This topic deserves its own place in the forum. The Apache are such an important part of the LDM lore and Superstition Mountain history that they can't be left out of any disscussion of importance.
Wiz,
I appreciate your comments concerning my "insensitive, oafish" posting on the habits of the Apache. It is also possible I did not think before writing. That, however, is not the case here. You need only read the history of the Apache to understand that long before they saw the first white man, or Spaniard/Mexican, they survived by killing and robbing those around them. It was a way of life for them and they believed it was the natural order of things for them to murder and rob those who were weaker then themselves. I do not have a romantic vision of Apache history. My conclusions are based on the historical writings of the time.
The reactions of the whites and mexicans were the result of generations of conflict with the Apache. I do not condone the way they fought these battles, but I was not there. Even a casual inspection of the literature available should open your eyes to the nature of this race. I will not join the rush to bash the history of early Americans who were dealing with life in the southwest or any other American history others may wish to drag out.
Peter,
There are more than a few sources for my comments. I will not list them all. Father Santa Maria wrote, "Liking red meat, they first scourge their prisoners with thistles and drub their skin with rough bark, so as to stimulate the circulation of the blood. Then they kill one of them, put him to roast on the fire, and begin to dance around it, uttering cries of delight. In turn, the dancers, men and women, step out of the circle to go take a bite at the victim and tear off a bit of the fleshy parts, always avoiding cutting into the large veins, for fear of draining out his blood. When the bones appear on one side, he is turned over on the other; when he is entirely stripped of flesh, he is replaced by a second vicitm, until the day's menu is wholly consumed. The liver, spleen, lungs, and other tender parts are kept for the toothless old people who would not be able to bite into anything else." My source for the preceding passage is The Last of the Conquistadors, by Omer Englebert.
Without subjugation by the white race, the Apache would probably still be robbing and killing. They continued that practice well into the 1900s in Mexico.
Joe
Apache Presence
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Apache Presence
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Wed May 28, 2003 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe
I still dont see anything that points to Apache. Could the good Father been talking about Tarahumara? Hualapais? Yavapais? Mojave? The Black and Grey Robes of that time were notorious for de-humanizing those they considered barbaric savages.
At the same time, I agree 100% with you as to the war-like nature of your average Apache male. An Apache warrior did 5 things in his life:
hunted, made medicine, made little Apaches, made weapons and made war. They were not farmers nor did they have an agrarian society. They lived to fight. The only reason that large tracts of northern Mexico were not wiped out by the Apache was to keep a core of towns and haciendas producing goods and livestock that the Apache could then capture in raids...leaving the victims enough subsistence to keep producing goods which would in turn be taken by Apache in the future.
I still dont see anything that points to Apache. Could the good Father been talking about Tarahumara? Hualapais? Yavapais? Mojave? The Black and Grey Robes of that time were notorious for de-humanizing those they considered barbaric savages.
At the same time, I agree 100% with you as to the war-like nature of your average Apache male. An Apache warrior did 5 things in his life:
hunted, made medicine, made little Apaches, made weapons and made war. They were not farmers nor did they have an agrarian society. They lived to fight. The only reason that large tracts of northern Mexico were not wiped out by the Apache was to keep a core of towns and haciendas producing goods and livestock that the Apache could then capture in raids...leaving the victims enough subsistence to keep producing goods which would in turn be taken by Apache in the future.
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Apache habits
Peter,
A fine assessment of Apache life, except for the making war part. Making war implies that two sides are sending their armies against each other. The Apache sent their warriors against anyone that walked, crawled or was confined to to a bed. Their method of warfare would be considered terrorism by any civilized people. I have nothing but praise for the distance the Apache of today have traveled from their roots. They would not have moved one inch without complete defeat by American forces.
This is what precedes my previous quote: "After an absence of eight years and several months, I have just returend to the College," Junipero wrote on September 29, 1758, to his nephew Miguel, who had become a Capuchin friar, "but I am on the point of setting out again, for the Apache country, four hundred leagues from here."
The maps of the period show the "Apache country" as a region of about eighty thousand square miles, to the east of the Colorado River. But this territory contained far from all the Apache Indians. Whole tribes of them were to be found in the northern part of Sonora and in Texas. Like the Comanches, their allies of the moment, the Apaches of Texas had a taste for human flesh, but they did not eat it with garlic and tomatoes like the Aztecs.........
It is also true that some Spanish Conquistadors wrote that the Apaches they encountered were not eaters of human flesh. I assume, from the disparity, it depended on the location and customs of specific Apache tribes.
There is some modern-day research that (not unchallanged) seems to bolster the evidence of this practice among some Apache.
For us to understand the treatment of the Apache by Americans and Spanish/Mexicans from the time of the Conquistadors to the mid-nineteen hundreds is difficult at best. Reading the history of our pioneers and the Mexican viewpoint from the same era is the closest we can come to why they were treated as they were. Both countries lowered themselves to the level of the Apache, and in so doing, became better savages then the Indians they were fighting. The results are all the proof needed of their success. There is, of course, no written record of this time by the Apache.
Having said all that, Junipero may have been a pathological lier. Your call.
Joe
A fine assessment of Apache life, except for the making war part. Making war implies that two sides are sending their armies against each other. The Apache sent their warriors against anyone that walked, crawled or was confined to to a bed. Their method of warfare would be considered terrorism by any civilized people. I have nothing but praise for the distance the Apache of today have traveled from their roots. They would not have moved one inch without complete defeat by American forces.
This is what precedes my previous quote: "After an absence of eight years and several months, I have just returend to the College," Junipero wrote on September 29, 1758, to his nephew Miguel, who had become a Capuchin friar, "but I am on the point of setting out again, for the Apache country, four hundred leagues from here."
The maps of the period show the "Apache country" as a region of about eighty thousand square miles, to the east of the Colorado River. But this territory contained far from all the Apache Indians. Whole tribes of them were to be found in the northern part of Sonora and in Texas. Like the Comanches, their allies of the moment, the Apaches of Texas had a taste for human flesh, but they did not eat it with garlic and tomatoes like the Aztecs.........
It is also true that some Spanish Conquistadors wrote that the Apaches they encountered were not eaters of human flesh. I assume, from the disparity, it depended on the location and customs of specific Apache tribes.
There is some modern-day research that (not unchallanged) seems to bolster the evidence of this practice among some Apache.
For us to understand the treatment of the Apache by Americans and Spanish/Mexicans from the time of the Conquistadors to the mid-nineteen hundreds is difficult at best. Reading the history of our pioneers and the Mexican viewpoint from the same era is the closest we can come to why they were treated as they were. Both countries lowered themselves to the level of the Apache, and in so doing, became better savages then the Indians they were fighting. The results are all the proof needed of their success. There is, of course, no written record of this time by the Apache.
Having said all that, Junipero may have been a pathological lier. Your call.
Joe
Wiz
Nahhhhh. Joey is bright enough to stay in the dayhikers paradise that he enjoys. This way he has tales to tell and yarns to spin without too much bother to himself....or others. Hell I cant blame him. Getting into some of the more interesting areas takes a fair amount of effort and committment..as I am sure you are aware of. The fact that Joe was scared off by a little rain for a day or so speaks volumes about both....
Nahhhhh. Joey is bright enough to stay in the dayhikers paradise that he enjoys. This way he has tales to tell and yarns to spin without too much bother to himself....or others. Hell I cant blame him. Getting into some of the more interesting areas takes a fair amount of effort and committment..as I am sure you are aware of. The fact that Joe was scared off by a little rain for a day or so speaks volumes about both....
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Easy Street
Peter and Wiz,
I can admire early Apache life without trying to turn them into heros. I have stated that the Apache have come a long way from their roots and that says a lot for them as a people. We treated the Apache exactly as they treated everyone they ever came into contact with. If left alone they led an idealistic lifestyle, until they needed supplies they would not create on their own. They would then raid and kill Mexicans or whites to get those items. Although I understand their lifestyle, I find nothing in this conduct to admire. If the truth about their past bothers you or any Apache who may be keeping tabs on this forum or those who may report what is said to them, you may all put your rose colored glasses back on. My opinion on the Apaches of the past has nothing to do with the Apache of today. It is based on my own reading of history. I also have a low opinion of the Germans of Hitlers time and the Japanese of the same period. You can find things to admire in their accomplishments, but not their actions.
As for what may or may not happen to me in the mountains, I have no fear as I am seldom alone and never unprepared. Those who take offense to the truth seldom confront others who are well armed or in the company of others. As a rule, the Apache of the past held to that rule of battle. Seldom is the KEY word back there, so don't recite the exceptions of that rule to me, I am already aware of them.
I do understand the Apache of the period we are discussing. Understanding and accepting their behavior are two seperate things. If you read the history of the tribes and their first contact with others, you will both have a better, less emotional grasp on this subject. You both seem to have no understanding of what brought the Americans and Mexicans to the deploreable actions that they took. It is popular in this day to place all the blame on one side. Their are people who place all of the blame on America for the problems of today.
Perhaps you should both read your history from the Pima viewpoint, or any of the other tribes who were terrorized by the Apache of the past. The end of the Apache threat in this country was justifiable in the eyes of most who had come into contact with them. Since we did not experience those Apache, our perspective may be skewed. That goes double if we are in the habit of wearing rose colored glasses and only take them off when viewing our own ancestors.
Since none of us lived in that time period, like the parrot, we can only repeat what we hear, or read in my case. Peter, you are the one who is repeating what you are being told by your friends. What they say may be the truth. As a non-Indian, I will accept our side as my truth. We were the only ones writing that history and that includes both sides of the story.
It is not my intent to damage the sensitivities of you boys, but truth is always the best medicine for the uninformed masses.
Peter,
You are incorrect in your statement that "they were not farmers nor did they have an agrarian society." Once they were on the run from the Army, it is a true statement. Prior to that time, it is an incorrect statement.
I have never encountered another person (even once) in my area of interest and that includes Peter's Papago. Can you make the same statement? My family has been all over your area for years and it is rough. I would love to transfer that terrain into my own area.
Only a few people know that I put off packing into the mountains because of the rain. My concern was warranted. Only one person would have given that information to you. Your skirts are showing. It is best not to expose them unless you would like to make your sources public to the forum. I will not.
Take Care,
Joe
I can admire early Apache life without trying to turn them into heros. I have stated that the Apache have come a long way from their roots and that says a lot for them as a people. We treated the Apache exactly as they treated everyone they ever came into contact with. If left alone they led an idealistic lifestyle, until they needed supplies they would not create on their own. They would then raid and kill Mexicans or whites to get those items. Although I understand their lifestyle, I find nothing in this conduct to admire. If the truth about their past bothers you or any Apache who may be keeping tabs on this forum or those who may report what is said to them, you may all put your rose colored glasses back on. My opinion on the Apaches of the past has nothing to do with the Apache of today. It is based on my own reading of history. I also have a low opinion of the Germans of Hitlers time and the Japanese of the same period. You can find things to admire in their accomplishments, but not their actions.
As for what may or may not happen to me in the mountains, I have no fear as I am seldom alone and never unprepared. Those who take offense to the truth seldom confront others who are well armed or in the company of others. As a rule, the Apache of the past held to that rule of battle. Seldom is the KEY word back there, so don't recite the exceptions of that rule to me, I am already aware of them.
I do understand the Apache of the period we are discussing. Understanding and accepting their behavior are two seperate things. If you read the history of the tribes and their first contact with others, you will both have a better, less emotional grasp on this subject. You both seem to have no understanding of what brought the Americans and Mexicans to the deploreable actions that they took. It is popular in this day to place all the blame on one side. Their are people who place all of the blame on America for the problems of today.
Perhaps you should both read your history from the Pima viewpoint, or any of the other tribes who were terrorized by the Apache of the past. The end of the Apache threat in this country was justifiable in the eyes of most who had come into contact with them. Since we did not experience those Apache, our perspective may be skewed. That goes double if we are in the habit of wearing rose colored glasses and only take them off when viewing our own ancestors.
Since none of us lived in that time period, like the parrot, we can only repeat what we hear, or read in my case. Peter, you are the one who is repeating what you are being told by your friends. What they say may be the truth. As a non-Indian, I will accept our side as my truth. We were the only ones writing that history and that includes both sides of the story.
It is not my intent to damage the sensitivities of you boys, but truth is always the best medicine for the uninformed masses.
Peter,
You are incorrect in your statement that "they were not farmers nor did they have an agrarian society." Once they were on the run from the Army, it is a true statement. Prior to that time, it is an incorrect statement.
I have never encountered another person (even once) in my area of interest and that includes Peter's Papago. Can you make the same statement? My family has been all over your area for years and it is rough. I would love to transfer that terrain into my own area.
Only a few people know that I put off packing into the mountains because of the rain. My concern was warranted. Only one person would have given that information to you. Your skirts are showing. It is best not to expose them unless you would like to make your sources public to the forum. I will not.
Take Care,
Joe
Joe joe joe
Besides your revisionist drivel from the white point of view (which I find somewhat humorous) your OWN skirts have been showing for quite sometime. Course it is interesting to see the info you divulge in your own long-winded, though obtuse and usually confused posts.
No need to fret about my sources....or resources for that matter. They are both numerous and varied.
Your area of interest has absolutely no interest to myself or others. And the last 2 times I have been blundering about my own "area" I have seen nothing in the way of folks...and heard only the wind........
Besides your revisionist drivel from the white point of view (which I find somewhat humorous) your OWN skirts have been showing for quite sometime. Course it is interesting to see the info you divulge in your own long-winded, though obtuse and usually confused posts.
No need to fret about my sources....or resources for that matter. They are both numerous and varied.
Your area of interest has absolutely no interest to myself or others. And the last 2 times I have been blundering about my own "area" I have seen nothing in the way of folks...and heard only the wind........
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Windy
Peter,
No doubt whistling between your ears.
Revisionist? Thankfully others, rather than yourself, will judge my statements. It is never a good idea to rewrite history to conform to your own vision of the truth, be you white man or red. Perhaps the Indian point of view is the correct one. Are you an Indian? I grew up with Indians and have a fair view of them.
Your sources concerning me are not varied or numerous and you an your source know that best. No need to embarrass yourself or your friend by continuing that obvious fabrication.
It would probably be a good idea to return to the LDM, as you are over your head and beyond your historical knowledge in this conversation.
Joe
No doubt whistling between your ears.
Revisionist? Thankfully others, rather than yourself, will judge my statements. It is never a good idea to rewrite history to conform to your own vision of the truth, be you white man or red. Perhaps the Indian point of view is the correct one. Are you an Indian? I grew up with Indians and have a fair view of them.
Your sources concerning me are not varied or numerous and you an your source know that best. No need to embarrass yourself or your friend by continuing that obvious fabrication.
It would probably be a good idea to return to the LDM, as you are over your head and beyond your historical knowledge in this conversation.
Joe
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No Nerves
Peter,
If it seems to you that I took your jabs personally, you are mistaken. I recognize bait when I see it and have no problem answering in kind. I have said it before and will say it again, I enjoy our little debates. I will not turn blue in the face though. The forum has a tendancy to grow a little stale from time to time. I notice a little more participation when we get going on these jags. What happened to Wiz? Checking out my sources on the Apache eating habits, I suppose.
Good Hunting,
Joe
If it seems to you that I took your jabs personally, you are mistaken. I recognize bait when I see it and have no problem answering in kind. I have said it before and will say it again, I enjoy our little debates. I will not turn blue in the face though. The forum has a tendancy to grow a little stale from time to time. I notice a little more participation when we get going on these jags. What happened to Wiz? Checking out my sources on the Apache eating habits, I suppose.
Good Hunting,
Joe
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Nerves
Sir Peter,
Did I hit a nerve? Take some deep breaths, break three or four number two pencils and try to regain control of yourself. In your many attempts to slant my comments you are starting to look foolish. While true you can't speak for everyone, you are making every attempt to speak for me. My words will speak for themselves, thank you very much. You will not change history, no matter how blue your face gets.
I understand that you believe that all the writers that you and your friends disagree with are liers. That may even be true. Your call.
It's possible that everyone else will agree with your assessment of my mental abilities and low moral character. I don't discount the possibility that you are correct. If that is the case, I will have no problem rethinking my statements on the Apache, prior to the time that the last wild one walked into a Mexican village and became a Mexican.
Your humble servant,
Joe Ribaudo
Did I hit a nerve? Take some deep breaths, break three or four number two pencils and try to regain control of yourself. In your many attempts to slant my comments you are starting to look foolish. While true you can't speak for everyone, you are making every attempt to speak for me. My words will speak for themselves, thank you very much. You will not change history, no matter how blue your face gets.
I understand that you believe that all the writers that you and your friends disagree with are liers. That may even be true. Your call.
It's possible that everyone else will agree with your assessment of my mental abilities and low moral character. I don't discount the possibility that you are correct. If that is the case, I will have no problem rethinking my statements on the Apache, prior to the time that the last wild one walked into a Mexican village and became a Mexican.
Your humble servant,
Joe Ribaudo
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Peter,
You have every right to pat yourself on the back for that correction. Considering you can't spell can't, I wouldn't press your luck on the spelling thing. Perhaps they were all reclining. You do, however, have liar and imbecilic well entrenched and correctlly placed in your own head. This in no way implies that I personally think you are an imbecile or a liar, so please don't take offense. Those accusations are best left to those with weak minds and no valid arguments to present. Some who have no facts to rebut a statement, will resort to personal attacks on the person who made that statement. It would be nice if someone would attack my source (rather than me) with one of your own. I know it's difficult to do that, when you have no sources for your disagreement, other than your own feelings and emotions. I could have presented either side and given sources for both. The point of the whole thing, was that the culture that was encountered left little room for common ground. It went downhill from there. That is not to say that the good padres did not deal with these problems in other places, they just couldn't get the Apaches to quit killing, something they absolutley loved to do, long enough to create a bridge to the church. Perhaps they never really did have an interest in improving the lives of the Indians or saving their souls. Your call again.
It's good to be back and nice to know that you missed me.
Joe
You have every right to pat yourself on the back for that correction. Considering you can't spell can't, I wouldn't press your luck on the spelling thing. Perhaps they were all reclining. You do, however, have liar and imbecilic well entrenched and correctlly placed in your own head. This in no way implies that I personally think you are an imbecile or a liar, so please don't take offense. Those accusations are best left to those with weak minds and no valid arguments to present. Some who have no facts to rebut a statement, will resort to personal attacks on the person who made that statement. It would be nice if someone would attack my source (rather than me) with one of your own. I know it's difficult to do that, when you have no sources for your disagreement, other than your own feelings and emotions. I could have presented either side and given sources for both. The point of the whole thing, was that the culture that was encountered left little room for common ground. It went downhill from there. That is not to say that the good padres did not deal with these problems in other places, they just couldn't get the Apaches to quit killing, something they absolutley loved to do, long enough to create a bridge to the church. Perhaps they never really did have an interest in improving the lives of the Indians or saving their souls. Your call again.
It's good to be back and nice to know that you missed me.
Joe
How was your "hike",Joe
The time was right for your trip,We have been out almost every week.
The rains always expose the presents of man.I hope your journey was pleasant.
We found a practice bomb fragment and targets from WW2.Several of the cactus markers are down. We noted attempts of them to obscure the signs of early habitations and ruins of Indians.I think "they"destroy more history than is saved. The water falls off the cliff faces,clouds over the mountains ,and down the canyons were fantastic. Those weather fronts wont be back until next year.The rains have kept us from further inspections of the filled mine shaft.The hike is very steep and requires 2-4 people to make it happen.The original trail is now wilderness area.The mine in on BLM.but the shafts may travel into wilderness or state trust.
Thats just screwed up!
We flipped several tons of earth on our last look.Nothing to brag about.
After the Dons celebrations we will continue towards the Quest,
Do the Indians still practices during April?
The rains always expose the presents of man.I hope your journey was pleasant.
We found a practice bomb fragment and targets from WW2.Several of the cactus markers are down. We noted attempts of them to obscure the signs of early habitations and ruins of Indians.I think "they"destroy more history than is saved. The water falls off the cliff faces,clouds over the mountains ,and down the canyons were fantastic. Those weather fronts wont be back until next year.The rains have kept us from further inspections of the filled mine shaft.The hike is very steep and requires 2-4 people to make it happen.The original trail is now wilderness area.The mine in on BLM.but the shafts may travel into wilderness or state trust.
Thats just screwed up!
We flipped several tons of earth on our last look.Nothing to brag about.
After the Dons celebrations we will continue towards the Quest,
Do the Indians still practices during April?
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I am sure most of the members know who Ron Feldman is. I have not made it a secret that I always use the OK Corral for my trips into the Supes. I know him to be trustworthy, especially where it concerns the comings and goings of the people he packs into the mountains. I consider Ron and the hands who work for him to be personal friends. Trust is the first requirement in seeking out a professional packer for trips into the Superstitions, at least for me.
The OK Corral has never, nor will it ever, be a source of information on me, my comings and goings in the Supes or any others they may pack in.
Nice to be able to say that about anyone in this day and age, and know you can take that statement to the bank.
Joe Ribaudo
The OK Corral has never, nor will it ever, be a source of information on me, my comings and goings in the Supes or any others they may pack in.
Nice to be able to say that about anyone in this day and age, and know you can take that statement to the bank.
Joe Ribaudo
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Timing
Scott,
Thanks for your good wishes on my recent trip. You have been quiet for awhile. I consider you to be a lucky man to spend so much time in the mountains and I assume that's why no posts. It was indeed a thing of beauty in the mountains and the rain made conditions perfect. I think I made the right choice not to pack in Sunday morning and I believe Ron might agree with that decision. Wouldn't want to get my tootsies wet, might start sniveling and I hate it when that happens.
Sounds like you are still making progress and I wish you luck in your very interesting search. The history you are uncovering could be more valuable than any golden reward. I know a number of people who would agree with that last statement. I would consider it the achevment of a lifetime to find the location of the LDM, full of gold or empty.
Proving the existance of Salt River crossings directly south of Fort McDowell was a rewarding experience for me and those who took my theory without the proverbial "grain of salt." Turning a suspicion or hunch (much as you and other Dutch Hunters often do) into a provable fact is always exciting.
I would not ignore the possibility that Peter's Papago could be in the mountains at any time of the year. Just because I'm paranoid, does not mean no one is out to get me. The habit of looking beyond the next ridge dies hard, even after all these years.
I hope your facts are all golden.
Best wishes,
Joe
Thanks for your good wishes on my recent trip. You have been quiet for awhile. I consider you to be a lucky man to spend so much time in the mountains and I assume that's why no posts. It was indeed a thing of beauty in the mountains and the rain made conditions perfect. I think I made the right choice not to pack in Sunday morning and I believe Ron might agree with that decision. Wouldn't want to get my tootsies wet, might start sniveling and I hate it when that happens.
Sounds like you are still making progress and I wish you luck in your very interesting search. The history you are uncovering could be more valuable than any golden reward. I know a number of people who would agree with that last statement. I would consider it the achevment of a lifetime to find the location of the LDM, full of gold or empty.
Proving the existance of Salt River crossings directly south of Fort McDowell was a rewarding experience for me and those who took my theory without the proverbial "grain of salt." Turning a suspicion or hunch (much as you and other Dutch Hunters often do) into a provable fact is always exciting.
I would not ignore the possibility that Peter's Papago could be in the mountains at any time of the year. Just because I'm paranoid, does not mean no one is out to get me. The habit of looking beyond the next ridge dies hard, even after all these years.
I hope your facts are all golden.
Best wishes,
Joe