Three Saguaros Planted In A Row

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walker12
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Three Saguaros Planted In A Row

Post by walker12 »

I have a vague recollection that some group (Spanish?, Mexicans?) planted a series of 3 saguaros in a row as clues leading to a treasure or mine. Does this have any bearing on the LDM, any other treasure/mine in the southwest or is this just another one of these rumor based tales?
Tracy L Hawkins
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Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

Walker
I have heard that someplace , However I can show you at least a dozen places in the mountains with cacti in a row. In order for that to mein anything one would have to know how far apart and in what direction they were planted. Natural selection will plant seeds and spores in a line due to the wind on that perticular day.
TLH
Aurum
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Post by Aurum »

xx
Last edited by Aurum on Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scott
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Post by Scott »

We went out to an area that we havent been to in 15-20 years Some of the cactus markers were down and all that was left were the ribs.Several were still there and did not seem to have grown much. The large old markers were down.I have not seen three in a row that are the same size.I have seen lots of trail markers carved in the sides and followed them for miles.Most seemed to show minor routes or areas to find water or shelter.
azmula
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Post by azmula »

If you want to see the remaining 3 cactus of the original 5 for your self you should hurry because the drought has weakened one and it is about to topple over. They are located along the Apache Trail near First Water Trailhead Turn-off. I have pictures, measurements, compas redings and GPS location that supports Aurum's contention of non-natural occurance in the alignment. I have heard the same declaration of natural occurance of alignment many times and when investigated you can tell quickly for yourself whether mother nature has had a helping hand.

azmula
walker12
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Post by walker12 »

Scott what do you mean by markers? The reason that I ask is my "information", if you could call it that, came many years ago listening to some guy talking to my father. This fellow had a whole story about how he had found and followed 3 (not 5 like others noted, but maybe I am mis-remembering this part of the tale) identically sized, equally spaced, perfectly aligned saguaros all over the State. He stated that each such group had a stone maker placed with it. He even claimed to have had a few of the markers he took from the saguaros.
S.C.
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Cactus

Post by S.C. »

I just want to throw in one little thing to consider about cactus. Cactus, especially those in the "wild," have elaborate root systems. These extend for hundreds of feet sometimes. I have yet to see or hear of anyone who has been able to extract a wild cactus and re-pot it in a container and have it live. Though, in some places, such an act is illegal, people have tried and have had horrible results. The reason, the roots are destroyed when they are dug up. Most roots are left in the ground and the plant's "metabolism" cannot handle the lack of water intake because of fewer roots.

Now, considering that, I think it might be extremely difficult to take several saguaro, up-root them, replant them, and have them all live and grow for decades thereafter. Not impossible. But unlikely. As unlikely as 3 or 4 seeds happening to fall in a straight line, all live, and grow to maturity.

So, what IS the explanation then?
walker12
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Post by walker12 »

S.C. you must have the proverbial brown thumb. People move wild cactus ALL the time both legally and illegally. Through the years; I myself have moved dozens of wild hedgehogs, cholla, prickly pear, etc., around in my yards as well as proprogated from cuttings with a very high success rate (90% or more). I have also volunteered with some conservation groups in moving dozens of large Joshua Trees and large yuccas to save them from mining enroachment.
Moving cactus and succulents is much easier than moving most other plants or trees. This is because they generally have very small root systems that need to be moved in order for the plant to survive. Even a large saguaro only needs to have roots about 2' from the base to survive a transplant. If you don't believe me go to a local cactus nursery. Almost all their 3' plus specimen saguaros are transplants from the wild and you can easily see the relatively small root structure. That or watch Channel 8 when they do their spring specials on planting desert plants.
Joe Ribaudo
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Cactus

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

S.C.,
Saguaro cactus are dug up and replanted on a regular basis. Young cactus that are growing in the same general area would go thru much less stress if moved into identical soil and drainage. Young cactus that survive often owe their survivial to the shade provided by a full grown saguaro. Prevailing wind patterns and hospitable soil conditions also have a lot to do with where these cactus take root. I am not a big fan of saguaro in a row meaning anything, but can see where others might give it some weight. Is there considerable distance between the cactus you are all talking about? If I were to go into other areas of the State, say West of Phoenix on 10, would I find this same pattern being repeated? Walker 12
seems to think they may be found everywhere. I confess, I have not looked once. My knowledge is second hand from the cactus farm here in town. Saguaro of all size are dug up and tranplanted all the time. There is a house in town with a twenty foot saguaro inside. They open special windows around the top at night, so that bats can fly in and pollinize the thing. It is an impressive cactus.
Joe

Oops,
Walker 12 slipped that in there while I was typing.
Scott
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Post by Scott »

The Spanish cactus markers I have seen were three rings and 5 rings that wrapped around the upper 3 feet of the uppermost central body of mature saguaro cacti. Suspect Spanish markers on cactus were daggers ,squares and slashes.
These cacti can be easily transplanted,the main root system can sustain massive disruption and regenerate completely in less than a year.
There was a large transplanting project here when the Lake Pleasent expansion was underway .Several thousand cactus were moved.The major problems are overwatering .
The cactus markers were taught to me by a Man who gain this info from San Carlos Indians that he brought out to decipher(sic) the markers in the late 40's. The Spanish would treat the cactus carvings different from The indians,These scars on the cactus would be different colors and types.and most were easily detected years ago.Lost are those that I once held sacred.
Joe Ribaudo
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Wow

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

As I have said before: There is a lot of knowledge on this forum. If we could all work together on the LDM puzzle, it wouldn't stand a chance. :lol:
Joe
Scott
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connect the dots

Post by Scott »

Walker,

The cactus markers took many different types. There are places that were used as "training " areas for cactus maps. I have followed many runs and checked the caches that were left.My impressions are these,
The markers lead to supplies:water,shelter,food,family,supplies.These markers were made to allow relatives to visit different locales and to find buried caches of water and planted crops ,or game trails.Some trails are easy to follow,others seem to run you into cholla hell.
Most of what we see today are scars that were once fresh cuts .These fresh cuts were used to guide the travelers.The Spanish markings were treated.The process is not to me ,But the markers from the Spanish are very different from healed cuts.
walker12
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Re: Cactus

Post by walker12 »

[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]S.C.,
Walker 12
seems to think they may be found everywhere. [/quote]

That is far from the truth. I personally have only seen one place where that is the case. I was simply posting what another fellow claimed to get feedback from the brain trust. It seems this is not a popular TREASURE legend in general let alone clues related to the LDM.

Thanks for the responses.
S.C.
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Reply

Post by S.C. »

I stand corrected. I suppose there are masters of horticulture out there capable of anything. All I know is what I have been told by some - no doubt conservative - individuals said in trying to discourage anyone from even trying to uproot a wild cactus.

If that is the case, then I have to say the odds are in favor of "man made" occurances of such alignments than the "natural" random 1 in a gazillion chances of them to happen by chance.
Joe Ribaudo
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Random Chance

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Walker 12,
Sorry, I hate to be misquoted and I hate misquoting others.
S.C.,
I would guess that it is less random then we might think. I will look next chance I get.

Good to see Scott back on a more regular basis. Interesting post on reasons for cactus markers. I think we have covered the cactus horticulture pretty well. Now, are they markers that have lead anyone besides Scott to anything?
Joe
charlie
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Post by charlie »

Walker12,

Charles Kenworthy reports on trail markers leading to Spanish family mines. The Peralta family had, roughly, eight mines reported in the Superstitions. Another intermarried family supposedly had six mines.

Each of these mines, if following the royal edit on marking trails to mines, would have markers to the mines. Cactus were reported to be marked by cutting the top and causing the cactus to bracnh outward, marking the base and a branch.

The question remains, How long does a cactus remain viable in the environment as a marker? I would expect that deeply marking the earth would last longer, provided it was not in a river basin.
Charlie
Scott
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Post by Scott »

The Spanish cactus markers that were shown to me are all down.These were off of Peralta trail and were seen as 3 or 5 lines that circled the top of the cactus.These cacti were very old and showing signs of decay. I was shown many markers on cactus.The Spanish were treated after being cut.This changed the way the scar heals and is different from other scars.I feel the cactus lives a lot longer than 200 yrs.Some cactus dont seem to grow at all. Others will grow an arm in 15 years.
It seems that almost all Spanish markers are gone.The cactus are down.The monuments markers for mines were torn apart in history or by other hunters who figured they deciphered the "map" and took the markers down to keep others from following them .I have built modern monuments to indicate a mining claim.Most would not last the year.
I have seen several large Spanish mine markers. One was a large cross.The face of a cliff appox 60 high had a 15x10 foot area that was chipped clean and a cross was then chipped into this lighter area.Not real visible to the average hiker.This with other markers and a map helped locate a filled and hidden mine on the other side of that cliff.
When these mines were buried and hidden 100 + yrs ago they were invisible.The area was made to look natural.
Roger
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Saguaros in A Row

Post by Roger »

Estee Conaster in her book, The Sterling Legend (1972), wrote on page 74:

"Before leaving the subject of saguaros and their connection (if any) to the alleged gold of the Superstitions there is something else that should be pointed out. Considerable emphasis has been placed by some individuals on series of saquaros that have grown to form a straight line. These are thought by many to have been planted by man, persumably the Peraltas, in such a fashion to act as a treasure marker. In fact, this writer has found a group of seven giant saguaros growing in just such a fashion on the side of a mountain a mile or so east of Tortilla Mountain. They cold not possibly have formed a straigher line had they been planted by someone using a gigantic straight-edge. It is very easy to understand why someone might believe they were planted. Of course, it is possible that they were but there are some sound reasons for doubt."

It is important to note here that the number "7" was used by the Spanish and Mexicans to represent gold. Seven saguaros planted in a straight line could conceivably be a direction indicator to a gold mine or hidden cache.

Roger
walker12
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Post by walker12 »

I recently talked briefly with my father about this subject. Here is a summary of his added information.

He corrected me and stated that there were FOUR saguaros planted in a row.
The fellow that shared this legend with him was Ken Brown.
In the base of one of the four saguaros was a stone with a compass heading. The orientation of the saguaros was meaningless except as a marker to find them and the stone with the compass heading. These stones were supposedly removed and sent to a musuem. No, my father did not know which museum.
Ken Brown took my father to 4 such saguaro locations in the Sups and Goldfields. He also took him to a played out mine (Spanish?) in the Goldfields that he claimed to have found using the saguaro stones. He also claimed to have uncovered the shaft by removing rock rubble and timbers placed across the inside of the round shaft hole.
I can only guarantee you that my father saw 4 saguaros in a row in 4 places. In each such place there were marks in the bottom of one of the saguaros where something could have been placed/recently removed. He also saw a round shaft hole with scattered timbers and rock rubble. The rest of Ken's tale may or may not be true.

If any of you know of a museum with such compass stones AND where they came from this might be an interesting series of clues. Then again Ken had this information for probably 40 years of at least casual searching and he never struck it rich.
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Museum Quality?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

walker12,

Interesting post. A little more LDM history to add to the mix. The museum part seems a little unlikely for me. Once the stones are removed from the cactus they are, well, just stones. I doubt if any museum would be interested unless they had markings. Did they have any markings? Ken's story seems a little suspect to me. The fact that all of the cactus that Mr. Brown showed your father had the stones recently removed would indicate, to me at least, that Ken Brown had been the likely perp to remove the stones or mark the cactus to make it look like something had been there. His mine in the Goldfields is not so unusual for this area. There is just such a pit, not more then two hundred feet from the West side of the Apache Trail North of First Water. It is one of many.
If I were to take a wild guess, it would be that Ken Brown might have had some sort of agenda. You or your father would be the best judges of his motives.
I don't know Mr. Brown, so this is just speculation, based on the facts you gave us.

With your family history, and your own (obvious) knowledge of LDM lore, you could add a lot more to this forum. Do us all a favor and jump into the conversations on a more regular basis.

Joe
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Re: Museum quality

Post by Aurum »

xx
Last edited by Aurum on Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
walker12
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Post by walker12 »

Joe, you make an interesting point about Ken's motives. I should note however that my family had no extra money to invest in a speculative mining/treasure hunt. Thus, Ken would have been wasting his time if that was his goal. In fact, as far as I know Ken never asked anyone for money or shared his information beyond my father. Then again I never really knew the man. While this sounds like boastful family pride, my father could be trusted to keep a confidence. He also knew the Sups fairly well and had some gold mining knowledge. Thus, my father was exactly the sort of fellow that Ken could use as a sounding board for second opinions about what he had found. All these second opinions turned out to be Ken found some old played out mines.

Ken claimed to have met a fellow that removed and showed him the stones. Whether Ken found and removed a stone or two I have no clue. This unnamed fellow was writing a paper (or book chapter?) on the stones and donating the stones to a museum.

Your information about the mine by the trail is also right on. One my father and Ken visited fits your description.

Your gracious invitation to participate more is appreciated. However, I am really just a hiker that occassionally visits the area. I am far from a historian of the legends.

Arum, those could indeed be the stones. They should have compass arrows on them if my information is correct. Then again I don't know how they work. Do you have to place the stone exactly as found and follow the arrow a set distance? Do you place two stones at two saguaro locations and follow the arrows to the intersection? Do you place the stones at the site and align one arrow to north and follow the another arrow? Etc. The next time you serious hunters are in a museum dealing with mining, spanish or mexican history this tale might be worth some further searching. It could also be there is a paper on this subject somewhere in ASU or another university.

Again, this is just second hand (at best) information. They guy that passed it one had it all (and more?) and he didn't find gold in over 40 years of off-and-on searching. Or, if he did he didn't tell anybody or spend money like he did. Take it with at least the usual grain of salt.
Joe Ribaudo
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Sounds Better.

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

walker12,
You have fleshed out a story that needed some help. I believe you, along with Aurum, have set the hook a little deeper. It may be that some of the other members can add to this story. It may also be that some of the older members ran across your father's friend, or know him.
That pit beside the Apache Trail is well know to the old timers. It tells me something about you. You are too modest.
Joe
azdave35
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4 cactus

Post by azdave35 »

there was a man in the late 1970's that found a treasue in the area of the lost dutchman state park....he told me that 4 cactus in a row was one of the markers
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