While hiking in the area I accidentally came across two men last week while searching for an old mine tunnel in the Superstitions.
They came off of the SW side of Tortilla at about Cottonwood Canyon. Crossed Peters Canyon below the washed out rock dam and went up on Peters Mesa about 1/2 mile north of the pack trail that goes up onto the Mesa out of Peters Canyon. They were far off trail and not heading in the direction of any trail I know of. They were in a hurry and carried only what looked to be 30-30's and belt knives, no camp gear at all. I was close enough to get a good look at them through my binoculars, both were definitely Native American. They disappeared and I didn't see them again. Seemed strange to me they would be so far off trail with no camp to be found.
Has anyone else seen anything like this lately? Is there anything going on in the area that might attract the concern of local Indians? Black Legion or just hikers?
azmula
STRANGE ENCOUNTER IN THE MOUNTAINS
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Newbie Dutchdigger
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Joe Ribaudo
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Faint Trail
azmula,
There is a very old trail that breaks off Peters Trail and works it's way up to a saddle on Tortilla and drops down into Peters Canyon about the area you are talking about. It crosses Peters Canyon and directly across from Cottonwood Canyon climbs up the East side of Peters Mesa to the top.
Don't let Peter's attempt at humor dampen the importance of who and what you saw. He has his own agenda on this subject, and it has nothing to do with the LDM. If the area was sensitive, I am sure that Peter would have let you know, so that you don't step on any of his friends toes. Perhaps you should reconsider your search area.
Hmmm...It would seem that Charlie has been replaced by Newbie.
Joe
There is a very old trail that breaks off Peters Trail and works it's way up to a saddle on Tortilla and drops down into Peters Canyon about the area you are talking about. It crosses Peters Canyon and directly across from Cottonwood Canyon climbs up the East side of Peters Mesa to the top.
Don't let Peter's attempt at humor dampen the importance of who and what you saw. He has his own agenda on this subject, and it has nothing to do with the LDM. If the area was sensitive, I am sure that Peter would have let you know, so that you don't step on any of his friends toes. Perhaps you should reconsider your search area.
Hmmm...It would seem that Charlie has been replaced by Newbie.
Joe
Black Leather
I have heard they wear black leather, too. The Black Legion - not Joe/Heidi... I guess it complements their name. Black Legion - black leather.
It's strange how they are out riding around at 5:00 in the morning...
I wonder why?...
It's strange how they are out riding around at 5:00 in the morning...
I wonder why?...
A month ago there were two men riding in the back of a pick-up truck carrying guns. One appeared to be a pump shotgun .The other a rifle.
They were following a fence line and looking past the fence.They had no idea we were there. They seemed to be poachers looking for game.It seems safe to poach next to a fence line.It gives the impression of a barrier that is not easy to breach.It is very easy to become a "Watcher" in these hills.People travel with out looking around.These guys
also appeared to be Indians.With the increase we have had in the last 5 years of foreigners ,I would expect some have knowledge of ,or intrest in lost mines.The Men you Watched could have inherited an old Spanish map and are searching as we are.
But I do not discredit your feelings.I am a person who will watch others at a distance and try to decide their intentions. You might be show a Cache if you Watch the right people.Maybe like Waltz?
They were following a fence line and looking past the fence.They had no idea we were there. They seemed to be poachers looking for game.It seems safe to poach next to a fence line.It gives the impression of a barrier that is not easy to breach.It is very easy to become a "Watcher" in these hills.People travel with out looking around.These guys
also appeared to be Indians.With the increase we have had in the last 5 years of foreigners ,I would expect some have knowledge of ,or intrest in lost mines.The Men you Watched could have inherited an old Spanish map and are searching as we are.
But I do not discredit your feelings.I am a person who will watch others at a distance and try to decide their intentions. You might be show a Cache if you Watch the right people.Maybe like Waltz?
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Joe Ribaudo
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5 AM?
S.C.,
Where did the five in the morning comment come from?
azmula,
There are probably a lot of reasons to avoid the area your two friends were in, but the best reason is the amount and quality of searching that has taken place there. Those who are searching the Peter's Mesa area and the canyons, ravines and mountains that are adjacent to it, are following in the footsteps of a lot of ghosts. A few believe it is their own private preserve. It is probably best to leave that playground to them.
Joe
Where did the five in the morning comment come from?
azmula,
There are probably a lot of reasons to avoid the area your two friends were in, but the best reason is the amount and quality of searching that has taken place there. Those who are searching the Peter's Mesa area and the canyons, ravines and mountains that are adjacent to it, are following in the footsteps of a lot of ghosts. A few believe it is their own private preserve. It is probably best to leave that playground to them.
Joe
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Reply
Newbie,
When it is all said and done, you are the one who is probably right. There is no Black Legion. There is nothing "strange" going on - nothing other than perhaps as you suggest - hunters being out and about.
However, people like to speculate and the mountains have so much lore attached to them that unusual explanations to ordinary events seems to be the preference.
When it is all said and done, you are the one who is probably right. There is no Black Legion. There is nothing "strange" going on - nothing other than perhaps as you suggest - hunters being out and about.
However, people like to speculate and the mountains have so much lore attached to them that unusual explanations to ordinary events seems to be the preference.
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Joe Ribaudo
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No Name Indians
azmula,
The defenders of the No Name Indian Tribe have tried to make a point here. Like the Sierra Madre Apache of the early nineteen hundreds, we are being told they don't exist. It would seem that the name you have used is the catalyst for circling the proverbial wagons.
Perhaps for future use, we should give them a more politically correct moniker. Since they were headed for Peter's Mesa, I was thinking maybe Peter's Papago would be a nice choice. 
It's possible they were visiting Geronimo's cave of gold, as they were traveling thru the correct general area. We have been told they monitor this forum (good idea), so maybe they will give us some input on this name matter.
The area your searching has more then it's share of caves and tunnels, so you will have a lot to choose from. If you see a herd of wild horses, led by a white stallion, get out of there fast. It is the Peter's Mesa Ghost Herd of the mid-thirties. The ghost of Walt Gassler should be astride that stallion. Anyone visiting that area will need a little effort to avoid Dutch Hunters, Ghosts of Dutch Hunters, hikers, campers and the occasional small gathering of Peter's Papago.
Joe
The defenders of the No Name Indian Tribe have tried to make a point here. Like the Sierra Madre Apache of the early nineteen hundreds, we are being told they don't exist. It would seem that the name you have used is the catalyst for circling the proverbial wagons.
Perhaps for future use, we should give them a more politically correct moniker. Since they were headed for Peter's Mesa, I was thinking maybe Peter's Papago would be a nice choice. It's possible they were visiting Geronimo's cave of gold, as they were traveling thru the correct general area. We have been told they monitor this forum (good idea), so maybe they will give us some input on this name matter.The area your searching has more then it's share of caves and tunnels, so you will have a lot to choose from. If you see a herd of wild horses, led by a white stallion, get out of there fast. It is the Peter's Mesa Ghost Herd of the mid-thirties. The ghost of Walt Gassler should be astride that stallion.
Anyone visiting that area will need a little effort to avoid Dutch Hunters, Ghosts of Dutch Hunters, hikers, campers and the occasional small gathering of Peter's Papago. Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Interesting how the supposed sighting of 2 Amerindian men in the Mountains has some of you in hysterics. I'm not sure if you folks are aware of it, but there are LOTS of Amerindians in Arizona...many live just east of the Superstitions. Several hikers/LDM hunters have had encounters
with Amerindians in the mountains in the past.
Were/are they all related to Joes "Black Legion"? Were/are any of them?
Who can say for sure. I beleive there is some truth in most legends, but lots of untruth too.
Not sure if there are any "Ghost Herds" up that way. Last time I passed thru I didnt see a soul...but I did see lots of garbage and discarded camp gear lying about...area does seem to be a busy one...and frequented by folks who dont have a whole lot of respect for the mountains or mother earth (and I am hardly a tree-hugger here...as those who have talked to me for any length of time know..however it does wrankle me when lazy slobs refuse to either pack out, bury or burn their garbage).
with Amerindians in the mountains in the past.
Were/are they all related to Joes "Black Legion"? Were/are any of them?
Who can say for sure. I beleive there is some truth in most legends, but lots of untruth too.
Not sure if there are any "Ghost Herds" up that way. Last time I passed thru I didnt see a soul...but I did see lots of garbage and discarded camp gear lying about...area does seem to be a busy one...and frequented by folks who dont have a whole lot of respect for the mountains or mother earth (and I am hardly a tree-hugger here...as those who have talked to me for any length of time know..however it does wrankle me when lazy slobs refuse to either pack out, bury or burn their garbage).
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Joe Ribaudo
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Who's Who?
Peter,
Not many of us involved in this conversation, so I assume I am one of those in the hysterical catagory. I have studiously avoided using the name of the group, now know as Peter's Papago, since they are now, no longer with us and it could bring back their spirits to haunt me. It would seem that the serious concern over this issue, is from those who keep bringing up the name of the ones who are no longer among us.
On a more serious note, it is a shame that others do not share our concern over keeping the Superstitions as pristine as possible. The Apache, unlike other tribes, kept a clean camp and we should all follow their example. My team creates a lot of trash during our stay. What can't be burned in the campfire goes into plastic trash bags and is packed out in a panniar. The wranglers usually groan at the number of packhorses we require for our trips, but we pay well.
Joe
Not many of us involved in this conversation, so I assume I am one of those in the hysterical catagory.
I have studiously avoided using the name of the group, now know as Peter's Papago, since they are now, no longer with us and it could bring back their spirits to haunt me. It would seem that the serious concern over this issue, is from those who keep bringing up the name of the ones who are no longer among us. On a more serious note, it is a shame that others do not share our concern over keeping the Superstitions as pristine as possible. The Apache, unlike other tribes, kept a clean camp and we should all follow their example. My team creates a lot of trash during our stay. What can't be burned in the campfire goes into plastic trash bags and is packed out in a panniar. The wranglers usually groan at the number of packhorses we require for our trips, but we pay well.
Joe
Joe
You?.. Hysterical? nah........
The last time I passed thru the area of the Charlebois Trail just to the west the hairpin turn the area was a mess. Papers, wrappers, discarded camp equipment, coffee cans, gatorade and beer cans lay strewn about.
(Alas the beer cans were empty...) I cleaned up a little, but the place was still just ...yuk. Down in Peters near the head of the canyon before the climb up to the saddle I found a camp back in some brush and trees...lots of empty 1 gallon water containers around..I left them in peace..figuring the folks who left em might have a use for them in the future.
Thing is, most folks that take the time to read this forum probably have nothing to do with leaving junk around....
You?.. Hysterical? nah........
The last time I passed thru the area of the Charlebois Trail just to the west the hairpin turn the area was a mess. Papers, wrappers, discarded camp equipment, coffee cans, gatorade and beer cans lay strewn about.
(Alas the beer cans were empty...) I cleaned up a little, but the place was still just ...yuk. Down in Peters near the head of the canyon before the climb up to the saddle I found a camp back in some brush and trees...lots of empty 1 gallon water containers around..I left them in peace..figuring the folks who left em might have a use for them in the future.
Thing is, most folks that take the time to read this forum probably have nothing to do with leaving junk around....
Ghost herds? Oh yeahhh.
Someone mentioned "ghost herds," so I'm baaack, hehe. Just when ya think you're out, they pull ya back in! Actually, I had to take care of some family business, and have been swamped working on the movie(s).
Welcome newcomers.
Some good threads.
Has anyone been in contact with Sims Ely III (at least, I think the third)?
ciao for niao
n
Welcome newcomers.
Some good threads.
Has anyone been in contact with Sims Ely III (at least, I think the third)?
ciao for niao
n
What's the big deal?
So you saw some guys with guns???? So? What's the big deal. The way I see it, one would have to be a near idiot to to travel around in the wilderness WITHOUT some type of firearm. They come in handy for defence from animals, other people and could be used to signal others in case of an accident ot injury. I NEVER head out without a firearm...I just keep it concealed.
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Dlo' Binanta'
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While I do not travel about armed, I always feel better if some type of armament is within reach...one never knows. I dont know how much the animal threat out there is, at least the threat that a firearm could deter/prevent. Anyone ever have any trouble with a lion or some such critter? I'd wager most havent. Snakes and bees are the things to watch out for.
I once traveled the mountains every weekend.North in the summer and
south during winter. I would buy every old topo map I found. I located a
likely spot at a mill site.The road to the mill was overgrown with pine trees over 6ft tall.I watched the 1/10 click off the odometer on the way in.
I must of lost the road and found my self heading down hill thru the Ponderosa's .The truck I had was underpowered and overloaded.As dusk was apon ,I became stuck.Trees blocked the way and backing up fully loaded was not going to happen.The odometer and ww2 bomber altimeter
told me I was within the general area.I had about 20 mins of light left.
I found a concrete pad about 100 feet away.This looked to be the place.
I set up a camp.I could smell and hear water further down hill.It was very
dark until the moon rose behind me.I crashed out for several hours and was awoken around 2-3 AM. I wondered why I awoke.It must have been the six pack of beer I drank. I stoodup and took a few steps.Right in front of me less than 5 feet were widely spaced glowing eyes close to the
ground.A gutteral growl and grunt was followed by a flury of movement on my part as I tried to fly like a wet turkey.I only heard the echo of my scream as toes touched solid ground. The mud that was splattered on my backside had to of come from the beast of the night as it tore off.
The next morning I tracked the puma tracks into a canyon where I was able to see a female and a cub.The placer was poor in quanity but showed mercury contamination. I left that canyon and lion alone.
I had to cut down a tree to drive out. I started to take a radio with with me .Left in on all night , Seemed to keep my mind off the noises just out of sight in the dark,which I always heard for the next couple of seasons.
south during winter. I would buy every old topo map I found. I located a
likely spot at a mill site.The road to the mill was overgrown with pine trees over 6ft tall.I watched the 1/10 click off the odometer on the way in.
I must of lost the road and found my self heading down hill thru the Ponderosa's .The truck I had was underpowered and overloaded.As dusk was apon ,I became stuck.Trees blocked the way and backing up fully loaded was not going to happen.The odometer and ww2 bomber altimeter
told me I was within the general area.I had about 20 mins of light left.
I found a concrete pad about 100 feet away.This looked to be the place.
I set up a camp.I could smell and hear water further down hill.It was very
dark until the moon rose behind me.I crashed out for several hours and was awoken around 2-3 AM. I wondered why I awoke.It must have been the six pack of beer I drank. I stoodup and took a few steps.Right in front of me less than 5 feet were widely spaced glowing eyes close to the
ground.A gutteral growl and grunt was followed by a flury of movement on my part as I tried to fly like a wet turkey.I only heard the echo of my scream as toes touched solid ground. The mud that was splattered on my backside had to of come from the beast of the night as it tore off.
The next morning I tracked the puma tracks into a canyon where I was able to see a female and a cub.The placer was poor in quanity but showed mercury contamination. I left that canyon and lion alone.
I had to cut down a tree to drive out. I started to take a radio with with me .Left in on all night , Seemed to keep my mind off the noises just out of sight in the dark,which I always heard for the next couple of seasons.
The last two out of three times out I had use for a firearm. Last week in Salt River Canyon (San Carlos Apache Reservation) a Rattler got between my 2 and 5 year old and the RV...no more Rattler. Two weeks before that a Cougar came to visit about 2 am up in Whispering Pines. This Cougar had brought down an Elk just three days before. He went on his (or her) marry way but I kept it in the sites as it investigated the camp just in case. Gold Mining has also historicly attracted those who wish to take ones findings without doing the work. A Pick...a shovel...a pistol... the three best tools of a prospector. It keeps the family safe and the neighbors honest.