Peralta Letter

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
TGH
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Post by TGH »

HD

There were TWO Jake manuscripts. One was the 800 page epic tome that you speak about. Another was about 180 pages and written some time before the prison manuscript. Some of the things he mentions in the 180 manuscript are for the most part on the money...

P
Joe Ribaudo
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Two Manuscripts

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

George,

If he can be coaxed out of retirement, I believe ( ) would be the one to put this topic to bed. While I could say a lot more, the information I have came from another source in a PM. If he does not want to return to the forum, in his prior identity, and tell what he knows, it will remain in the dark. If he gives me the OK to repeat what I was told, I will be happy to do so. I assume he is still here.

It is a very interesting tale, which sheds a lot of light on what has been said here.

Respectfully,

Joe
Gene Reynolds
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The Crazy Jake Truth

Post by Gene Reynolds »

Well - you guys put me up to the challenge and now I have enough answers that I think we can put up the facts about Crazy Jake once and for all.........and end all the guess work about him and Ruth........

He died June 27, l994 at
John C. Lincoln Hospital, Phoenix, Arizona. Was born December
17, l928.
He died of Congestive Heart Failure, Hyponic Encephelopathy,
and
Coronary Artery Disease.
Jake was born at Kearney, New Jersey. His SSN is
149-14-9040.
His official occupation is Automotive Mechanic.

Now the question arises - did was Crazy Jake President of the Lincoln Continental Clue in Washington, D.C. =

Answer = The club is now defunct (hope i spelled that right) - and I could not reach John Anderson - past Sec./Tres. and good friends with Erwin Ruth. However - I have been assured by many people that knew Crazy Jake personnaly that the only close resemblance was the name of the President and Jakes were close but jakes middle name is Simpson. Crazy Jake never new Adolph or Erwin because Erwins files were still intact in 1966 - long after Crazy Jake got to Arizona.. Erwin was quoted as saying to a friend " I wouldn't sell these files even for a new car." I wouldn't take the time to gather them together".

On top of it all - if Jake has Ruths files = he would never have been searching in Peter's Mesa......not even close.!!!

In Jake's 180 page manuscript - he never mentioned knowing or even speaking to and Ruth's. In general Robert Simpson Jacob (crazy Jake) was a perectly normal person until 1971 when there was a bad occurance in his life that changed the man forever.

In conclusion - Crazy Jake did not have any part of the Ruth files when he came to Arizona around 1960. It would not matter what he wrote after 1971 - and or the 800 pages he wrote while in prison simply because the earliest truth would have been written in the first 180 page manuscript.

I hope this will conclude all the talk of Jake and having knowledge of and facts pertaining to where any mine might be located in the Superstitions..... He had nothing but stories and some were very intertaining..... but were just that.

I have spoken to more than 40 people of authority just to gather these facts and worked hard on this for 2 straight days. I hope I have found enough to satisfy everyone's curiousity about Crazy Jake.

I'm satisfied - Gene Reynolds

I also want to thank each of you that gave me excellent information - you know who you are - thanks for great team work..!
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azdave35
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Post by azdave35 »

thanks gene....i for one am very happy to see you back on the forum...hopefully for good
Joe Ribaudo
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I For Two!

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Dave,

What you said. :wink:

Respectfully,

Joe
redison
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Crazy Jake

Post by redison »

Great piece of work Gene,

A lot of detailed objective information that cannot be disputed.

But it also contains a lot of subjective information. There is a lot of room for dispute on several issues, sadly tho it can only be disputed with equally subjective information from different sources.

Conclusions drawn too quickly from subjective information are subject to constant revision.

I don't think everything concerning Jake is quite laid to rest yet. I suspect this thread is going to carry on for quite a while as each subjective issue is examined and debated from every angle.

I'll toss out the first ball here - A slight variation in Jake's name and the name of the President of the Continental Club is not surprising. Jake was well known for using variations of his own name on purpose. There are still people around that insist Jake told them his First name was Jacob, concluding from that, that his last name was Roberts.

I am impressed that you found the name of the President of the Continental Club to be Robert Jacobs no matter what the middle name was.

Ball two - We know that some of Ruth's files went to the Smithsonian to be sealed for "X" amount of years. Jake never claimed to have ALL of Ruth's files, he was only interested in the ones pertaining to Az.

Ball three - I know better than to ask you directly how you conclude that none of Ruth's files pertained to Peter's Mesa, but that conclusion will probably be the biggest debate of them all.

You got something going her Gene that I believe is going to last a Long Long Time!

It's going to take more than 48 hours to unravel the last 40 years of Jake's life, if it can be done at all.

redison
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More Jake

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

Lot's of information on "the Jake".

"Ball two - We know that some of Ruth's files went to the Smithsonian to be sealed for "X" amount of years. Jake never claimed to have ALL of Ruth's files, he was only interested in the ones pertaining to Az."

The time period was "25 years".

Gene Reynolds wrote in "Borrego 13": "To me that meant only one thing; That Adolph Ruth's maps pertaining to the Superstitions and received from the Peralta family of Mexico, were not there in the Smithsonian!"

Gene gives the name and title of the man he wrote and talked to at the Smithsonian. There was no box from the Ruth family in their possession.

The only mention that Jake made of Adolph Ruth's papers, can be found in a chapter named "THE RUTH NOTES".

That chapter starts like this: "These are the missing Ruth Notes, how I came by them still remains a secret, and must remain so, but they are definately the missing notes out of Adolph Ruth's notebook.They had been very carefully compsed into the form of a letter so unless you knew just what you were looking at, you couldn't make head nor tail of them.
The man that took them off of Doctor Ruth sent them back here to Arizona in the same manner that Adolph Ruth had carried them in. He sent them back to the man that had been the eye witness of the murder in the hope that he could figure them out."

Jake then types a copy of the letter. It is from "Fairbanks, Alaska" and is dated "February 6, 1932". There is no mention of his having been in Washington, D.C., or receiving any information from Irwin Ruth, that I can remember. Perhaps someone can quote something different from another source.

I assume these were not the documents being discussed here.

Respectfully,

Joe
Gene Reynolds
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Questions

Post by Gene Reynolds »

Just a quick minute before bed---------\

Ball two - We know that some of Ruth's files went to the Smithsonian to be sealed for "X" amount of years. Jake never claimed to have ALL of Ruth's files, he was only interested in the ones pertaining to Az.

Jeanne M. Benas
Registrar of the Smithsonian
202-633-3880

Phil Leslie was the registrar at the time I was there in Washington - by the way - that's second in command of the Smithsonian He was a personal friend and help me a great deal and also checked for me everything in regards to Ruth - and I mean everything - No records will ever willed to them - that was a fabrication of Glenns to give Erwin some privacy from people that might hound him. Eleanor Clark has all the files - all you have to do is find her! If you want to check for yourself I made it easy for you - there's the number and the man to speak to.

Ball three - I know better than to ask you directly how you conclude that none of Ruth's files pertained to Peter's Mesa, but that conclusion will probably be the biggest debate of them all.

I would love to tell you the answer to that question - but i can't because it also pertains to others that are involved presently in more research. sorry - but I will have to leave that one alone for now.

and no. 1

I'll toss out the first ball here - A slight variation in Jake's name and the name of the President of the Continental Club is not surprising. Jake was well known for using variations of his own name on purpose. There are still people around that insist Jake told them his First name was Jacob, concluding from that, that his last name was Roberts.

I wonder in Crazy Jake looks like the guy as well - the past President was a little older than Jake and his picture looks nothing like him.

I think I have answered all 3 questions for now and I'm sure you'll no doubt have some I probably can't answer. I am not interested on doing a story on Crazy Jakes life. I was merely interested in finding out if there was a remote chance he may have either met Ruth or had any of his files - I found enough answers in that direction to satisfy myself and perhaps a few others.

As for Jake is concerned - I found out much more about the man then what I wanted to. I will say - he led an interesting life and full of adventure.

49er - I do have a question for you. In you research on the Peralta Operations did you ever come across a mention of a Martin H. Martin was a German mining specialist who worked in the Arizona/Nevada area.

Sorry - Never

and now - Conclusions drawn too quickly from subjective information are subject to constant revision

You are so right redison - but you know the good thing about conjecture - We are all grown ups here and are all intelligent - that means that we can all work together and find the answers. if we hit a dead end - there will be another day that the sun will come out and we can all try again.

I have found what I wanted to know pertaining to this and am totally satisfied - I don't care wether Jake used his right hand to write with or his left - I am satisfied with what I found..... I even gave you all a phone no. and name - if you don't feel I did it well enough - the number is here in front of you on at least one issue.

It's the old story - you can find the mine and it could be the Dutchman - but someone will always swear that it's somewhere else.

All you or I or anyone can do is their best - once you are certain you have done your best - and if there is nothing left to improve on - then what else could you want. Someone can always make a better engine - and a lot have -

Now I am finally going to bed......... nearly 3:00 AM - Good night - God Bless you all - and drink plenty of water...... it may not be good for you - but it hasn't killed the dog yet!!!

Gene Reynolds
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bill711
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Gold in the Sup,s

Post by bill711 »

AMEN TO ALL; This forum fighting is dragging it down into the cesspool. Let,s all pretend that we are MATURE and MEN and stop it right now.. or I am quiting too. :twisted: bill 8)
LDM
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Robert Jacob (Crazy Jake)

Post by LDM »

Deleted.
Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
redison
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Ball 1 - 2 - 3

Post by redison »

Great responses Gene!

I don't have any information strong enough (subjective or otherwise) to carry on a dispute of any item. Like I said earlier, #3 "On top of it all - if Jake has Ruths files = he would never have been searching in Peter's Mesa......not even close.!!! " ball 3 I called it, is probably the most important of all, but without any supporting evidence, it is like the single most important piece of evidence in a Lawyer's case that the Judge tosses out and will not allow to be entered into evidence because it just won't stand on it's own. There's too much circumstantial evidence surrounding it that leans toward another conclusion.






LDM,

That's a very interesting bit of information about Jakes heart attack at the Big Boy in AJ. It clears up a misunderstanding I have had with a couple of people several times in the past.

I wonder if that could also be the answer to the story going around about Jake having "Faked" his death at least once before he actually died?

re: was Jake Crazy?

I personally do not think so based on my own personal experiences with him. Did he encourage to people to believe he was? ABSOLUTELY! In his own words:

"If people think you are an Ass Hole, they will go out of their way to "F" with you. If they think you are Crazy they will go out of their way to avoid you".

He was not crazy, nor was he stupid. Con man? I can't argue with that. Obsessed? I can't argue with that either. Dangerous? I really don't think so, tho he truly tried to project that image of himself to outsiders.

redison
Joe Ribaudo
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Jake's Death

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

LDM,

Sounds like those who were a little closer to Jake knew the true story of his death, while those who got their information from a newspaper article,
may only have known part of the story.

Like I said, Jake was bedridden one week before his death. Don't think he was dining at Denny's or Bob's Big Boy. I could be wrong, because I was not there, but I will take the word of someone who was there that week.

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Crazy?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

While Jake was never certifiably "crazy", as redision mentions, he did like to portray that image. You might wonder just how sane someone is who does what Jake did to children. No doubt he was just misunderstood.

Was he dangerous? We have been told, sorta, that he killed or had killed the person he believed had murdered Adolph Ruth. If that is more than just a story, I would say that would hint that he was crazy and dangerous.

It would be interesting if someone who really knew Jake, would tell us what he believed concerning the Stone Maps and the cave of gold bars.
Not what someone else told them he believed, but what Jake personally told them.

There are a number of people on this forum who actually knew Jake, redison being one. I don't know how many of them would admiit that they were actually friends with Jake, but more than a few spoke with the man, at length.

Obie Stoker, my mom's uncle and Chuck Ribaudo, my uncle, both knew Jake. Neither had a kind word for the man, and both warned me to stay away from his area of interest. Once Obie broke away from Jake he would not go near the man. Chuck went where he pleased and feared no man.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
late49er
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Peralta`s

Post by late49er »

Mr. Reynolds,

Thank you for your prompt reply to my inquiry. Martin was involved with the Peralta`s starting in the 1840`s. Wasn`t sure if I could find any other reference to him but one can only hope.

Joe,

Really I don`t know enough about the current history of the LDM to comment on the validity of the Peralta letter. Will say I did enjoy reading the letter and the description seems fair in terms of the appearance of one of the Peralta mines and its surrounding country.

One thing I am convinced of is there is really more than one LDM out there. Seems to me you have a gold deposit spread over some distance that has several surface manifistations. Add this to the fact there are perhaps multiple gold deposits in the Superstitutions, some related and some not it is no wonder that one reads of so many different looks.

Perhaps the LDM is simply one manifestation of a larger system that folks have been stumbling on to for a long time. The Peralta`s, the Apache`s and modern prospectors. The Peralta`s worked what they could, the Apache`s covered up what they could. And perhaps the Peralta`s built backdoors into their major operations. Backdoors the Apache`s for the most part didn`t find.

But then again it seems somewhat clear the Apache`s have zeroed in on a number of locations.

Regards,

Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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Correct, As Usual

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

I believe you are correct, as usual. One only needs to look at the belt of mines that run from the northwest to the southeast, broken only by the Superstition Range, to suspect the truth.

While many people have written of the Apache connection to gold, it is not a subject that enjoys universal favor, especially here. Not discussing the subject will not make it go away. There will always be someone seeking the truth.

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bill711
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Parelta letter

Post by bill711 »

LDM; I think you guessed what I have thought from the first! There are too many different stories of too many finds, The only thing that makes sense is that there is more than one outcropping of ore. 1st is we have some finding a mine with a tunnal. 2nd is we have a find of a LEDGE of gold ore! The mine of the jakes was just described as a small pit with a tunnal started below it. The Jake said he covered it over by himself, if he did it couldn,t have been very big. I think that this mine was a new find OR the tunnal would have been completed? He said his pardner was working it by HIMSELF while he was gone? The others who had gold ore just described a ledge where they took some gold from. There are OLD filled in mines all over the sup,s so there had to be other ore outcroppings for this tobe so. Hell even a mexi.wouldn,t dig unless he he had some pay coming from the ground. ALSO the old mexican miners beleived that if you scarred mother earth you had to refill the holes when you were thru. This made her well again... Supperstition? Bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
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"Can You Tell Me Where He's Gone?"

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

"I do have a question for you. In you research on the Peralta Operations did you ever come across a mention of a Martin H. Martin was a German mining specialist who worked in the Arizona/Nevada area."

Interesting question. Can you give us a few hints? How about time period?

I believe, some time in the early 90s, Dr. Glover worked with a mineralogist named "Martin". He did not provide any last name, or perhaps Martin was his last name.

Respectfully,

Joe
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skeelos
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Re: The Crazy Jake Truth

Post by skeelos »

Gene,

You get more done in 2 days than I get done in 2 months, glad to see your posts.

All,

I have to admit that I’m still a bit confused. Aside from whether or not Crazy Jake had Ruth’s files, I’m trying to sort out these two conflicting accounts regarding Erwin Ruth, both relayed by Gene.

Gene Reynolds:
On Thu Jul 28, 2005
I know Glenn Magil opened a can of worms with Erwin and Erwin was only to happy to talk to him on many occasions...What bothered me for a long time was the fact that Glenn said Erwin told him (for whatever the reason) that " Dad's files are all packed up and on the back porch"! It may have been at a time Erwin was unhealthy and fading. Glenn said - Erwin said that "the stuff" was to be picked up by the Lincoln Continental Club...
On Sat Jul 30, 2005
Crazy Jake never new Adolph or Erwin because Erwins files were still intact in 1966 - long after Crazy Jake got to Arizona.. Erwin was quoted as saying to a friend " I wouldn't sell these files even for a new car." I wouldn't take the time to gather them together”.
So will the real Erwin please stand up? The Erwin that said the stuff is packed to be picked up, or the Erwin that said he wouldn’t sell the papers even for a new car?



Joe,
Are you a fan of Gyros?
Ah Joe, you’re mean. I’d take a gyro over a steak any day, unfortunately where I live now the nearest place to get one is about a 2 hour drive. :( Best gyros I ever had were from a restaurant run by a Lebanese and an immigrant Russian on the ground floor of The Lumber Exchange in of all places Minneapolis.

Also, I’m definitely a numbers person.



Wiz,
It might take us back to the Salazar Survey
Thanks. That certainly sounds like something I’d like to look into. Don’t know anything about the Salazar Survey (yet), or if I did I’ve already forgotten, but that’s enough to get me interested. Trouble is that I’m still only about half way through Glover’s first book, I just don’t have the time to devote to the LDM as I’d like.
Most of the world's problems are caused by people who take themselves too seriously.
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Salazar Survey.

Post by Wiz »

Skeelos,

The whole story is in one of the SMHS journals. I can't remember which one off the top of my head.
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Salazar Survey

Post by S.C. »

One of the more interesting stories related to the Superstition Mountains is that of Perfecto Salazar and his involvement with a gentleman by the name of Cristobal Peralta. In 1924 Cristobal Peralta came to Arizona from Spain to supposedly look into a few legal issues related to his family. Though he journeyed from Spain, Peralta was born and raised in Mexico. After some preliminary research in Mexico and Arizona, Peralta connected with Salazar. Peralta needed Salazar’s assistance as an interpreter and guide in various issues related to Peralta’s investigation. Salazar soon discovered Peralta was interested in the validity of a supposed old family land grant and various related mining endeavors. In the course of their discussions Salazar was made privy to various items in Peralta’s possession. There were photographic plates, a map, and instructions that related to a mine believed to be in the Superstition Mountains. However, when it was all said and done, nothing seemed to come of Peralta’s research and efforts in establishing the validity of the supposed grant. Thus, Peralta returned to Spain taking his map and photographic plates with him. However, Salazar remembered much of the details and later tried to locate the mine. Unfortunately, he had no success.

An early reference to Salazar can be found in the manuscript of Jim Bark. Bark met Salazar in 1930 and was told of Salazar’s involvement with Cristobal Peralta. While Bark does not mention Salazar by name in the text, the chapter with his story was entitled “Salazar.” Bark’s manuscript essentially confirms the information Salazar later related to a man named Frank Swento.

It was years after Salazar’s involvement with Cristobal Peralta that he met Frank Swento. Salazar told Swento of Cristobal Peralta and the supposed mine in the Superstitions, including details of Peralta’s map. This peaked Swento’s interest and soon Swento was actively seeking help in tracking down the Peralta mine based on the information he obtained from Salazar. Thus, in 1948 Swento met up with Chuck Aylor and Clay Worst. During the years 1948 and 1949 Swento worked with Aylor and Worst in order to explore the potential of the information obtained from Salazar. The details of Cristobal Peralta, Salazar, and Swento – and the involvement of Aylor and Worst - are recounted in an article written by Clay Worst that appears in the 1984 issue of the “Superstition Mountain Journal.”

Based on the information Swento obtained from Salazar about Cristobal Peralta’s map, the group formulated a theory about the nature of the map and what it portrayed. They felt that there was enough merit in the information provided that there might be some validity to the map. Thus, they brought in surveying equipment to locate a position based on their interpretation of the details on the map remembered by Salazar. Their efforts along these lines have come to be called the Salazar Survey. Unfortunately, despite all their work surveying landmarks and using early metal detectors nothing materialized based on their particular deductions.
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Post by TGH »

SC

Interesting that the "Salazar Survey" involves locating some working in the Red Hills country...yet the photographs (daguerro-types actually) seem to indicate an area that would seem to be higher up and further away.......

P
S.C.
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Plates versus Survey

Post by S.C. »

Yes.... That is true.

But, that was Aylor and Worst's interpretation of the data. That being the "X" at the end of the survey was a spot in the Three Red Hills area. The ones by Marsh Valley.

Perhaps if the data was reworked a different way it might point to a different place.
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Post by TGH »

Perhaps the original map or directions were too "correct and mathematical"?

Angles anyone?

lol
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The Lost Magill

Post by Gene Reynolds »

Ah skeelos - you would make me expain this mess................

OK - here goes ---------

I cannot for the life of me tell you for sure why Glenn said Erwin told him the files were all packed up and on the Porch awaiting pick-up. If I knew that answer positively, I would be a mind reader. I can only only guess that Glenn was trying to protect Erwins privacy from everyone hounding him for the files. If I told you I knew exactly where the Dutchman's mine was - I would have all kinds of misfits knocking on my door in the middle of the night. I think the story was made up to protect Erwin. = Make sense?

After my 3 trips to Washington and to Stellas home - I then on the third visit met Eleanor of whom I had no idea even existed until then. It was on this visit that I learned that Eleanor had taken all the files with her some time after Erwin had passed. Stella made the remark to me (on the side) my niece comes into my home and just takes anything she wants to without asking me, and she made a few more comments that we won't go into (use your imagination). This was around 1970 or so.

Next case- Erwin was quoted as saying to a friend " I wouldn't sell these files even for a new car." I wouldn't take the time to gather them together”. The person he told this to (and can be verified by Greg Davis) was Richard Peck. That was in 1966. Therefore - the files were taken by Eleanor between 1966 and 1970..... Crazy Jake had been in Arizona at least 5 years at that time (1966) and as much as 1970 which is 9 years after the fact....... That's why I said Jake could never have taken them at any time because that were at Erwins house and in tact until 1966 and then went straight to Eleanors after that. They were never missing the whole time. Just as the Peralta Book I found in the house - it was still there when I went so apparently - Eleanor didn't get everything. Jake never even spoke about Ruth until he had been in Arizona for many years. Therefore - It was just another one of Jakes scams in the making.

Don't misunderstand my feeling about Jake though - I have none either way. I never met the man! I am just reporting what I researched. Like FOX - I report - you decide!

I still have information coming in from all over the country on Erwin and even Jake............ As I already said - the Lincoln Continental Club of Washington is now Defunct! However, I spoke to a man a couple of hours ago that is in his 80's and met Erwin and knew him. He even informed me that Erwin has passed away..! He was so delightful I didn't have the heart to tell him that I new more about Erwin than his own father probably did. He told me he gave Erwin a trophy a long time ago that for some reason he still has himself. After our converstion went on for some time - he broke in and said - I know where there's an old Lincoln of Erwins - maybe I should get it - I only have 10 left now you know!!! = And his name is Bernie Wolfson - Founder of the Lincoln Continental Club - But I forgot which one! By the way - he never heard of anyone named Bob Jacobs or Jacob Bob and anything close - and he lives just outside of Washington.

The President of that club and has been for over 30 years is Roger Bentley of whom I spoke to earlier today as well . .. He never heard of him either and he is the now President of the Lincoln Continental Club which covers 4 states including Washington. The old Club is Defunct!

I hope this answers all your questions - ( but I just know it doesn't and you will find more) and that's not all bad - it fact - that's what this forum is here for.......... but give me about a month vacation first please. or - better still find the Damn Peralta Book - if you really want a job of investigation. Look at the past posts - she is not impossible to find just a little difficult. If all of you work as hard on one thing together - I would give it 3 months and you will have not only her found but with the proper approach the book and the mine found.!!!

Think about it - you have a chance of a lifetime here and for 3 months I have not seen a thing accomplished towards even trying to find her. She can be found - she is not a ghost!

Good Luck to you all........

Gene Reynolds
Writer of Borrego 13
Joe Ribaudo
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Sources

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

It would seem that Gene has some pretty good sources, while the rest of us have some pretty good stories. :)

A few people here knew Jake, and some of their stories came directly from him. What might be interesting to know, is how many of those stories were told, prior to 1971.

Nice bit of work, Gene.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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