I have recently read a book by Ralph Holder, “Mistic Memories of the Superstition Mountains”. Mr. Holder referenced a “treasure list” that was supposed to be part of the Jesuit treasure removed from Mexico by the priests prior to their expulsion. The translation was apparently misinterpreted. I would like to see if I would be allowed to translate from the original?
Mr. Holder also had a picture of a pair of Stone Crosses that appear to have similar signs and symbols to the Stone Maps. Does anyone know where the crosses are located today? Is there a better photo to study? Are these the “Bilbery Crosses”? Is there a more detailed history of the crosses any where? Has anyone already studied or investigated these maps?
Note: I don’t care if they are real or faux.
azmula
THE BILBERY CROSSES
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Tracy L Hawkins
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To Quote Roger:
"Bilbry claimed to have found the stone cross's on the South end of Tortilla Mtn below some "X"'s that were carved on rocks. He did dig out an old shaft about 20 ft. deep that had some signs of quartz in the bottom, but the crosses were found buried close to it under gravel.
Bilbry and a friend hunted all over the area and tried to interpert the maps on the cross's and he claimed to have found several areas of old mining activity, but no LDM.
I suspect many Dutch Hunters have had a go at the Stone Cross Maps and I spent some time on them also.
Roger"
Sorry this is all I could find, perhaps Roger or someone else could elaborate with a few additional details per my original questions????
azmula
"Bilbry claimed to have found the stone cross's on the South end of Tortilla Mtn below some "X"'s that were carved on rocks. He did dig out an old shaft about 20 ft. deep that had some signs of quartz in the bottom, but the crosses were found buried close to it under gravel.
Bilbry and a friend hunted all over the area and tried to interpert the maps on the cross's and he claimed to have found several areas of old mining activity, but no LDM.
I suspect many Dutch Hunters have had a go at the Stone Cross Maps and I spent some time on them also.
Roger"
Sorry this is all I could find, perhaps Roger or someone else could elaborate with a few additional details per my original questions????
azmula
I’m curious about the background of the lost Jesuit treasure story. I’ve mainly heard of it in relation to the Celeste Marie Jones/Ed Piper dispute, and in later scattered mentions from others who seem convinced of its authenticity. None of these sources seem very authoritative.
Does anyone know of the origins of this theory? Are there instances of people discovering treasure left behind by the Jesuits after the 1767 expulsion?
Does anyone know of the origins of this theory? Are there instances of people discovering treasure left behind by the Jesuits after the 1767 expulsion?
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Tracy L Hawkins
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Thirsty
I have mentioned a couple time a set of books Ernie Province and I found at the Phoenix main library, there were two books, very big and heavy, titled " The Religious Conquest of the Americas" The first book was concerned with South America and the secod with Central America and Mexico Thes books were a bunch of documents from and to the Jesuit priests with englisn translations. Most were of no intrest to treasure hunters but a section was---according to the letters between Missions a pack train came north with the church artifacts and gold bars --the packing lists were there.. According to the maps the treasure was buried in three locations--one at what is now Fort Huachuoa---another at Soledad peak in the Hembrillo basin in what is now White Sands Proving Grounds ( The Doc Noss story ?? ) and the third in a mountain range north of the twin buttes.
Ernie and I went back to the lbrary a few days later and the books had been removed from the shelves. The librarian told us they had been removed because they were in such poor shape which was BS . We persisted in trying to get access to them and was finally told they had been removed at the request of "A major Relidgious order"
If you can find them I believe they will answer you question. I still have some of my notes.
TLH
I have mentioned a couple time a set of books Ernie Province and I found at the Phoenix main library, there were two books, very big and heavy, titled " The Religious Conquest of the Americas" The first book was concerned with South America and the secod with Central America and Mexico Thes books were a bunch of documents from and to the Jesuit priests with englisn translations. Most were of no intrest to treasure hunters but a section was---according to the letters between Missions a pack train came north with the church artifacts and gold bars --the packing lists were there.. According to the maps the treasure was buried in three locations--one at what is now Fort Huachuoa---another at Soledad peak in the Hembrillo basin in what is now White Sands Proving Grounds ( The Doc Noss story ?? ) and the third in a mountain range north of the twin buttes.
Ernie and I went back to the lbrary a few days later and the books had been removed from the shelves. The librarian told us they had been removed because they were in such poor shape which was BS . We persisted in trying to get access to them and was finally told they had been removed at the request of "A major Relidgious order"
If you can find them I believe they will answer you question. I still have some of my notes.
TLH
Thanks Tracy!
I will look for the book you mentioned.
Speaking of the Doc Noss story, I was living in El Paso in the late 1970’s when things were really heating up between the Noss heirs and the military. The story was in the paper every week, and I was hoping the mystery would soon be revealed. But here it is 20 years later, and I’m still wondering when the whole thing is going to be resolved.
I will look for the book you mentioned.
Speaking of the Doc Noss story, I was living in El Paso in the late 1970’s when things were really heating up between the Noss heirs and the military. The story was in the paper every week, and I was hoping the mystery would soon be revealed. But here it is 20 years later, and I’m still wondering when the whole thing is going to be resolved.
In case anyone wants the book from the library, I will return it in a couple of weeks. It is quite interesting I can see why "the church" would prefer it to be off the shelves, but it is still there. The correct title to find it is "A Violent Evangelism, The Political and Religious Conquest of the Americas", by Luis N. Rivera. I have also purchased a copy from the internet, $15. The expose' of "the church" could be applied to any of the major religions in one context or another. It is just life.
azmula
azmula
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Tracy L Hawkins
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Azmula
Thanks --It is very likely I didn't get the full title--old age is getting to me and my memory isn't as good as it once was.
These books were not normal size tho --they were about 16 inches by 12 and about 4 inches thick--appeared to be hand bound with leather covers. I wounder if the one by Mr Rivera is a reprint ? I will try to find a copy to see if it is the one we found. Again, thanks for the help.
TLH
Thanks --It is very likely I didn't get the full title--old age is getting to me and my memory isn't as good as it once was.
These books were not normal size tho --they were about 16 inches by 12 and about 4 inches thick--appeared to be hand bound with leather covers. I wounder if the one by Mr Rivera is a reprint ? I will try to find a copy to see if it is the one we found. Again, thanks for the help.TLH
The Bilbry shaft?
Has anyone found the 20 ft shaft that was cleared after finding the crosses on top? I have never covered a shaft or backfilled a tunnel that was drilled and blasted from solid rock.I would assume the diggings would get larger and deeper over time.I would take a look and toss out a few feet of fill just to see what lay below.Multiply the casual looks over the years and I doubt any man made hole would be ever be left alone in that area.
I'm wondering if Tracy and azmula are talking about the same book. I searched the web for that title and found the same book azmula did. It's a one-volume, 376-page, 1992 book that seems to be an indictment of the Catholic church's role in the European colonization of the Americas, written by a college professor.
Does that sound like the book(s) you read, Tracy?
Does that sound like the book(s) you read, Tracy?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Wrong Book
Tracy,
I believe azmula has the wrong book. I have read the one he is talking about and don't remember seeing what you referred to. I may need to go back and refresh my memory as well. I will look for it tomorrow.
Joe
I looked. It is the wrong book.
azmula,
If you got that book for fifteen dollars, you mad a good deal. I hope you like reading, because you will be wading thru a fairly pedantic book. When you get it, go directly to chapter 3, National Providentialism and Messianism. That will give you a good feel for what you have gotten yourself into.
Joe
I believe azmula has the wrong book. I have read the one he is talking about and don't remember seeing what you referred to. I may need to go back and refresh my memory as well. I will look for it tomorrow.
Joe
I looked. It is the wrong book.
azmula,
If you got that book for fifteen dollars, you mad a good deal. I hope you like reading, because you will be wading thru a fairly pedantic book. When you get it, go directly to chapter 3, National Providentialism and Messianism. That will give you a good feel for what you have gotten yourself into.
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sat Feb 01, 2003 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Tracy L Hawkins
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Thirsty
From what you and Joe say I would think Mr Rivera's book is not the ones we found. They may be available in a library in some other city but the last time I looked--several years ago--they were NOT available at the Phoenix library.
I have been told they were still in the archives and could be seen by making an appointment if you are a student doing research but were not available to the general public.
TLH
From what you and Joe say I would think Mr Rivera's book is not the ones we found. They may be available in a library in some other city but the last time I looked--several years ago--they were NOT available at the Phoenix library.
I have been told they were still in the archives and could be seen by making an appointment if you are a student doing research but were not available to the general public.
TLH
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Tracy L Hawkins
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Thirsty
Concerning the Doc Noss story--- I was told in the early 50's while in Korea by a sargent named Jim Crimm from Memphas Tenn that in late 1944 while in White Sands as an MP. His company was call to provide security around an opening in Victoria Peak while a group of OFFICERS carrid out a large number of crates and loaded them on trucks---they took crates in empty and came out with two men carring them--very heavy--He claimed they were told it was old ammo but couldn't believe OFFICERS would do that kind of manual labor. A couple years later at Fort Rieley Kansas a major I talked with claimed he drove one of the truck ---saud he didn't see any gold tho---just damn heavy crates that they took to a depo under heavy guard. Old ammo was hauled into the deasert and exploded.
TLH
Concerning the Doc Noss story--- I was told in the early 50's while in Korea by a sargent named Jim Crimm from Memphas Tenn that in late 1944 while in White Sands as an MP. His company was call to provide security around an opening in Victoria Peak while a group of OFFICERS carrid out a large number of crates and loaded them on trucks---they took crates in empty and came out with two men carring them--very heavy--He claimed they were told it was old ammo but couldn't believe OFFICERS would do that kind of manual labor. A couple years later at Fort Rieley Kansas a major I talked with claimed he drove one of the truck ---saud he didn't see any gold tho---just damn heavy crates that they took to a depo under heavy guard. Old ammo was hauled into the deasert and exploded.
TLH
Tracy,
I tried to find the books on "The Religious Conquest of the Americas" you are talking about but to no avail. Would you happen remember anything else about the books? I could not find anything at Phoenix Library nor could the Librarian. I checked the Library of Congress with the same result. Is there any thing else you can think of?
azmula
I tried to find the books on "The Religious Conquest of the Americas" you are talking about but to no avail. Would you happen remember anything else about the books? I could not find anything at Phoenix Library nor could the Librarian. I checked the Library of Congress with the same result. Is there any thing else you can think of?
azmula
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Tracy L Hawkins
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Azmula
I have tried several times over the years to locate those book with no luck.
About the only thing I can tell you about them is that they were about 16" by 12 " and about 4" thick. They did not appear to be machine bound but looked to be hand bound with leather covers--the pages were not clean and even cut on the outer edges. I do not remember if there was a foreword or an authors name. The left page concisted of letters and documents with an english translation on the right, Many words on the right had question marks behind them indication the words exact meaning was unknown. I would suspect not many copies exist as they are so hard to locate.
TLH
I have tried several times over the years to locate those book with no luck.
About the only thing I can tell you about them is that they were about 16" by 12 " and about 4" thick. They did not appear to be machine bound but looked to be hand bound with leather covers--the pages were not clean and even cut on the outer edges. I do not remember if there was a foreword or an authors name. The left page concisted of letters and documents with an english translation on the right, Many words on the right had question marks behind them indication the words exact meaning was unknown. I would suspect not many copies exist as they are so hard to locate.
TLH
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Joe Ribaudo
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Looking in the wrong place?
azmula,
Perhaps the search should be done in Mexico or even Spain. As a guess, I doubt they were ever published in the States. Your search of the Library of Congress indicates that is the case. There are other possibilities, but because they would not be books of general interest to the public, they are unlikely.
Joe
Perhaps the search should be done in Mexico or even Spain. As a guess, I doubt they were ever published in the States. Your search of the Library of Congress indicates that is the case. There are other possibilities, but because they would not be books of general interest to the public, they are unlikely.
Joe
Some of Tracy’s remarks on the condition and age of the books make me wonder if they weren’t simply removed from general circulation to preserve them. I’m guessing the Phoenix library might have relocated them to their reference section or (more likely), their rare book collection.
It sounds like the first library employee or two that Tracy talked to after the book's removal might have been giving him some bad information (I’ve certainly had that happen). It might be worthwhile to pursue the matter further with a more helpful librarian. My experience at the Denver library is that nearly any item in their collection is available for reading, although they keep a pretty close eye on you with some of the more rare and delicate items.
If anyone has any luck finding these books, I’d love to hear more about it!
It sounds like the first library employee or two that Tracy talked to after the book's removal might have been giving him some bad information (I’ve certainly had that happen). It might be worthwhile to pursue the matter further with a more helpful librarian. My experience at the Denver library is that nearly any item in their collection is available for reading, although they keep a pretty close eye on you with some of the more rare and delicate items.
If anyone has any luck finding these books, I’d love to hear more about it!
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Tracy L Hawkins
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Thirsty
We ( Ernie and I ) were originally told they had been removed because of their condition--that aws Bull s__t because they were in excelent condition, We persisted and were told they had been remover at the request of "A Religious Order" and could be seen ,by appointment , by serouis students but were not available to the general public. This indicates to me , the books are still in the library archives. I would certainly like to get copies of some of the letters and exp. the maps.
TLH
We ( Ernie and I ) were originally told they had been removed because of their condition--that aws Bull s__t because they were in excelent condition, We persisted and were told they had been remover at the request of "A Religious Order" and could be seen ,by appointment , by serouis students but were not available to the general public. This indicates to me , the books are still in the library archives. I would certainly like to get copies of some of the letters and exp. the maps.
TLH
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Joe Ribaudo
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books
S.C.,
I really doubt we will find Tracy's book thru any normal channels. It is unlikely that a book such as he has described was ever printed for public sale. Perhaps a private Jesuit or Church printing.
Joe
I really doubt we will find Tracy's book thru any normal channels. It is unlikely that a book such as he has described was ever printed for public sale. Perhaps a private Jesuit or Church printing.
Joe