OK, Peter keeps hinting around about this so we may as well drag it out.
Here's an idea just to kick things off:
The LDM isn't a mine at all, but a cache that is being moved periodically by the Apaches/Jesuits/Evil Ranchers/Peraltas/Aliens.
Who's next?
Why hasn't the LDM been found?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Cache?
Wiz,
The Waltz evidence points to ore as opposed to treasure. I suggested in an earlier topic, that he may have found the massacre site when there was a lot more ore laying around, and hid it in the mountains. He may have used the mine story in fear that someone might claim ownership to the found ore. That could also explaine the extreme richness of the ore he possessed. Most of the forum found little credibility in this theory. You are suggesting something a little different. You think it is possible that Waltz found a cache rather then a mine. That would also offer a good reason for Waltz to keep the find seceret. Who knows when the rightfull owners might show up.
Good question!
Joe
The Waltz evidence points to ore as opposed to treasure. I suggested in an earlier topic, that he may have found the massacre site when there was a lot more ore laying around, and hid it in the mountains. He may have used the mine story in fear that someone might claim ownership to the found ore. That could also explaine the extreme richness of the ore he possessed. Most of the forum found little credibility in this theory. You are suggesting something a little different. You think it is possible that Waltz found a cache rather then a mine. That would also offer a good reason for Waltz to keep the find seceret. Who knows when the rightfull owners might show up.
Good question!
Joe
Joe,
My suggestion was a bit flip, but the cache/mine question comes round to whether you believe the accounts of Waltz being gone for days or for weeks before coming back with his ore. Also, the gold he had may have been the concentrates from a larger, but poorer deposit than is generally attributed to the LDM. Or several deposits. All we have is the analysis of a couple of chunks of ore; there's no proof (that I know of) that all the ore Waltz had was from the same source.
Thirsty rang a loud bell when he asked how the mine was found in the first place, when no one else has been able to find it. It's a very good question, which I also have wondered. Maybe there's no mine at all, in the sense of the LDM people have in their minds.
I'm just thinking out loud, this isn't my actual take on things. I don't really have a take yet, I'm still deciding. But, a cache would explain a lot, and one that is moved periodically is something to think about.
My suggestion was a bit flip, but the cache/mine question comes round to whether you believe the accounts of Waltz being gone for days or for weeks before coming back with his ore. Also, the gold he had may have been the concentrates from a larger, but poorer deposit than is generally attributed to the LDM. Or several deposits. All we have is the analysis of a couple of chunks of ore; there's no proof (that I know of) that all the ore Waltz had was from the same source.
Thirsty rang a loud bell when he asked how the mine was found in the first place, when no one else has been able to find it. It's a very good question, which I also have wondered. Maybe there's no mine at all, in the sense of the LDM people have in their minds.
I'm just thinking out loud, this isn't my actual take on things. I don't really have a take yet, I'm still deciding. But, a cache would explain a lot, and one that is moved periodically is something to think about.
Wiz, I believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head as far as the cache vs mine argument go. It is clear to me now (though it wasnt always) that Waltz was most likely attempting to get Thomas and Petrasch
(and later Holmes) to his cache, not his mine. I could , of course be wrong here...but I dont think so. I cant really elaborate on how I came to the conclusion..lets just say that certain directions that I put some stock in seem to indicate a cache area and not a mine.
However, I also believe that Waltz worked a mine. A mine with all the classic LDM traits..it was high up, in an ungodly place,there were probably 2 shafts, there was a tunnel below (that Waltz did NOT work). The tunnel was especially worrisome to Waltz. Not because he feared a cave -in ...but because it stood like a beacon anouncing to those few who might wander into the area that here was evidence of mining. Couple this with the trail that lead past the tunnel entrance and Waltz must have had nightmares trying to think up ways to cover the tunnel and especially the trail.
The above, of course, has all the classic earmarks of the Waltz tale as handed down over the years. He did seem to be talking about both a mine and a cache. One doesnt have to be a quantum physiscist to figure out that he meant what he said...that he did do mining and that he cached the ore in the mountains. Did he expect Julia and Rhiney to become miners?
Probably not. It does make sense then to assume that he was giving them
instructions to his hidden cache(s).
The question posed by Wiz and Thirsty about the mine not being found for the past 117 years or so is a valid one. Was the last person to take ore from the mine area Joe Deering in 1885? John Reed in 1888? (if you put any credence in those tales) I do not know, of course. It does amaze that the LDM vanished off of the face of the earth since that time. There are stories about folks visiting the mine area later on. Senor Ballesteros ( I think it was he but might have been a Peralta..sorry cant find it in my papers) supposedly visited the mine site in 1895 and said the area was so broken up that he hardly recognized it (as a result of the '87 quake? 91 flood?). Bark and Ely also subscribed to the "earth changes" theory, as do several other searchers. Perhaps they are right...
But I beleive, only partially so.
(and later Holmes) to his cache, not his mine. I could , of course be wrong here...but I dont think so. I cant really elaborate on how I came to the conclusion..lets just say that certain directions that I put some stock in seem to indicate a cache area and not a mine.
However, I also believe that Waltz worked a mine. A mine with all the classic LDM traits..it was high up, in an ungodly place,there were probably 2 shafts, there was a tunnel below (that Waltz did NOT work). The tunnel was especially worrisome to Waltz. Not because he feared a cave -in ...but because it stood like a beacon anouncing to those few who might wander into the area that here was evidence of mining. Couple this with the trail that lead past the tunnel entrance and Waltz must have had nightmares trying to think up ways to cover the tunnel and especially the trail.
The above, of course, has all the classic earmarks of the Waltz tale as handed down over the years. He did seem to be talking about both a mine and a cache. One doesnt have to be a quantum physiscist to figure out that he meant what he said...that he did do mining and that he cached the ore in the mountains. Did he expect Julia and Rhiney to become miners?
Probably not. It does make sense then to assume that he was giving them
instructions to his hidden cache(s).
The question posed by Wiz and Thirsty about the mine not being found for the past 117 years or so is a valid one. Was the last person to take ore from the mine area Joe Deering in 1885? John Reed in 1888? (if you put any credence in those tales) I do not know, of course. It does amaze that the LDM vanished off of the face of the earth since that time. There are stories about folks visiting the mine area later on. Senor Ballesteros ( I think it was he but might have been a Peralta..sorry cant find it in my papers) supposedly visited the mine site in 1895 and said the area was so broken up that he hardly recognized it (as a result of the '87 quake? 91 flood?). Bark and Ely also subscribed to the "earth changes" theory, as do several other searchers. Perhaps they are right...
But I beleive, only partially so.
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Joe Ribaudo
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How did they know?
Peter and Wiz,
Great start on what I hope will be a long and prosperous topic. This particular formation would have left a trail which would not have been hard to follow, in those days. Why can't we find that same trail? Once the outcroping was mined to below the surface, the evidence over the years would have found bedrock. Cover the mine and tunnel, and you have a real needle in a haystack. Back that up with conflicting stories and manufactured evidence and it just might get tougher.
Waltz told Julia, specifically, that they were going in to retrieve the cache. He is also said to have acknowledged that they would not be able to work the mine. No mystery there. We have some fairly reliable evidence that he told them that you couldn't find one without finding the other. This seems fairly plain and has always been accepted as true. Since he also described a mine and a cache, I think we are safe in assuming that both are in the same place or area, and not being moved from one location to another. If you are going to move it at all, you would take it out of the mountains altogether, as it would be safer buried in your back yard. Not many Dutch Hunter would be looking for it there, unless the back yard happened to belonged to Peter.
Wow, my memory isn't completly shot yet, unless that play of words did not come from Peter. 
Joe Ribaudo
Great start on what I hope will be a long and prosperous topic. This particular formation would have left a trail which would not have been hard to follow, in those days. Why can't we find that same trail? Once the outcroping was mined to below the surface, the evidence over the years would have found bedrock. Cover the mine and tunnel, and you have a real needle in a haystack. Back that up with conflicting stories and manufactured evidence and it just might get tougher.
Waltz told Julia, specifically, that they were going in to retrieve the cache. He is also said to have acknowledged that they would not be able to work the mine. No mystery there. We have some fairly reliable evidence that he told them that you couldn't find one without finding the other. This seems fairly plain and has always been accepted as true. Since he also described a mine and a cache, I think we are safe in assuming that both are in the same place or area, and not being moved from one location to another. If you are going to move it at all, you would take it out of the mountains altogether, as it would be safer buried in your back yard. Not many Dutch Hunter would be looking for it there, unless the back yard happened to belonged to Peter.
Wow, my memory isn't completly shot yet, unless that play of words did not come from Peter. Joe Ribaudo
What mine?
The gold ore that was brought out of LDM was likely not mined in the those mountains.The gold was a portion of a cache that was hidden there.
The gold was hidden by Indians who aquired it by taking it from miners returning South.After years of stockpiling high grade ore the cache became to large for the original hidding spot.The hidden ore could have been found out by several means.Some one watched the movement to a larger stash.The Men would be standing guard as Women,and the young moved this ore.Anyone watching this would hunker down and stay quite a distance back.They then could watch for days as the work progressed and be able to pinpoint the new stash point.The Indians would carve/mark cactus with markers to indicate trails, caches and areas to meet or camp.A person could retrace this organic map for miles.The last large cactus map went down over 30 yrs ago.The smaller branch markers would last less than a year.A determined tracker could easily follow this activity and locate the cacheWho ever saw this activity waited until summer to remove a portion of the cache and rebury it . I would suggest that this cache is buried in a place that no mine should exist.A gravel bank . Easy to dig and rehide. If it was flooded the ore would just sink deeper into the gravels.I have seen gravels that havent seen water in 20 yrs. The Indians noting their cache having been found removed and hid it again.Thats why the "mine" has never been found. The gold was taken from those who had to pass thru.
The gold was hidden by Indians who aquired it by taking it from miners returning South.After years of stockpiling high grade ore the cache became to large for the original hidding spot.The hidden ore could have been found out by several means.Some one watched the movement to a larger stash.The Men would be standing guard as Women,and the young moved this ore.Anyone watching this would hunker down and stay quite a distance back.They then could watch for days as the work progressed and be able to pinpoint the new stash point.The Indians would carve/mark cactus with markers to indicate trails, caches and areas to meet or camp.A person could retrace this organic map for miles.The last large cactus map went down over 30 yrs ago.The smaller branch markers would last less than a year.A determined tracker could easily follow this activity and locate the cacheWho ever saw this activity waited until summer to remove a portion of the cache and rebury it . I would suggest that this cache is buried in a place that no mine should exist.A gravel bank . Easy to dig and rehide. If it was flooded the ore would just sink deeper into the gravels.I have seen gravels that havent seen water in 20 yrs. The Indians noting their cache having been found removed and hid it again.Thats why the "mine" has never been found. The gold was taken from those who had to pass thru.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Apache Gold?
Scott,
That is a very interesting story. It does, however, fly in the face of every known fact concerning the Apache and there relationship with gold. There may be a little resistance to this theory from some members of the forum. As detailed as it was, can we assume that you received this information from someone who has seen all of this activity? It would need to be someone with impeccable credentials.... and pictures.
I do like your style.
Joe Ribaudo
That is a very interesting story. It does, however, fly in the face of every known fact concerning the Apache and there relationship with gold. There may be a little resistance to this theory from some members of the forum. As detailed as it was, can we assume that you received this information from someone who has seen all of this activity? It would need to be someone with impeccable credentials.... and pictures.
I do like your style.
Joe Ribaudo
I think that there are two very plausible reasons why the LDM has not been found, and there is one very good question as to why it wasn’t found in the 1875 to 1885 time period. First, I think one of the reasons that it has not been found is that almost every searcher does not know exactly what he is looking for. I mean when you go searching for the LDM and/or the caches just exactly what are you physically looking for? A house in a cave? An old trail? A walled up tunnel? What? I’ve hunted the Dutchman and hiked those mountains on and off for near 20 years and I’ve known a lot of Dutch Hunters. Some where looking for a cache, some a mine, some both; but; when it got right down to it many did not actually know just what they expected to see physically. There are a couple of ways around this, but not for here.
Reason two is that not many who have looked are prospectors, and by this I mean real prospectors as opposed to people who prospect for gold. The way a genuine prospector reads the ground is totally different than the way others (including geologists) read the ground.
Now for the question of why the mine was not found in the 1875-1885 time period. Most people forget that with the discovery of the Silver King, the Two Soldiers Story and the first mining claims (late-1870s) along the southern edge of the Superstitions the Superstitions were inundated with people. True probably more in the Eastern Superstitions, but a whole lot in the Western Superstitions. Milton Rose used to say several thousand people tramped those mountains in those ten years. Given what has happened around areas where other very rich mines were discovered it is a pretty good guess that that is true. So why back when trails were fresh was not more found? After all, Deering said he simply followed an old trail.
Reason two is that not many who have looked are prospectors, and by this I mean real prospectors as opposed to people who prospect for gold. The way a genuine prospector reads the ground is totally different than the way others (including geologists) read the ground.
Now for the question of why the mine was not found in the 1875-1885 time period. Most people forget that with the discovery of the Silver King, the Two Soldiers Story and the first mining claims (late-1870s) along the southern edge of the Superstitions the Superstitions were inundated with people. True probably more in the Eastern Superstitions, but a whole lot in the Western Superstitions. Milton Rose used to say several thousand people tramped those mountains in those ten years. Given what has happened around areas where other very rich mines were discovered it is a pretty good guess that that is true. So why back when trails were fresh was not more found? After all, Deering said he simply followed an old trail.
Joe, The Indians thru generations learned the value the miners and others placed on the gold and ores.They also knew the hardships that these Men caused the Indians.The Indians took the gold to prove to the strangers/miners that it is not worth the trouble to mine.And perhaps the miners will go else where to live.The living was hard already and the miners were using resources/game faster than it could be regenerated.
The Indians had no need for the gold at that time.But they did know that the miners put a very high value to it.These ideas were passed to missionary workers and visitors to the San Carlos Reservation in the late 40's early 50's and are being told second or third hand.Some Indians were brought out to the areas and passed along the knowlege of the markers and stories of the price mines paid to get safely home.
The Indians had no need for the gold at that time.But they did know that the miners put a very high value to it.These ideas were passed to missionary workers and visitors to the San Carlos Reservation in the late 40's early 50's and are being told second or third hand.Some Indians were brought out to the areas and passed along the knowlege of the markers and stories of the price mines paid to get safely home.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Reasonable Explanations
Scott, Wiz and Rosebud,
What you have all said makes perfect since and sounds logical. I may disagree with a few points, but on the whole you have presented plausible theories.
Rosebud,
I believe that the place you are searching is more important then the thing you are looking for. If you have picked the wrong area for your search for the mine or............
I know that sounds very simplistic, but the entire Superstition Range and more then a few places outside the area have been searched for years and still are to this day.
I came to the conclusion many years ago, that considering the intelligence, knowledge and experience of the people who had failed to find whatever they were searching for, I would stand no possible chance to find what I was looking for by following in their footsteps. I believe there was no man in the history of this search, that had more intelligence or ability then my Uncle Chuck. I would find nothing by following (directly) his trail. It is also more then a little possible, that many if not all of the accepted experts on this subject have led us down false trails, purposely or in complete innocence. I believe the answer to this puzzle is
to be found in the first few years after the death of Jacob Waltz. Most, but not all, of the information that followed may have led us away, rather then closer to that remote location. When we search that steep ravine this year, I expect the surrounding area to give me the information that will lead to the exact spot on the ground that we are all seeking.
I know I sound like a blowhard, but I did not join this group to have them confirm the location I am searching. I am always looking for holes in my information or rebuttals to the theories that brought us to this location. If they come, I will have no problem acknowledging them publicly.
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
What you have all said makes perfect since and sounds logical. I may disagree with a few points, but on the whole you have presented plausible theories.
Rosebud,
I believe that the place you are searching is more important then the thing you are looking for. If you have picked the wrong area for your search for the mine or............
I know that sounds very simplistic, but the entire Superstition Range and more then a few places outside the area have been searched for years and still are to this day.
I came to the conclusion many years ago, that considering the intelligence, knowledge and experience of the people who had failed to find whatever they were searching for, I would stand no possible chance to find what I was looking for by following in their footsteps. I believe there was no man in the history of this search, that had more intelligence or ability then my Uncle Chuck. I would find nothing by following (directly) his trail. It is also more then a little possible, that many if not all of the accepted experts on this subject have led us down false trails, purposely or in complete innocence. I believe the answer to this puzzle is
to be found in the first few years after the death of Jacob Waltz. Most, but not all, of the information that followed may have led us away, rather then closer to that remote location. When we search that steep ravine this year, I expect the surrounding area to give me the information that will lead to the exact spot on the ground that we are all seeking.
I know I sound like a blowhard, but I did not join this group to have them confirm the location I am searching. I am always looking for holes in my information or rebuttals to the theories that brought us to this location. If they come, I will have no problem acknowledging them publicly.
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
I have a close friend who told me the following. (not an exact quote)
"The problem that we all have today is sorting out what's Mexican, what's Spanish, what's Apache and what's Anglo. The puzzle is like a big ball of tangled twine...that we try to untangle...but by doing so end up becoming even more ensnared in its twiny web."
I tend to agree with him.
About the Apache burying gold:
To the Apache "besh thlitzo" (literally- yellow metal- gold) was sacred to God (Ussn). They never bothered with it and over the years (as Scott said) realized that the gold was valuable to the Spanish and Anglos. There are anecdotal accounts of Apache burying treasure that they took on raids throughout the Southwest and Northern Mexico. It must be noted that traditionalist Apache that followed the old ways and old religion would not use Ussn's metal under any circumstance..not even to buy or trade for ammunition when they were in dire staits. Silver (besh likai-white metal) was not taboo and they readily sold silver for rifles and bullets. A great Chiricahua chief...Nana (pronounced na-Nay) was said to have been instrumental
in caching both gold and silver taken in raids in northern Mexico and southern AZ. Nana was also said to have "power" over ammunition and could always find it when he had need. I have often wondered if he derived this particular power from his ability to simply dig up a hidden silver cache and trade in the silver for ammo.
Another anecdote about Apache burying gold is nearer and dearer to the Dutch Hunters heart. Did the Peralta Fight in the mid-1860s result in the Apache just dumping the ore on the ground and keeping the sacks...like the legend goes? Or did the Apache attempt to cache the ore somewhere in the Superstitions? I think most of the Apache involved in the Peralta Fight would have been happy enough to just leave the ore lay...some, however, may have felt that it would have been better to return the ore to Ussn. Who can say?
Anyone who is at all familiar with the history of the Apache Wars knows that the Apache, particuarlly Goyathla's band, spent a great deal of time building and resupplying cache sites throughout the Southwest. They cached all thier needs...amunition, weapons, water, food, blankets and what was most important (beleive it or not) soles for their mocassins (which as a rule would wear out every 4 days or so). They were experts
at hiding caches and it would not surprise me if there were unfound caches yet in the Southwest from the old days.
One more thing about the Apache. Most Whites tend to look at an Apache and think all of them hold the same values an traditions. Nothing can be further from the truth. (Some Apache look at Whites in the same manner...by the way...and they too are wrong). There was,even in Goyathla's time, Apache and then there was APACHE. To this day some still hold to the old traditions....though sadly the vast majority do not.
That's progress I suppose.
Is the LDM an Apache Cache?
In my opinion the answer is a resounding no. There is simply too much evidence (historical and anecdotal) pointing to a mine. Waltz, Pipps, Deering, the Soldiers, Reed, Edwards, Green ALL spoke about a mine, a tunnel and shafts above. Having some small knowledge of Apache culture I can say with some certainty that they werent digging any shafts or tunnels to hide a cache. They would simply find a cave, crack or fissure in an out of the way place and locate the cache there. I find it much more likely that part of the LDM story as we know it involved a cache...but a cache that belonged to Waltz..not the Apache.
Why wasn't the LDM found 1875-1885?
I believe that Waltz found the LDM several years earlier than is generally supposed. Most place the finding of the mine by Waltz in the 1873-75 time frame. I think it was at least 5 years earlier, and that by the time 73-75 rolled around Waltz had already done the bulk of his mining work and he was now more concerned with covering his tracks, building up his cache and concealing the mine. If the Soldiers stumbled upon the tunnel in '84 and Deering did the same in '85 it would indicate to me Waltz did not do a very good job covering up the place in the '70s. Both Deering and the soldiers describe a tunnel that had "settled" and shafts that were "pretty well filled in." This would indicate to me that there had been an attempt to cover both the shafts and the tunnel..but whoever did it did not do a very good job. Perhaps it was covered perfectly for a number of years but as time passed natural forces caused it to become visible.
Could it be that news of the Soldiers an Deering reached Waltz in the mid-80s and caused him to visit the area once more....this time covering up the mine area for good? I do not know for sure, but in theory, it does seem to connect the dots.
And you do touch upon the poignant: many searchers havent the faintest idea about what they are looking for. A cave? A mine? A tunnel? A hidden cache? To make matters worse the clues have been jumbled, scrambled, sliced and diced where tody we dont know if "cache" really meant mine, "cave" meant tunnel or "shaft" meant crack.
OK. My fingers hurt from typing. Later.
P
"The problem that we all have today is sorting out what's Mexican, what's Spanish, what's Apache and what's Anglo. The puzzle is like a big ball of tangled twine...that we try to untangle...but by doing so end up becoming even more ensnared in its twiny web."
I tend to agree with him.
About the Apache burying gold:
To the Apache "besh thlitzo" (literally- yellow metal- gold) was sacred to God (Ussn). They never bothered with it and over the years (as Scott said) realized that the gold was valuable to the Spanish and Anglos. There are anecdotal accounts of Apache burying treasure that they took on raids throughout the Southwest and Northern Mexico. It must be noted that traditionalist Apache that followed the old ways and old religion would not use Ussn's metal under any circumstance..not even to buy or trade for ammunition when they were in dire staits. Silver (besh likai-white metal) was not taboo and they readily sold silver for rifles and bullets. A great Chiricahua chief...Nana (pronounced na-Nay) was said to have been instrumental
in caching both gold and silver taken in raids in northern Mexico and southern AZ. Nana was also said to have "power" over ammunition and could always find it when he had need. I have often wondered if he derived this particular power from his ability to simply dig up a hidden silver cache and trade in the silver for ammo.
Another anecdote about Apache burying gold is nearer and dearer to the Dutch Hunters heart. Did the Peralta Fight in the mid-1860s result in the Apache just dumping the ore on the ground and keeping the sacks...like the legend goes? Or did the Apache attempt to cache the ore somewhere in the Superstitions? I think most of the Apache involved in the Peralta Fight would have been happy enough to just leave the ore lay...some, however, may have felt that it would have been better to return the ore to Ussn. Who can say?
Anyone who is at all familiar with the history of the Apache Wars knows that the Apache, particuarlly Goyathla's band, spent a great deal of time building and resupplying cache sites throughout the Southwest. They cached all thier needs...amunition, weapons, water, food, blankets and what was most important (beleive it or not) soles for their mocassins (which as a rule would wear out every 4 days or so). They were experts
at hiding caches and it would not surprise me if there were unfound caches yet in the Southwest from the old days.
One more thing about the Apache. Most Whites tend to look at an Apache and think all of them hold the same values an traditions. Nothing can be further from the truth. (Some Apache look at Whites in the same manner...by the way...and they too are wrong). There was,even in Goyathla's time, Apache and then there was APACHE. To this day some still hold to the old traditions....though sadly the vast majority do not.
That's progress I suppose.
Is the LDM an Apache Cache?
In my opinion the answer is a resounding no. There is simply too much evidence (historical and anecdotal) pointing to a mine. Waltz, Pipps, Deering, the Soldiers, Reed, Edwards, Green ALL spoke about a mine, a tunnel and shafts above. Having some small knowledge of Apache culture I can say with some certainty that they werent digging any shafts or tunnels to hide a cache. They would simply find a cave, crack or fissure in an out of the way place and locate the cache there. I find it much more likely that part of the LDM story as we know it involved a cache...but a cache that belonged to Waltz..not the Apache.
Why wasn't the LDM found 1875-1885?
I believe that Waltz found the LDM several years earlier than is generally supposed. Most place the finding of the mine by Waltz in the 1873-75 time frame. I think it was at least 5 years earlier, and that by the time 73-75 rolled around Waltz had already done the bulk of his mining work and he was now more concerned with covering his tracks, building up his cache and concealing the mine. If the Soldiers stumbled upon the tunnel in '84 and Deering did the same in '85 it would indicate to me Waltz did not do a very good job covering up the place in the '70s. Both Deering and the soldiers describe a tunnel that had "settled" and shafts that were "pretty well filled in." This would indicate to me that there had been an attempt to cover both the shafts and the tunnel..but whoever did it did not do a very good job. Perhaps it was covered perfectly for a number of years but as time passed natural forces caused it to become visible.
Could it be that news of the Soldiers an Deering reached Waltz in the mid-80s and caused him to visit the area once more....this time covering up the mine area for good? I do not know for sure, but in theory, it does seem to connect the dots.
And you do touch upon the poignant: many searchers havent the faintest idea about what they are looking for. A cave? A mine? A tunnel? A hidden cache? To make matters worse the clues have been jumbled, scrambled, sliced and diced where tody we dont know if "cache" really meant mine, "cave" meant tunnel or "shaft" meant crack.
OK. My fingers hurt from typing. Later.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Power
For those of you not familiar with the power that Peter speaks of, many Apache had some form of power given to them. We "white eyes" may find it a little hard to swallow, but there are many cases where it has been shown to exist. Victorio's sister Lozen was said to have power over horses, and to be able to tell the approach and direction of enemies.
In more modern times this same power to detect an enemy was shown many times by a woman named Lupe. She was captured, at the age of sixteen, by Mexicans while a member of the Sierra Madre Apache. She eventually became "Mexacanized" and warned the families she lived with, many times of the nearness of the "Wild Apache". She even told them how many were in the party. She said she could feel and smell them. These events took place just prior to 1940.
Nice post Peter.
Joe
In more modern times this same power to detect an enemy was shown many times by a woman named Lupe. She was captured, at the age of sixteen, by Mexicans while a member of the Sierra Madre Apache. She eventually became "Mexacanized" and warned the families she lived with, many times of the nearness of the "Wild Apache". She even told them how many were in the party. She said she could feel and smell them. These events took place just prior to 1940.
Nice post Peter.
Joe
Joe
Am not sure Lozen had biye' thlii (power over horses). That, I beleive was reserved for Juh (pronounced who-a) leader of the Nednhi of the Sierra Madre. You are correct about her power to see enemy movements at great distance. Odd as it might seem to us, this was spoken about time after time and I beleive there was something to it.
P
Am not sure Lozen had biye' thlii (power over horses). That, I beleive was reserved for Juh (pronounced who-a) leader of the Nednhi of the Sierra Madre. You are correct about her power to see enemy movements at great distance. Odd as it might seem to us, this was spoken about time after time and I beleive there was something to it.
P
Re: Apache Gold?
Joe Ribaudo wrote:Scott,
That is a very interesting story. It does, however, fly in the face of every known fact concerning the Apache and there relationship with gold. There may be a little resistance to this theory from some members of the forum. As detailed as it was, can we assume that you received this information from someone who has seen all of this activity? It would need to be someone with impeccable credentials.... and pictures.
I do like your style.
Joe Ribaudo
"There may be a little resistance to this theory from some members of the forum".
Come'on Joe, If you have a problem with his post, you should be able to spit it right out without speaking for, or encouraging support in the way of resistance from the other members of the forum.
"Impeccable Credentials.... and Pictures"?
I don't think his theory is any more deranged than many others I have seen posted on here. A number of people have posted some very detailed posts concerning who did what, when and where without presenting any form of identification of their source of information or any supporting credibility to their posting.
These things (In my humble opinion) are not conducive to the 2003 spirit of the forum that Roger very nicely proposed for us all and which I fully support.
Weather or not I buy into anyone's theories, ideas or beliefs, I don't think they should be held any more accountable for them than any other member of the forum is accountable for theirs.
There are a lot of people in the realm of Dutchman Hunting that have become almost obsessed with collecting information and maps on the subject. Obsessed to the point of not even worring about how credible the information or map is. And then they freely pass this information out as if it were Gospel.
I have personally seen a considerable amount of information on here that I know for a fact is incorrect. I felt no inclination to correct the individual that made the post for a number of (perhaps selfish) reasons.
I feel it is every man's responsibility to research the source of information for himself. Nothing less that 100% of all information relating to the LDM is hearsay, all the way back to the Jacob Waltz' death bed.
Some 'hearsay' just happens to be a little more credibile than the rest, depending on how far it can be traced back to it's source. I really haven't seen too many people on this forum (Other than Roger who is ALWAYS very carefull about providing the source of his information in detail) even make an effort to supply the source of their information.
My personal feeling is that if we are going to hold one individual accountable for impeccable credentials.... and pictures to back up his posts, then everyone should be held to the same standard.
To date, there have been no rules or standards of compliance to regulate or control what a person may or may not post, and I think Ron is very wise not to impose any. If he did the board would surley dry up and blow away. Afterall, who among us can establish the Credibility of Jacob Waltz himself? 90% of everything we discuss on here pertains to what we believe he told to other people.
LW
Last edited by Lone_Wolf on Sat Jan 04, 2003 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I was kind of surprised to see the John Reed story in the list of people who possibly was the last to take ore out. I only recently read the story about him when I got a back issue of the SMHS journal.Peter wrote: Was the last person to take ore from the mine area Joe Deering in 1885? John Reed in 1888? (if you put any credence in those tales) I do not know, of course. It does amaze that the LDM vanished off of the face of the earth since that time. There are stories about folks visiting the mine area later on. Senor Ballesteros ( I think it was he but might have been a Peralta..sorry cant find it in my papers) supposedly visited the mine site in 1895 and said the area was so broken up that he hardly recognized it
My take on the story was that it was interesting, but didn't seem too convincing. In the journal article, Clay Worst seemed a little iffy on Reed's story also. Perhaps some of the tireless researchers out there have worked on this story too and decided it holds water?
Wasn't the Senor Ballesteros quote associated with Adolph Ruth? I thought that this quote was from a Gonzales who replied to a letter that Erwin Ruth wrote to him, asking for help in finding his father.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Bold Print
Well now LW,
It seems to me that you have said a lot more in your post, then I said in mine. That was a lengthy critique on a very short play of words. What gets these things going is others taking offense to posts that were not directed to them. I have had a little dialog with Scott outside the topics on this forum, and believe he is more then able to speak for himself. If Scott feels slighted, I am sure he will climb off his computer chair and figurativly speaking, stomp the hell out of me. He is an intelligent and competent individual who will not be offended by humor from someone, like myself, who can laugh without analyzing the joke. If you read the posts that followed, you will see a more serious side directed toward Scott and others. I take no umbrage in your comments as I know they were offered in a sincere manner and belief, without malice towards me personally. Deranged theories, on the other hand, would be two words that I would not string together in this kinder and gentler forum.
Scott,
If you are digging thru old photos and lookin for the phone number of that important witness, fugetaboutit! I think I already have them somewhere in my own collection.
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
It seems to me that you have said a lot more in your post, then I said in mine. That was a lengthy critique on a very short play of words. What gets these things going is others taking offense to posts that were not directed to them. I have had a little dialog with Scott outside the topics on this forum, and believe he is more then able to speak for himself. If Scott feels slighted, I am sure he will climb off his computer chair and figurativly speaking, stomp the hell out of me. He is an intelligent and competent individual who will not be offended by humor from someone, like myself, who can laugh without analyzing the joke. If you read the posts that followed, you will see a more serious side directed toward Scott and others. I take no umbrage in your comments as I know they were offered in a sincere manner and belief, without malice towards me personally. Deranged theories, on the other hand, would be two words that I would not string together in this kinder and gentler forum.
Scott,
If you are digging thru old photos and lookin for the phone number of that important witness, fugetaboutit! I think I already have them somewhere in my own collection.
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Few Words
LW,
I can appreciate a man of few words. You are riding in good company indeed.
Adios amigo,
Joe Ribaudo
I can appreciate a man of few words. You are riding in good company indeed.
Adios amigo,
Joe Ribaudo
Joes ideas
I have thought that the ore lost at massacare area was removed and hidden in one of the caches. I think that there was so much emotion during the aftermath of the killings the Indians let their guards slack off and a unrelated person or survivor was able to follow the gold to a hidden cache.This cache was taken and reburied .I feel this is where the Dutchman pulled his gold.The mine I was shown is not the LDM,but it could be a source of some it.I do have a few pics but no scanner to post.Dodged that one,LOL . Of course I could just be making it all up!LOL
Lone Wolf, I never take offense from strangers words on a CRT.I have communicated with Joe.And we're good.
Lone Wolf, I never take offense from strangers words on a CRT.I have communicated with Joe.And we're good.
Scott
I guess I wil just agree to disagree on this one. While I think your idea that the Apache cached some ore after the Peralta Fight has merit, I just dont see Waltz finding the cache and claiming it was his "mine". If Waltz is eliminated entirely from the equation, there is still a large body of anecdotal evidence pointing to a mine.... not a cache.
It would not surprise me in the least if there were/are MULTIPLE mines and caches involved in the tale.
P
I guess I wil just agree to disagree on this one. While I think your idea that the Apache cached some ore after the Peralta Fight has merit, I just dont see Waltz finding the cache and claiming it was his "mine". If Waltz is eliminated entirely from the equation, there is still a large body of anecdotal evidence pointing to a mine.... not a cache.
It would not surprise me in the least if there were/are MULTIPLE mines and caches involved in the tale.
P
If you believe the stories of one of the Apache bands covering up the mines, then the story of them caching the gold would make sense. If you were going to spend all that time covering the mines, would you really just leave the gold ore laying around? If for no other reason than completing the job of covering up all the evidence of mines and gold.
So that would leave at least three areas with gold: original Mexican mine(s), Waltz cache, and Apache cache. And Glovers ore analysis showing them having a common source; the camp ore supposed to be left by the Mexicans, the jewelry ore from Waltz; and the Kochera gold having some link to Apache cache found by Haywood?
So that would leave at least three areas with gold: original Mexican mine(s), Waltz cache, and Apache cache. And Glovers ore analysis showing them having a common source; the camp ore supposed to be left by the Mexicans, the jewelry ore from Waltz; and the Kochera gold having some link to Apache cache found by Haywood?