Jesuit treasure of the Superstitions

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Mark
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Jesuit treasure of the Superstitions

Post by Mark »

I have been folowing the articles by azmula about the jesuit treasure in the superstition mountins and the stone map mentioned in the latest article.

Azmula said a stone maps was in the church at arizspe and moved to another location by a jesuit preist. I had heard about the stone map coming from arizspe but never knew when or where they were made or by who. The jesuit story is true as azmula tells it acording to a history of the order and i have seen the painting of the preist ROjas in the church at arizspe.

Does anyon know, are the stone maps at the mesa museum the stone maps from ariszpe? Are they old enough to have been made in the 1767 time? if the stone maps are the ones made by the jesuit preist it would mean the superstition mountins could be the place where the preist took the churchs treasure. enterpreting the symbols and markings on the maps are anyones guess but some of the symbols are known spanish markings used on other maps.

Has anybody ever found any tresure related to these stone maps? I have read a lot about these maps both in this website and in books and it is all very confusing. these articles are filling in some information i had not read before.
azmula
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The Jesuit Treasure

Post by azmula »

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TC ASKEY
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Stone Maps

Post by TC ASKEY »

Azmula,
If the Stone Maps are authentic, they have certianly been altered. The photo of the 2 part maps in Tom Glovers book clearly shows this. Probably altered after they were acquired by M.O.E.L. Inc. But altered to what extent?
Perhaps Dr. Glover could shed some light on this issue. I would surely think it would have been a question he would have asked Gene and Norm Davis.
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Thomas Glover
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Post by Thomas Glover »

Terry,

First, let me reiterate that my interest in the Stone Maps remains essentially historical. Having said that, first let me note two errors: i) on page 341 it indicates that the maps are on the reverse of the Priest and Horse stones, but it should read the maps are on the reverse of the Cross and Don stones*; ii) the pictures of the Stone Maps in my book are attributed to Richard Robinson – however, it appears that the pictures were originally taken not by Robinson but by Jack San Felise. What happened is that I copied the photographs from Greg Davis’ Collection. I understood that the pictures were from the Richard Robinson Collection, but it appears that they were actually taken by Jack, and he should have the credit.

Re: whether or not the Stone Maps have been changed all I can offer is the following – the earliest photograph of the Stone Maps to my knowledge is the one reportedly taken of the Stone Maps shortly after they were found by Tumlinson**. A copy of this photograph is on page 337 of my book. I did not ask the Davis brothers whether or not they had been changed. After all, the Davis brother’s involvement with the Stone Maps and Tumlinson essentially ended in the late 1950s. Gene Davis did make a direct copy of the Stone Maps circa the mid-1950s and I have photographs of that copy. I have yet to compare closely that copy with recent photographs. One difficulty is that although the copy was made directly from the Stone Maps it was not a rubbing and there has always been the possibility of human error in the making of the copy.

Terry, might I ask what changes you believe were made? If I knew I might be able to check the Davis copy more closely.

Thomas Glover

* based on information from sources more interested in the Stone Maps than I have been.
** this is assuming that Tumlinson was the one who discovered the Stone Maps.
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Stone Maps

Post by TC ASKEY »

Tom,

In the photo on page 337, anyone can clearly see that the knife or dagger is missing on the top part of the maps.
It also appears that the "2" the "18" and the "7" are missing from the bottom part of the maps.
It would be interesting to know how the photos Gene Davis gave you, compare to the photos on page 341.
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Roger
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The Stone Map Pictures circa 1965

Post by Roger »

If you can find the small phamplet that Travis Marlowe published in 1965 titled "Superstition Treasures" you can see photographs of the stones made at that time. The knife is clearly seen on those photos as well as the 2, 18, and 7. If the photo on page 337 was taken just after the stones were dug up, there may have still been soil in the lines and the angle of the photo is not the best to see the lighter lines/figures. From this, I would not believe the stones had been altered.

I spent 3 hrs one afternoon in 1003 in the Mesa SW Museum looking at the original stones in a back room with someone watching me. I made tracings of the stones as well as found a set of letters on the stone that I have never found in any literature on them. The map faced stones all had the same general line texture and depth under a magnifying glass and they appeared to have all been made at one time. Also, Chuck Kenworthy gave me a set of photocopies of pictures he had made of the stones using infrared light and that were also" dogged and bleached" to reveal any faint markings or removed markings. There was no evidence that the stones had been altered.

One can always speculate on this, but I for one think the stones are autheintic and were found in their current state. Reading them is the real tough part as they are heavily encoded and you can't simply follow the map as seen with the heart in place.

Roger
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Stone Maps

Post by TC ASKEY »

Roger,
You may be correct , but only the Davis Brothers and Dr. Glover
Know one way or the other.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Old Trails

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

I pointed out quite some time ago that the Stone Maps have been changed. It makes perfect sense that someone would change them before letting them go.

There is no evidence that they are Jesuit products. That does not mean that they are not, only that there is no proof. I would be very surprised if Azmula has anything other than folklore for evidence that Rojas had anything to do with the maps. If he says he has proof, I will take him at his word. He has done a terrific amount of research.

I have the Marlow phamplet and the knife is clearly different than the rest of the carvings. You don't need to blow them up to see that, it is obvious. Since it is not shown on the original photo, it is not difficult to figure out what has happened.

It would appear that Dr. Glover has the best source to find out if any changes were made. The question here is, would his source tell him the truth? It seems to me that the "best evidence" is the picture.

Having someone who has done the research that Dr. Glover has and is willing to participate in this forum is a great asset to us all. I have been told that he is a man of his word by people that I have a lot of trust in. If he says "it is so" I will take that to the bank.

Joe Ribaudo
azmula
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Post by azmula »

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Joe Ribaudo
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Age

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Azmula,

You said:

"The age of the stone tablets can be determined however, the carvings are a bit more difficult. To date no one has truly determined the age of creation for the Stone Maps falsificacion or verdad."
(Emphasis in bold is Joe's)

What process do you believe can tell us the age of the tablets?

I don't understand this statement:

"To date no one has truly determined the age of creation for the Stone Maps falsificacion or verdad." The falsification or truth of the age of the stone or the maps on them? How could you prove or disprove the age of the carvings short of finding a treasure or mine by using them?

Joe Ribaudo
azmula
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Post by azmula »

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Joe Ribaudo
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Correct

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Azmula,

You are correct. It is "irrelevant". I assume you are also correct when you say "It only matters what they say. And that is the CHALLENGE."
Perhaps knowing the date they were made would make the "deciphering"
a little less challenging.

Joe
charlie
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Tome changes all

Post by charlie »

I tend to believe that when something is said or written (even in stone) the meaning is dated to what it means.

I believe we agree that names have changed in the Superstitions. Therefore without knowing what it was called, we do not know what it means.

Physical structures (mountains, valleys and rivers) change; plant life lives, dies and is burned away;cities are built and abandoned to rot into nothing! Refernce points assumed to be stable in the environment may not be reliable as reference points.

Codes change over time as supported by Axmula with the returning Jesuits not knowing the codes used by the older Jesuits who were explelled. Again, meanings change because of who is interpreting the meanings.

The experiences of the old time prospectors have been translated by several people using spoken words and writing the spoken legends in print. Again, the number of times the story has been told and retold have changed the whispered phrase. The closer to the original source, the higher the probabiloity of full truth.

When and by whom the stones were made is important for someone who is tracking down the validity of what is chiseled in stone.

So many factors need to be considered that the final solution will be someone's guess with backfactoring about why that guess was right.

The best we can hope is that estimating a solution using what information is available could get us near, but not exactly at, the final cache/mine.
Charlie
Roger
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Read The Stones

Post by Roger »

For the visually impaired: The stones, although not signed by the author, are dated in numbers 4 inches high as 1847. This date would conincide with some of Tom Glover's estimates of when the Spanish massacre happened (page 57 of The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz Part 1) of between 1842-1848 based on Pedro Peralta's date of birth.

A little humor here, but it is interesting that the date on the stone seems to be consistent with the available histroical dates of people and events. The Spanish may well have hidden the stones South of the Supers for those who would return much later could find the mine.

Roger
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Close to the Truth

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Charlie and Roger,

I believe you are both close to the truth here. You may want to consider that the dates on the Stone Maps may have been added at a later time, just as the date at Twin Buttes.

If the Stone Maps were not created by the Jesuits, you could not reasonably expect them to be understood by those who followed.

"Cities" do not "rot into nothing". (bold by Joe) Although the land does change, without tremendous events from mother nature it normally takes a little longer than we are talking about here. Please don't recite the "eartquake" theory, as there is too much evidence in the Superstitions that refutes that story.

The Jesuit creation of the Stone Maps is as good as any other source for trying to figure out the "code".

Joe
Mark
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Jesuit treasure part 5

Post by Mark »

the latest article by azmula on the Jesuit treasure part5 is the most interesting so far on the subject. azmula has done some indepth research into the subject. The intrepretation of the signs and symbols will surely be an interesting subject.

In a earlier post Roger mentioned the date 1847 on one of the stone maps. I may be wrong but the 1847 wasnt meant as a date but as a code. the number should be read as either 1 - 8 - 4 - 7 or 18 - 4 - 7.
the first two numbers being a sum and the last two numbers being symbolic of what the sum represents.

would azmula comment on the number or will that be in a future article?
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Jesuit treasure part 5

Post by azmula »

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Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

Azmula,

No one seems to be responding, but I know there are people paying very close attention to everything you say in your articles, waiting for you to give away the vital bit of info (like, where the gold is).

Great job, I'm finding your articles fascinating!
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The Jesuit Treasure of the Superstition Mountains

Post by azmula »

Wiz,
Thank you for the kind words. However, I have come to a point that I doubt the interest to the majority of readers (too much conflict with the status quo) and I feel that it is a waste of space to continue just sticking my photo up in front of the readers here on this forum. I will not cease my own search nor writing but I will do it in a different time and place with a different audience. Articles that do not generate interest do not justify their existence. Thanks again!

azmula
walker12
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Post by walker12 »

I for one have found your posts to be very interesting. I especially enjoyed the history. I cannot say that I have ever read a better organized, logical history of why there could be buried treasure out there somewhere.

I guess the realtive silence to date can be attributed to a bunch of factors.

First and foremost, if you have truly solved the puzzle then you would have likely done one of two things - either kept it to yourself or showed the world the treasure. You have done neither. Thus, I think the Board have been reading them with lowered expectations as we know they will be anti-climatic. For example, if you had prefaced them with a "I found something" and here are the (or at least some) details the Board would be all ears. Similarly, if you said I have decided to share all my SECRETS with the world, then again the Board (at least the non-skeptical members) would hang on your every word.

Also, while the history you recite sounds good, that was a lot to accept on faith. I don't remember much in the way of verifiable references that could be doubled check. Granted you only have so much room and like you noted they tended to not write it down. However, this does tend to make it easy for the skeptics to dismiss your claims/stick with their own theories.

Another reason for not getting feedback is that you may be directing traffic into the areas being searched by others. What do you expect them to do yell and say "he's right, come on down"? Or, if they think you are wrong are they really going to point out what they consider to be your errors and in the process give away their secrets"? I doubt it.

I think your good reputation also hurts your quest for feedback. We know you as a smart, solid poster who deals in facts and isn't trying to stir up something. Thus, unless we have spent years looking into the history, and with the latest post studying the maps, who are we to question your research/conclusions?

Lastly, I think the nature of the maps also makes it inherently difficult to make a convincing case. Many people cannot understand a non-coded map let alone one designed to deceive. To me it is a lot like looking at clouds or inkblots. You can sometimes see what you want to see. For example, is the mane concealing MIII like you noted? Or, is that seeing something that you want to see? [Like I noted, it is hard for me to effectively criticize what I don't understand.]

Bottom line - keep up the good work and sometimes a quiet audience isn't bored but in awe.
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No Response?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Walker,

You have put together the only answer to Azmulas complaint. We have all told him how much we enjoy his articles, but there is not much to comment on after that. What should we discuss? We don't know what his conclusions are so no disagreement there. What facts there are, do not promote debate. I have considered calling Peter a SOB just to have something to talk about. If it were not for the fact that I cconsider him my brother I would have done it. :lol: No offense brother.
Is there another topic that has been started in the last few months that has generated more interest than this one? I will make the only comment I can on the recent assertions. I believe the MIII you speak of is really MILL.

Azmula,

This is the most active topic on the forum. I have made a few comments that could have been debated, but you said very little in response. I know you don't really want to talk to me, but your topic is the only show in town. Try quoting some sources as Walker suggests. If you do that we can at least beat-up on your sources.

Respectfully,

Joe
Scott
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Post by Scott »

Azmula.
I respect your continued insights into the Dutchman mystery.
We all have ideas and solutions that were fueled by others reckelections and second hand stories over 100 yrs old.During the summer time no one I know searches to hard.Several groups including myself claim "next season".I have seen dozens of season go by.I realize that negative replies /no replies are like a slap in the theory.
I am a sub-genius,but experienced in fading social skills.I have stayed this long to gather insights from others.
I do not reply or add to most post, I dont take critics advice at face value.
There are several posters here that may help you refine your presentations.
Reconsider ditching this fourm
Regards ,Scott
Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

There! See? Your articles and postings are appreciated. It's just that you are so far ahead of any of the rest of us that none of us has anything intelligent to say in response.

This, of course, presupposes that any of us ever says anything intelligent anyway, which is debatable.
walker12
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Post by walker12 »

ESTA BEREDA ES PELIGROZA
This trail is dangerous
YO BOY 18 LUGARES
I go 18 places
BUSCA EL MAPA
Search the map
BUSCA EL COAZON
Search the heart

In the prior map the misspelling of caballo was significant. What about the misspellings in the above? Namely, an online Spanish to English translator doesn't recognize coazon, boy, peligroza or bereda.
azmula
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The Priest Map

Post by azmula »

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