The Stone Maps

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Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Roy:
The lack of a "Prominent" identifier is exactly the problem.
Without the existence of a standalone Christogram,such as IHS/JHS or of the acronym OFM,it is impossible to credit any particular person or group with the creation of the stones.As letters incorporated within the carvings,any such combination would be pure speculation.IHS and JHS Christograms in particular were and are used by many Christian faiths,so the presence of such on a particular stone (as I have posted previously),might only suggest that the carver wished to show his faith as Christian.The use of other religious symbology also seems to support this precept. They are also often used and worn for luck as well,and may have been included for that reason as well.

Regards:SH.
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Oroblanco
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Somehiker wrote:Roy:
The lack of a "Prominent" identifier is exactly the problem.
Without the existence of a standalone Christogram,such as IHS/JHS or of the acronym OFM,it is impossible to credit any particular person or group with the creation of the stones.As letters incorporated within the carvings,any such combination would be pure speculation.IHS and JHS Christograms in particular were and are used by many Christian faiths,so the presence of such on a particular stone (as I have posted previously),might only suggest that the carver wished to show his faith as Christian.The use of other religious symbology also seems to support this precept. They are also often used and worn for luck as well,and may have been included for that reason as well.

Regards:SH.
Hence my question whether anyone had found a combination of the symbols which could point to a specific saint or order, rather than just generically 'Catholic'. Other avenues of research could be productive or at least interesting, such as the fact that several of the symbols on the stone tablets are also found among the Raampa secret symbols, which seemingly could not be related. Thank you for your reply at any rate.
Oroblanco
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Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

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Roy:
Rather than "generically catholic",I see them as generically Christian.
While researching such "Raampa secret symbols" may be entertaining,I doubt any solution derived by using them would make much sense.If one of the principals suspected of carving the maps was found to have had an interest in such things,then that would be more interesting than entertaining.
Perhaps the "DON",along with the prominence of the dagger,could be considered the signature of the map maker?
Regards:SH.
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Somehiker wrote
Roy:
Rather than "generically catholic",I see them as generically Christian.
While researching such "Raampa secret symbols" may be entertaining,I doubt any solution derived by using them would make much sense.If one of the principals suspected of carving the maps was found to have had an interest in such things,then that would be more interesting than entertaining.
Perhaps the "DON",along with the prominence of the dagger,could be considered the signature of the map maker?
The mention of Raampa was only as an example; on the other hand unlike the Kings Code, which no one seems to be able to find any documentation that it even exists, Raampa is a real writing system, kept secret for centuries. There are other symbolic non-alphabetic writing systems as well, and entertainment value is quite possibly all that some of us will ever get out of the stone tablets so can be interesting to compare the symbols found on them with known symbolic systems, even if quite far-fetched.

If this seems out-of-the-box it is only exploring other avenues of research, which may seem a waste of time to you but is always educational. Among the unusual systems that have some similarities with the symbols on the stone tablets, Tifinagh, the Angelic writing system, Cypriot, all are interesting possibilities. The Angelic alphabet has letters which are lines connected by dots, and one system known as Tagalog includes a letter symbol that very closely resembles a heart, though upside down.

Not sure I can agree that the symbology of the stone tablets would work as simply generically Christian rather than Catholic, due to the priest/witch figure. It can work as a priest symbol in Catholicism, but to non-Catholics the best 'fit' is as a witch or wizard, which would hardly make sense with the cross symbol held in the hand.

The DON could very well be the signature of the map-maker. Why there is no surname is a mystery however.

They say that a picture paints a thousand words, so what are the images on the stone tablets really trying to say? Are they just simple treasure maps or did the creator intend on much more cryptic meanings as some have proposed? As no one is interested in exploring alternate avenues I will drop it.

Good luck and good hunting Wayne, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

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Roy:
Although I am not Catholic,I have never considered the figure on the H/P Stone to be a "witch".The Cross symbology alone was enough to position my often expressed opinion opposite of those,including the PHD's at Desert Archaeology and possibly Fr.Polzer SJ.(His published comments I have yet to see)Perhaps they as well were not aware that many,if not all Christian Religions and denominations employ the Latin Cross (the only type used on or for the Stone maps)as well as other,more ornate versions.They carry them and wear them as artifacts as well as designs upon their robes and cassocks.Western or Eastern,they are all Christians.But not all are Catholic.I was baptized in the Anglican Church for example.........http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the ... _look_like.

I myself do not believe the Stone Maps are either simple or cryptic in execution.
I think that they are both.
Simple in the sense that everything a searcher would need is shown on the maps.
Cryptic in the sense that both words and pictographs are used to provide directions.
The Map Stones are as simple as any modern Highway or City map would be....without a legend for easy interpretational use.
The Horse/Priest Stone is only as cryptic as any set of instructions,of the best route from point A to point B,might be....if received from a stranger who did not speak your own native language fluently and did not use a method of layout with which you were familiar.

Regards:SH.
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

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I still hold to my thoughts that the Stone Maps were made by Jesuits, and if there was anything on them that said "St Francis Xavier" "IHS" "Jesuit" or anything else of the like, I would consider it proof against their authenticity.

If they were indeed made by Jesuits to guide later Jesuits to their hidden wealth, then there would have been no need to identify their makers. Jesuits would know who they were for, and non Jesuits would post all kinds of obscure theories on internet forums! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

don't know who made the stone maps...or if they portray something real...
but it is interesting that they were found just around the end of the butte from the only gas station/ coffee shop within 30 miles...a favorite watering hole for many of the players in superstition's history

not one person examining those maps ever makes that connection.

the ruins are still there at Florence junction...
the approx distance from the stone map find site to the cafe is around a mile an a half..on the old road...you can still access the site.
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Re: The Stone Maps

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According to the interview with one of Travis' Friends, he had hunted arrowheads in that same area previously.

Mike
alan m
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

pippinwhitepaws wrote:don't know who made the stone maps...or if they portray something real...
but it is interesting that they were found just around the end of the butte from the only gas station/ coffee shop within 30 miles...a favorite watering hole for many of the players in superstition's history

not one person examining those maps ever makes that connection.

the ruins are still there at Florence junction...
the approx distance from the stone map find site to the cafe is around a mile an a half..on the old road...you can still access the site.
I don't make the connection because I do not believe the story of how and where the tablets were found.
It was a story made up by Clerance Mitchell, IMO
Seriously does it make any sense that someone would create the stone tablets making one of them provide directions to the other three and then based upon those directions hide the other three only 25 feet away ? :?
It may be the best story we've got but I am ready to throw it out with the bath water.
Alan
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Sorry Alan,

But that story is what Travis told to his uncle Robert in 1949. Travis even drew Robert a map showing exactly where he found them. It is also the same story Travis told to his friends that knew about the stones when he had them.

Believe what you want, but you should base your beliefs on known facts.

Mike
alan m
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Mike McChesney wrote:Sorry Alan,

But that story is what Travis told to his uncle Robert in 1949. Travis even drew Robert a map showing exactly where he found them. It is also the same story Travis told to his friends that knew about the stones when he had them.

Believe what you want, but you should base your beliefs on known facts.

Mike
Regardless who told what to whom, it's still a story.
You cannot prove that Travis told the truth.
I am not trying to pick an argument with you, but the fact remains that this story of how the tablets were found does not make sense.
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Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Pip:
Well,it's often said.."Truth is stranger than fiction"

Bet most of them coffee drinkin players, when they heard the news, looked at each other and said....."NO WAY !!"

Then went back to sharing information about where each player thought that old Lost Dutchman Mine really was.Secretly though,each pair of eyes scanned the room,every player with the same thought in mind....I'll bet he done it !. :wink:

Kinda what I figure happened.

Regards:SH.
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Alan,

I just corrected your opinion that Clarence Mitchell made up the story. It was around MANY years before Mitchell came into the story.

If it was BS, then why would he lie to his uncle? Even go so far as to draw him a map to the bogus find location? His uncle had the maps for some years and along with his landlord/partner made several trips to the Supers from Oregon. Would you do that to a close relative? Robert was close enough to Travis for him to have given the Stone Maps to Robert when he became ill (around 1956). That was when he drew the map for Robert.

If Travis would have hoaxed the Stone Maps, do you think he would have REALLY done that to his uncle? Do you think he would have spent all those nights with a couple of close friends sticking his finger in that big hole saying "If I could figure out where that is, I's be a millionaire."? Do you think

As a close family member, don't you think Robert would have known from other family members (or Travis himself) if the truth about the stones was different from the story Travis told Robert?

Since most everybody involved is dead now, feel free to guess at whatever you want. But keep in mind that it is no more than a guess.

Mike
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Also,

If you believe that the Latin Heart is authentic, then you had better reassess you theory, as the Latin Heart was supposedly found right near where the others were supposedly found. :wink:

Mike
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

well,
i do believe anyone examining the stones would better their understanding if they visited the site of the find.

good luck...no dog in this fight.
alan m
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Mike
First, according to Glover, Travis did not give the stones to Robert, Robert took them to prevent them from becoming damaged.
Also, it has been my experience that the last people you should trust are relatives.
If Travis faked some of the markings on the tablet, what is there to prevent him from fabricating a story about them?
He may very well have found them where he says he did, the latin heart stone supports this, but what I am contesting is the story that interprets the symbols on the H/P stone as leading to the location of the others.
That story which was first published by Mitchell, is what does not make sense.
Do you really think that anyone hiding anything of value, who created such a map would then bury it in a creek bed and invent some cryptic code to indicate that the second part is hidden only 25 feet away?
It is all a moot point unless that story prevents any further work being done on the symbols of the H/P tablet.
Last, for PIP, this is not a dog fight, it is a strongly polarized discussion.
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

PIP,

I agree completely.

Alan,

What he meant was that he doesn't really care one way or another (as in "I don't have a horse in that race").

Now, if you are just referring to the part of the story about deciphering the H/P Stone to find the others, then it is a possibility that Mitchell made up that part.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we don't know exactly what Travis did or did not carve on the stones. We only know about the "zeros". People have said for many years that the carvings on the stone maps look like they were done by two different people. Some are very robust and some are weak and shallow.

Mike
alan m
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Mike
This may be the first time we have agreed on anything, :D
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Pip:
Yes,a visit to the discovery site is a must for those who might see the story as mostly true.
There is a lot more to be seen than a bunch of holes in the ground.I noticed a couple of things last time, that I want to have a closer look at when I get the chance to go back.
My previous post was tongue-in-cheek,but I'm sure it would explain why,whenever something new or unusual is found,dozens of differing versions of the discovery soon make the rounds.
Suspicion of both finder and find also comes into play cause nobody wants to be made a fool of....especially old timers.

Regards:SH.
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

I don't have a problem with the probability that the H/P Stone was made by a different set of hands.For me,it makes sense that this would have been the case,and the timeline which I have been working with would have made it impossible for a single person to carve all of the various stones.Or even to decide what should be on them.

Regards:SH.
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

so...someone sent me photos of a ruin in that area a while back...up on high...probably can see the stone map site from these ruins..
if the stone maps are genuine, then that is where they were probably carved...
the person who sent the pics did not notice a pile or scattering of stone chips...i asked...but.
some young pup could climb up there and examine the area for some stone chips that don't belong up on that ridge of magma.

just a thought. he never did send the exact location...hint!
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Pip:
It would be nice to know more about the history of the area.
An old military map of 1850 shows an "Indian" trail from Maricopa Wells passing through and entering the Sups.On that map,it passes through a valley called "Mission Valley".Could this be a former name for the Queen Creek drainage ? If so,was there once a mission or visita there ?
If the Jesuits or the Franciscans hoped to convert the Yavapai,perhaps they did try to establish one somewhere at the base of the mountains.Maybe in the wrong place,at the wrong time though ?
There also used to be an adobe ranch house near the stock pond,part of which was saved as a heritage building and moved somewhere else (can't remember where,though).
Tom K. might know..or at least the name of the ranch..which is how I found the heritage designation story online.
There may be older adobe ruins present,perhaps on the ridge as well as on the flats.
Don't know about stone chips from the maps though.I wouldn't think that there would be very much.There is rock matching every stone out there,so it would be hard to determine if any chips were from shaping the maps or making something else.

Regards:SH.
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

somehiker.
i have been attempting to find a 'vista' in that area...several old maps locate a mission at the confluence of the Gila and the san pedro..
for years i thought it was at the site of the old cafe at florence junction.
many interviews of locals...old maps..ect.
father kino was said to have set the vista when he traveled to sante fe from the od'hams...that was along the gila to the san pedro, northeast to the highway of death.

daily prayer was critical to the early padre....a vista a day...so...small prayer centers were established along common paths...

the ruins i spoke of, on the ridge...sure meet the need of a vista...but...i am leaning towards the vista being a bit east of the site in question.
while the chips from the stone maps would be small, stone carvers set the stone down and chipped at them...they did not pack them far from the work site...imo...
there is a pile of remains somewhere, just as when someone made points...stone remains unless washed away....
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Pip,

Just a small detail, but they were called "visitas" not "vistas". A visita was under the auspices of a particular mission (hence "visita Tumacacori"). It was a place controlled and visited by the Father of the Mission responsible for its' visita. A place might get the title "visita" if there were people living in the area. Too few to warrant a full Mission Church, but too far away to be directly overseen by the Mission.

Originally, Tumacacori was a visita until its' population grew enough to warrant a Mission.

Mike
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

thank you mike; for bringing it to my attention i am still dyslexic.
since joe has claimed to have spoken to susan, that you get the full run up from him, on all my peculiarities...
just because i can not spell, does not mean i am not intelligent or informed about the history of the southwest...
just the opposite is what most who speak to me find...

i am looking for an adobe, rock, ocotillo, structure used for prayer, built in the time of the spanish explorations of the southwest.
one, perhaps, is located within sight of the location the stone maps were found.

thanks again.
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