Map

[Ron]

I have a little project for those that would like to partake. Get yourself the latest Tonto National Forest map 2001, and search the wilderness for what they have deleted . It will be obvious. I knew that they were on a campaign to erase history from the Mountain, one of such ways was to delete places on their maps, but this is unbelievable.

[TC ASKEY]

Ron, It is quite obvious. I find it hard to believe that was just an oversight. Evidentally the Forest Service is more concerned in erasing history than doing thier job. Like solving the Bark Beetle problem we have. Take a good look around when you get to Pine. You'll see what I mean.

[Scott]

I first noted ommisions on topos in the 70's.I would search out mines in the Bradshaws to research and prospect.Some old topos would show all kinds of diggings ,millworks ,dumps,shafts and trailsthat were deleted on later maps.I always tried to get the old ones.I had many great times visiting these areas. I asked the question to some Rangers and was told that there are many reasons these "landmarks" are deleted.
The land may have been bought,ancient dewellings being disturbed,burial
area dug up,access may be denied. The letter mentioned historic preservation . Lots of Ghost Towns are now only memories.Not mentioned on present maps.One road we built now no longer exist.
This will continue as it appears to be an ongoing policy to preserve by amnesia.It is amazing to find huge tailing piles not included on topos.
I feel this is a detrimential to anyone who may want to live below these mines.Many mines used chemicals during processes and were spilled or dumped.These will find the aquafier.Erasing past uses from maps does not make it go away.People useage and history should not be forgotten.
I went to every "landmark" that was erased from one topo map series that was updated.I likely would not of ,except for the fact it was deleted.And I was not going to let them erase that knowledge from Me.

[Joe Ribaudo]

TC,

I just spent some time up in Prescott, and the beetle problem was spreading fast. My brother in law has some land up there, and just cut down most of his pine trees. It's amazing how often the bureaucracy "can't see the forest for the trees."

Joe Ribaudo

[Ron]

I guess now that Weavers Needle doesn't exist anymore, it is going to get even tougher to find the Lost Dutchman Mine. In my experience hunting for the mine , I think what we've all discussed before, that the addition of so much information that is tainted or bogus etc. is no less or more a problem than the deletion of information from all of us. One can at least try to verify many of the stories we've discussed here and other places on the mine or anything else one hunts for, but one can't verify something that no longer exists; so maybe I should go out and see if the Needle is still there. (chuckle). If it is not, I guess I will have to give up on that shadow business at 4:00.

[charlie]

If Weaver's Needle does not exist on the map (by title), but does exist physically, what will it be called. This may be a step prior to renaming the needle.

Remeber how many names have changed when indians were replaced by the Spanish and then by the Anglos. How many places were named in the early frontier names that were lost and renamed?

Just like the aroma of Shaakespeare's rose, the needle will be as impressive with or without a name. History is lost If you need to document something, write a book.

[Ron]

Who remembers what the Cavalry Trail used to be called , what Black Mountain at one time incorperated, where Squaw Tit was , where in fact First Water Trail was? All these and more have been changed , and with every change we lose history. It is one thing to change names that have existed for a long time, but it is clearly wrong to take things off entirely , like they never were there. The Needle is only one thing , there are many , many more.

TCAskey,

I have seen the pine beetle damage. If they ignore that problem , maybe it wouldn't exist either.