide "treasure maps" for salvage teams.I would contact Fisher,or his foundation and ask for any symbolic or map markings that were used.
Many of the "markers " I have been shown or found,were later destroyed or altered in the last 20yrs.
There are no unblemished "Spanish " markers I know of.
All have been blown apart or shot apart.If I only knew then what I know now.
I have been shown a filled mine .The natural trail to the area passes under a large cliff face.The cliff face is scared with a cross shape.Handholds cut into the face are visible.The scar on the cliff face seems to be Man made.I have not searched the debris at the cliff face.
Kind of looks like a cross was made then defaced from the cliff.The Indians filled at least 39 ft shaft and carried tons of tailings away from the opening of this mine.I am surprised any monument markers from that time still exist.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Scott,

I somehow knew this would end up with stories of shipwrecks. There are so many Spanish maps of land areas it's not funny, and yet no one is coming forth with any evidence of secret symbols.

As for monuments, I don't know if they were Spanish, but my brother and I did find two man size monuments right where the Stone Maps showed them. I looked for them again two years ago by heilcopter without success. I will eventually go back on foot and hope they are still there. They are in such an out of the way and hard to reach place that it seems unlikely they have been destroyed. If they are still there, I will take pictures and let anyone who is interested see them. No background, of course.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[bill711]

S.C; I have looked at and read Kenworthys book Treasure Signs, and Symbols, While I cannot comment on all the signs depicted, He did have an old woodcut of things used in mining. Among those listed was a Priest using a willow or peach stick showing some of the ways they used to find gold or ores. Also there was a woodcut of a pen with an inclined convayer inside it, that a pony or burro would walk on the convayer causing it to turn or rotate. It said it was used to pump air down to the miners. Here at a museum at the lake of the cherokee,s at Miami Okla. There is a machine just like it. Foot prints and all. It was used to grind corn if I remember right. Here in Ok. Alot of people have came across old time carving of turkey tracks, arrows, snakes and such. Here in Ok. some people still use the peach or willow stick method to find water, sewage lines,gas lines, telephone lines. They swear it works when sonar,,radar doesn,t. Monumented trails? There is an old indian&mexican habit of piling rocks at the heads of trails and at the end of trails. Also at the foot and at the top of end of the mountains. Something to do with the Gods. NOW; The land maps were made by the priest,s & The sea or ocean maps were made by the captain of the ship. Who went by the stars or lat. and long. bill

[TC ASKEY]

This is a website that contains various Treasure Symbols. Certainly a different slant on the Heart Symbol we are custom too.(Death Traps) This site contains other Topics, Links, and other information that some of you may find interesting.


www.treasurehuntersuniversity.com

[Aurum]

xx

[Joe Ribaudo]

A site I visit on occasion has a number of topics dealing with "treasure signs".

http://pub69.ezboard.com/bancientlosttreasures

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[dutch elm disease]

tc askey
just like to say thanks for that link (although it wasnt addressed to me i know) theres some terriffic sites that link from that site. great

[charlie]

I have read Kenworthy and noted his reporting a 1584 Ordinance from the King of Spain on how mines in the Americas were to be marked to be recognized.

As in all government organizations, the King of Spain probably did not write the ordinance. Some regulatory official "ghost wrote" the ordinance for the King and had the King authorize the document by signing it.

The King was reported to have confiscated mines (100% return on mined ores) from disloyal or illegal mines. Mines which met the standard paid the "Royal Fifth".

I came across a web site at "boliviabolivia" where a second reference to the 1584 ordinance from Spain was made by someone other then Kenworthy who were mining in the southwest.

I contacted Mrs. Kenworthy recently and she has not retained any of Charles' papers. I would like a copy of the ordanance, but it is expected to be protected in the old archives.

From my limited aerial views of probable sites of lost Spanish Mines, I believe I do see skulls and faces on rocks and the "A"s and "V"s and other markers referenced by Kenworthy. Next time I am in the Coronado National Forest I will photograph what I find.

I am a believer in trail markers. Unfortunately, some other believers may have damaged the easily accessible markers to minimize competition. Unfortunately, these predecessors may have died and left no alternate information. Thereby, removing trail starts and making it harder to reach the trail end.

If anyone finds the 1584 ordinance and spirits a copy from the archives, I would be interested in a copy.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Charlie,

I seriously doubt that many have seen the English translation of Francisco Gamboa's "Commentarios a las Ordenanzas de Minas" let alone the Spanish version or the actual ordinances from Spain. The English translation was done by Richard Heathfield. Copies are available from around $600. to $8000.

I have seen the descriptions of the "new ordinances" which were dated August 22, 1584. The 1584 date is the only thing which bears any resemblance to the claims of Kenworthy and a few others.

Philip II's rules remained in effect until 1783 when Charles II replaced them with "Ordenanzas de Minera". There was little change in the rules.

If someone has seen anything with a little authenticity, we would all appreciate the information. I don't expect to see anyone come forward with any reliable evidence that would affirm the claims that have been made for the contents of the ordinance. I have not seen the entire thing, so anything is possible here.

If anyone is interested in purchasing one of the copies, I will be happy to E-mail you the information.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]

[Roger]

Here is a web site that has what appears to be a pdf version of the 1783 Spanish mining ordinances regarding mining in New Spain. I don't know Spanish so will have to have a friend check if this is what is on the site.

Can someone on the Forum verify if this is the 1783 rules that Joe referenced? If so, the price is a lot better that $600 to $8000!!!

http://www.bibliojuridica.org/libros/libro.htm?l=184

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,

That's a mighty fine job of "looking for the needle in the haystack".

You have uncovered the Ordenanzas de Minera which was established in 1783. Since it did not significantly change what was created in 1584, it might have the information we are seeking.

Thanks for taking the time to dig it up.

I will let you all know what I can find in the document.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,

I have not looked at the entire scope of the ordinances, but a quick search for three key words showed no occurence of their use in the documents. Those words are:

Mapa(s) - Map or maps.

Direccion(s) - Direction or directions.

Symbolo(s) - Symbol or symbols.

So far I have seen no drawings, which would seem to be a given in this case.

If anyone else has found something of importance in this document, don't be shy.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Roger]

I found one reference to an english version of the 1783 Spanish mining ordinances written by Hyde Clarke in 1880. He wrote a three volume work that had the first two volumes on Mexican mining and the third was a translation of Gamboa's "Commentarios a las Ordenanzas de Minas". The University of London has a copy if their library for on site reading only. Will do some more checking to see if there are copies available in the U.S. Here is the reference to the U. of London copy:

http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/search2? ... inst_id=14

Roger

[Roger]

Several postings on the Forum have questioned the veracity of Charles (aka Chuck) Kenworthy's book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs" (1991), plus his follow-up book, "Death Traps to Treasures" (1994). In phone calls and one-on-one meeting in Apache Junction, Chuck stated that he had kept a researcher in Spain employed for several years to dig through the Spanish Archives in Seville to try to find old mine maps and their descriptions/value. He did get back a significant number of valuable documents, but one set of documents that proved of exceptional value were the King's instructions on how to make maps to mine locations and how to mark the inbound and outbound trails to those mines in New Spain. The King was not about to lose his 1/5th of this valuable commodity and these map making and trail marking rules were locked in place for an extended period of time. In New Spain, each mining venture had to have a trained map maker and trail marker with the team. Maps were made of the significant finds and copies sent to Sante Fe and/or Mexico City and to Spain for safekeeping, least the King's property be lost if something happened to the miners.

Chuck stated that the individual that he hired to work the Seville archives was Eugene Lyon. If that name rings a bell with anyone - it should. Mel Fisher had also retained Eugene earlier to search the Seville archives for information on the 1715 Spanish fleet that was wrecked on the Florida coastline in a hurricane. It was Eugene that found the key clues on the Senora de Atocha that led Mel to the Dry Tortugas south of Key West and his finding of the Atocha.

Chuck said that there were a large number of pages in the map making and trail marking documents that Eugene sent him. The key ones were used in his books, but there were a number of others - some were variations of the ones in the books and others were entirely different.

One wonders what happened to those files in Chuck's posession. Would be great to see them all published.

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,

Nice post. I for one appreciate your unique information.

I would love to see those documents, and perhaps a few others might also enjoy taking a peek at them. For that reason, it is hard to believe they have disappeared off the face of the earth. How valuable would those documents be to someone who believes in lost Spanish mines and treasures?

As for Chuck's books, how many pictures of those documents did he put in their pages? While we have many people claiming to have seen these documents, no one has supplied any proof that they exist at all. Those who claim they have seen or have personal knowledge of the "Kings" directions for making maps of "his" mines, have all claimed they saw them or that they were in the mining ordenances of 1584. You should know that the 1584 and the 1783 ordenances provided for private ownership of the New World's mines. What I have seen has nothing to do with map making, at all. Those documents are available to be viewed.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Roger]

OK team, here it is. You should be able to afford this!

Sandstone Press sells and English/Spanish soft cover book of the 1584 Spanish Mining Ordinances for $8.95. Here is the web site to order it.

http://www.sunstonepress.com/cgi-bin/bo ... ordnum=248

I am ordering mine today. First one to get a copy, please post what you think of it.

Roger

[Thomas Glover]

I have refrained from telling this story. I have only spoken of it to two, maybe four (?) people. But, given the repeated references that come up to Kenworthy perhaps I should share a little incident from many years ago now. Richard Robinson and I were talking on the phone one day and he told me that he and Kenworthy had been talking. Now I had worked with Rich in helping with his applications to conduct research at Casa Grande, and we knew each other pretty well. (Rich, if you read this let me know as it has been some time since we had a good “session” – miss them.)

Rich told me (as best as I can recall) that Kenworthy wanted to talk to Rich about a book on the Stone Maps as that was Rich’s primary area of research. If I recall correctly Rich said Kenworthy had said something like: Its been a long time since anyone did a book on the Stone Maps. Let’s talk about you doing one. Rich asked me if I would go along with him to Kenworthy’s office in the LA area. I agreed pleased to have the chance to meet Chuck Kenworthy. We entered a door together and found a young, good looking blond secretary who directed us up some stairs to Kenworthy’s office. In the office were two items I recall distinctly. One was a glass case with what I took to be recovered treasure items, mostly gold. Not much in total mass, but impressive enough. There were also some photographs of a boat, John Wayne, and I believe Cocos Island. I was pretty impressed – but then remember it was early days for me and perhaps I was too easily impressed.

The other thing I remember about the office was Kenworthy’s desk. It was cross ways/diagonal to a corner of the room so Kenworthy had a small area to himself. Behind the desk was a waste paper basket, on the desk was sheet of glass. Well, Kenworthy did not want to hear much about Rich’s work, instead he talked about his work. Things like going to Cocos Island and the inside information he had, about the storeroom or was it storage room where his material was kept secure. As Kenworthy would talk he would tear a single piece of paper from a yellow legal pad and place it on the glass. Then he might draw something to show us. After which he would wad it up and put it in his private waste paper basket. Then he would repeat the show.

When it became clear to us (Rich and I) that he had no interest in hearing from Rich – in fact, I have wondered why we were invited? Anyway, I started to ask a question or two. I asked him about the survey done of the mercury testing in the Superstitions. It was big news back then. Kenworthy explained that he not only knew “about it”, but the sensing instrument had been designed by a Canadian company. It was a one of a kind instrument that hung below the plane, and he had secured the right to it and their original data. (As I recall he was going to use it in an upcoming search in the Superstitions.)

Years later found me sitting in Howard McCarthy’s office of the USGS at the Univ. of Nevada (Reno) at the Mackey School of Mines. Howard was the primary researcher on themercury testing I had talked to Kenworthy about those years before. One of the first things I asked Howard was about the “Canadian instrument”. Opps. There was no such thing, it never existed. The mercury vapor survey of the Superstitions was done with a device designed by Howard and his team, and it fit inside the plane. There is a picture of it on page 286 of my book.
So I tend to not put great stock in what Kenworthy may have said he had, or had seen, or who he had hired to do whatever. The man I meant put on a great show. I am not saying the documents don’t exist, but without seeing them or knowing someone I trust telling me they have seen them I remain skeptical

[Wiz]

For me, it only took reading Kenworthy's books to make me think he was more promotion than anything else. I mean, if the Peraltas had carved every peak in the mountains as pointers like he says they did, they would never have had time to dig for gold! I've seen most of the monuments, markers, etc. he wrote about (most are right on the main trails), and they sure don't look carved to me. I mentioned once before, too, that several of the photos in his books were doctored with magic marker to emphasize some point he was making. All in all, not a seemingly reliable documentarian.

Of course, he has lots and lots of company in that respect!

(On rereading that last line, I guess I better add that I'm just referring to the bulk of LDM literature out there. That wasn't a dig at anyone.)

[Peter]

Wiz & Co,

If one reads Kenworthy's TREASURE SECRETS OF THE LOST DUTCHMAN or SPANISH MONUMENTS & TRAIL MARKERS TO TREASURE IN THE UNITED STATES, one comes away with the feeling that Kenworthy did his homework and knows what he is talking about.

Until one digs a little beneath the surface.

As an example, take his analysis of the Walker - Weedin Map (which he calls the Ruth-Gonzalez Map) beginning on page 25 of TS-LDM. He spends
33 pages analyzing every line, marking, letter and angle on the map. Thats all well and good.....but what he thought was "the finest of all known maps" was scribbled by memory by Tom Weedin for Sims Ely.

Wont get into the whole rock carving thing, but Wiz is 100% correct. If the Peraltas or Mexicans carved every monument in the mountains that Kenworthy claims, they would have had little time for anything else.

Logic dictates that because of the timeframe that the Mexican mining parties found the LDM (that is, the last mine of the number of mines they found), any large monument or map made out of stone (hint hint) wont be leading anyone to the LDM anytime soon. Folks should think smaller and simpler when thinking about the LDM...at least as far as monuments and maps go.

P

[Roger]

I will agree with others on the Forum that Kenworthy saw a Spanish clue in ever rock in the Supers including ones that would have taken a crew of 50 miners years to carve by hand. He would also read a memory map and make a federal case out of it.

However, I would caution not to throw everything Kenworthy out with the bath water. He was a successful treasure hunter for 20+ years with Quest Corporation and made his living from it. More than I suspect most of us can say. He was a promoter/hustler to say the least and was probably looking for "investors" just as Mel Fisher did.

I would not throw out his information on Spanish map making and trail marking as to the rules involved. He had original source material for this information and it is of use to the treasure/mine huter.

Will be interesting to see what the 1584 mining ordiances contain and how it could relate to Kenworthy's work.

HH

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

I have said many times that repeating a "fact" for many years does not make it true. It does mean it will be eventually accepted (by most) as a "true fact". I believe this story is one of those "facts" without any truth.

I have seen a lot of the information that is in the 1584 mining laws. Nothing like what has been claimed over the years has shown up. I hope this book will prove me wrong.

Roger,

Because Kenworthy and Fisher made their livings as sucessful treasure hunters does not place them above telling a lie to make some money. Fisher hung that chicken around his own neck and it's more than possible that the books that are in the mail will do the same to Chuck Kenworthy.

As Wiz said: "He has lots and lots of company in that respect." Dr. Glover, who had just preceeded Wiz with a post was rightfully excepted from that "company", I belive. Nice recovery Wiz, but I doubt anyone took it personal.

Peter,

You said:

"Logic dictates that because of the timeframe that the Mexican mining parties found the LDM (that is, the last mine of the number of mines they found), any large monument or map made out of stone (hint hint) wont be leading anyone to the LDM anytime soon. Folks should think smaller and simpler when thinking about the LDM...at least as far as monuments and maps go."

Joe:

Are you saying that "logic dictates" that the Stone Maps could not have been created in the alloted "timeframe"? Wouldn't logic dictate that the Stone Maps are the "best evidence" when compared to the conflicting and questionable stories that are available? The Stone Maps are physical evidence that can be seen and touched. They are not proven to be a hoax yet. There is some evidence that the Stone Maps could be much older than was initially thought.

It's a little scary that most of you seem to be agreeing with me concerning Kenworthy's claims. I may have to reconsider my position here.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo