The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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lazarus
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

by the way...
I have arrived at an answer to a question often pondered...

According to my research, the Peralta mines featured on the stone maps and the Sombrero mines are not the same.

Note to those paying close attention:

You may recall me having recently stated the stone maps were not carved by anyone named Peralta. From what I have ascertained, the maps were most likely carved by Ortiz, the mine foreman. This also explains why the Peralta family has been unable to identify the location of the mines.

Although Peralta owned the mining operation, he was not a miner, and does not appear to have ever visited the site. This was all left to his cousin and neighbor, Ortiz. Ortiz also adopted the two Gonzales boys, who survived the massacre and were held by a local Indian chief for nearly two years before their release was negotiated by John Bartlett.

The 'three sisters' were in fact, two sisters, and a half sister, all whom were married to Ortiz at one time or another. Ortiz was highly respected, and apparently compassionate.

Now you know how these names made their way into the story. None of it helps find the mine.


Brad
Joe Ribaudo
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Missions

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

The photo can be found on the facing page (un-numbered) of page 430, in John Russell Bartlett's "Personal Narrative......", Volume I. I believe it has been used in other books, so you might find it elsewhere.

Chapter XVIII, "Santa Cruz To La Magdalena" begins on page 406 and ends on page 432.

Joe
lazarus
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

thanks for the info. I also want to thank you for the map, which is a fine addition to my collection. You are indeed an endless stream of information.

I was doing a little research this morning, and it led me in some rather compelling directions. This may not appear relevant, but I suspect you'll sense a connection. Check out the following, culled from Encarta.



quin·tes·sence

quin·tes·sence [kwin téss'nss]
n
1. embodiment: the purest or most perfect example of something

2. chemistry extract: the purest extract or essence of a substance, containing the substance's properties in their most concentrated form

3. philosophy fifth element: in ancient and medieval philosophy, the fifth element after earth, air, fire, and water.
Heavenly bodies were said to be made of it.

4. cosmology hypothetical repulsive force: a hypothetical repulsive force in cosmology that permeates the whole of space and counteracts the force of gravity


[15th century. Via French < medieval Latin quinta essentia "fifth essence"]


-quin·tes·sen·tial [kwìnt&#601; sénsh'l], , adj
-quin·tes·sen·tial·ly, , adv

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Interesting, wouldn't you say?

Brad
lazarus
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Bells

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

Wow!
I just went back over your info. on the two bells, and it's fantastic!
I can't add anything because I don't know anything about them other than what you have provided. I was so flustered by that point, I somehow overlooked that post entirely. My loss.

On the upside, the dates you provided fit seamlessly with my time-line. You may think I've run off the road on this one, but I still can't help but suspect there easily could have been a mission in the vicinity at one point. Remember, Tempe was formerly the village of San Pablo, also located along the Salt River, and well north of the Gila River, thus crushing that ill conceived theory.

According to documented accounts, Mexicans living in small communities along the southern banks of the Salt River were hired to help reconstruct the small earthen dam just down stream of the confluence of the Verde and the Salt.

It was not really that unusual for the two factions to establish residence on opposing sides of a river, often within eyesight of each other. It was at best, an anxious compromise, and commonly turned violent when the Indians ran out of patience. The Mexicans knew they were unwelcome, but greed prevailed over fear.

I haven't had any time to follow through on this line of research for a few weeks. Buckeye road followed the northern bank of the river, terminating near Hayden's ferry. It represents one of the earliest routes through the valley. I believe the runway featured in the photo was the first of it's size at Sky Harbor, and sits right on top of the old Buckeye roadway. The fence and buildings in the photo would have been facing south along the old roadway. My conclusions are anything but conclusive, based on old photographs and vague recollections. Oh, and perhaps a tad of insight into how mission locations were chosen.

(Joe: this is another example of where your research skills are priceless.)


Brad
lazarus
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Further Clarification

Post by lazarus »

Further clarification.

In an earlier post, I contend the Stone Maps are in fact, two separate sets, with the trail maps having been carved at an earlier date. There is plenty of evidence supporting Peralta family presence at the mine site as early as the mid 1700's.

I don't believe the trail maps were carved by Ortiz, as he most likely was not born yet. I have found no evidence suggesting the trail maps were not created by some earlier Peralta.

Brad
Joe Ribaudo
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Buckeye Road

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

I believe Buckeye Road is about a 1/2 mile south of that runway. If there was a mission, there would be some kind of records and there are none.
Anything is possible, so you might want to keep looking.

Joe
lazarus
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

obviously, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong...

I recall them having re-routed the road, but not that much. A half mile puts me way off the mark.

Brad
lazarus
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?

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

Actually, I meant the facade in the photo was just off of Buckeye. The Left Wing is indeed, about a half a mile North.

Obviously, the location of the restaurant is not what I'm after, unless I'm after breakfast and coffee...

I'll tell you what I find.

Brad
lazarus
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???

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I just returned from the Left Seat, and I am more perplexed than before.

You are right on every account.
The outer gate was open, but the restaurant itself is closed on Sunday. I was however, able to poke my camera through the fence and get off a quick shot of the facade and bell. It appears to be the same location, right down to the runway, but if that is the same facade as the one in the photo I am losing my mind. No interest in that thing.

I only saw one bell, the one in the facade, and I'm not sure it's the same bell as the one in the photo. Again, I'll let you know what I conclude.

Buckeye sits south of the runways, but north of the river. That would have been the location for a mission. On the other hand, the railroad tracks run across the street from the Left Seat, and that is also a big clue.

I'll return tomorrow for a look and see if I can't straighten myself out.
I'll study the photos later today.


Brad
lazarus
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Wow!

Post by lazarus »

Joe,
that didn't take long at all.

That is by no means the same facade, (which you never claimed), nor does it appear to be the same bell, as the bell hanging now is somewhat smaller and the lip of the bell is curved differently.

In the original photo, the facade is either the remnant of an actual building, or a very, very cleverly designed faux facade, topping out around twenty feet. The cross is also different. Note the size of the doorway. They obviously tore the old facade down to expand the runway...

I'll post both photos in my photo archive shortly.

Brad
lazarus
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Joe,

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

The old facade in the original photo is so very two dimensional, and yet, something just isn't right...

Brad
lazarus
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Just A Touch

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I might as well add,
Nick says it reminds him of some set from 'A Touch of Evil'.

Brad
Joe Ribaudo
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Mission Bells?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

You are correct. The original facade was, I believe, torn down. If you would like a better picture of the original bell, no need to make another trip, although I would enjoy seeing a higher quality photo, as I will be happy to send you a picture.

Joe
lazarus
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Wow...

Joe,
thanks for the photo. That's quite a facade! It suddenly takes on a whole new dimension...

Brad
Joe Ribaudo
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Das Facade

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Yes it is, especially when you consider it was built by a very young man.......for fifteen dollars.

Thanks for the kind words in your earlier post. None of them, of course, are true. :)

Joe
lazarus
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Bell

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I don't know where you come up with this stuff, but it's pretty amazing.

I posted the photo of the bell in the photo archive 'Every Picture Tells A Story', titled: Airport Bell.

The bell is lacking the original crown and the clapper assembly is missing as well. The curve of the lip of the bell is quite unusual, and the bell has a long vertical crack.

The eye-bolt assembly suspending the bell is out of the blue. That thing cannot possibly be original. It should be a crown. It doesn't look to me like a foundry bell, or a Spanish bell, for that matter. I am not convinced it is the bell in the old photo.

Brad
Joe Ribaudo
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More on Bells

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

I don't know that much about bells, but I don't think I would be so quick to dismiss the eye-bolt (style) assembly as less than authentic. That style, as opposed to the crown was not that unusual, even in the early missions.

Much of my material comes from the books in, what Carolyn and I call, my Apache Room. Some of it comes from the internet. A good deal comes from personal contacts with people close to the subjects.

While I have a lot of information that I have gathered over the years, I don't feel that it is out of the ordinary. What I may have over some others, is the ability to find the answers. If they are not in my books, or on the internet, I go to the sources closest to my questions.

If I make a statement of "fact", it's unlikely that I don't have it from a very good source. Most of the time, not always, I have no problem with disclosing my sources. I try to share as much as I can, which does not always set well with everyone.

I understand that my delievery often comes off as "smart ass", but the effort is focused at sharing the information with others. It does not always come easily, and others may not have the same resources that I do.

What amazes me, are the number of people on these forums who could be working as historians in Universities. Many of them have traveled the same roads as I have, and come out much farther ahead than I could have dreamed it was possible.....given the terms of our lives.

After all, it's just a hobby.

Joe
lazarus
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Bell

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

Oh, I wouldn't say I've written off the bell or the eye-bolt, but I doubt it's a foundry bell. I'm not capable of making any reasonable conclusions until I get a closer look.

It is an odd bell, in an odd location, with an odd recent history.

Brad
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Brads' Bells

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

Well, Gloria have returned from the Left Seat Restaurant, where we enjoyed breakfast and coffee as planned. We ate outdoors alone on the patio, right where the old facade used to stand. The bell is in rather poor condition. The clapper is missing and the pan, neck and shoulder have been entirely broken off and welded back on. I posted two more photos of the bell in my photo archive. Here is the link to a shot of the top of the bell. Notice the damage where the crown of the bell has broken away from the neck. http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... t_Bell_012

I am quite certain the eye-bolt assembly was added later. Oddly, I have seen only one other bell like this one... the one hanging in the bell tower at the Chapel of San Miguel, also missing the original crown and clapper. (not the bell in the lobby.)

I'm going to start another thread on bells so everyone can get back to the Stone Maps. I'll also start a separate photo archive for bells with detailed photos of the Chapel of San Miguel, and the big bell.

Brad
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New Topic

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Great pictures. I started a topic for Spanish Missions of the Southwest. I believe we can shoehorn everything we might want to discuss into that.

In the archives, I have posted three pictures of the old bell in the San Miguel Mission. The picture from 1915 comes from "Books Of The Southwest", from The University Of Arizona Library. The title is: "Spanish Mission Churches of New Mexico" by, L. Bradford Prince, LL.D.

The write up on the San Miguel Chapel includes the picture of "The Ancient Bell Of San Miguel" on page 101. It may or may not be the same bell that is in the gift shop today. Not being an authority on bells, I would appreciate your opinion.

If you start a photo archive for bells, if you like, I will be glad to move some pictures into it.

Joe
lazarus
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Bells

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I love the old photos.

Yes, that is 'the Bell of San Jose", the big bell in the lobby at the Chapel of San Miguel. I'll start the archive just as soon as I get some coffee into my bloodstream.

Brad
Linda Dutton
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Re: A Horse of a different color

Post by Linda Dutton »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:S.C.,
I will show you the horse eventually. Bobby will be nowhere in sight, but the author of that map will be more then a suspicion.

azmula,
I don't mind telling you what I have figured out at all. I believe the maps are legitimate. I know all of the important (approximate) locations. The mines, the trails, the monuments, the landmarks and the final location, which I believe was or still is a cache. One of the Xs on the maps is the location of the LDM. It conforms to other maps and stories that show or describe the location. I know the exact location of the horse and the witch. I have disclosed the location of the witch but not the horse. I believe they have nothing to do with the locations of the mines or cache. I know 100% where most of the map locations are, to the spot on the ground. The answer to your next question is: The Xs and the final location are in very rough terrain. The only possible open or obvious location, will be the LDM. We will search that ravine this year. The maps are not a precise locater for the mines or cache. It will take a lot of time on the ground to find the exact spots, if it's possible at all. I do not discount the possibility that the Stone Maps could be a hoax. There are good indications that two of them probably are. After my next trip I will have the answer to that question. Since the other maps and stories in the LDM legend support the location shown on the Stone Maps, for the Waltz mine, I believe something will be found in the ravine. I have been fairly specific here as to what I have "figured out". Does this give you a better perspective? I hope so, because this is all you will get until next year. :) Good hunting.
Joe

I think I have what you're looking for. The Newly Release Book, "Spirits in the Mountain", authored by Michael and William Johnson.
This book is an effort to end "The Curse of the Superstition Mountains"
They have succeeded in proving the "Peralta Stone Tablets" are not a hoax. This book even has a newly printed map that was traced over an actual photo. ("The Johnson Discovery Map"). Some might feel revealing what they believe to be "The Lost Dutchman Mine", location might start a gold rush. After trying to get everyone to pay attention and an effort to get the site protected has fallen on deaf ears. This location needs to be explored. I think, as a resident of Apache Junction, Arizona, that the fear the town would have little reason to exist is not true at all. So many have claimed to have found the location that crying wolf has caused a real problem for those who really having something to share. Please visit the web site "www.spiritsinthemountain.com, the books are also available at the Superstition Mountain Museum, their book signing was a success. See the photos, these guys don't hold anything back. Cable Aerial Tramway???
assistant to authors of
"Spirits in the Mountain"
www.spiritsinthemountain.com
Linda Dutton
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Post by Linda Dutton »

Lone_Wolf wrote:I am always glad to see a new topic relating to the Stone Maps. :D

As I have mentioned before, I am a firm believer in the authenticity of the information inscribed on them. Like several other people on this website I own a copy of the reproductions made by Richard Robinson and cast from the same molds as the reproductions seen in the Mesa Southwest Museum and the SMHS Museum. I have attended lectures given by Robinson and have had private conversations with him concerning how he came to be in possession of the original stones to make the molds from, and his story of how and where they were found as he knew it. I won't go into these details in this posting because I have never seen this information made public by Mr. Robinson and believe that if it does get put out for the masses, It should be his option to decide when and where.

I also had a several discussions with Bob Ward before his death concerning his interpretation of the Stone Maps. Although Bob had some strange ways of interpretating certain things on the them, Some of his conclusions were very convincing when his (In the field) evidence (photos) were examined and compared to applicable lines on the maps. Since I never did know where he took the photos, I had no way of knowing if the locations were really in the Superstitions or just anywhere he found the shapes he wanted. To actually see the things in person and observe their physical relationship to each other in the field would have been great, but Bob's health was already too far gone by that point, and he refused to draw me a map to them. :(

As far as Chuck Kenworthy's opinions are concerned. I went to Two of his lectures on his interpretation of them. One he gave to the Members of the SMHS in the upstairs meeting room, and the other (open to the public) at the Pro Mack Mining store in Apache Junction. In addition to those lectures, I had a number of semi-private discussions with Chuck in the Lounge of the Grand Hotel in Apache Junction. Additionally, I made one short trip into the mountains with him to look at some of his "Landmarks". Because of my own belief in the Stone Maps I tried desperately to find something/anything in Chuck's interpretation that I could use in my own defense of them. Try as I did, I could never get a single thing from him that could be verified in any way. :( :? :x

He made a big thing in his book "Spanish Monuments & Trail Markers" about "Verification Marks" that could be found on his Monuments and Markers. My personal agenda for my trip into the mountains with him was to see for myself, one of his "Verification Marks'. To my regret, he provided me only with excuses for why he could not show me any. I asked him to show me one thing in the mountains that could be solidly linked to something inscribed on the Stone Maps, and again I was disappointed.

In all of my personal experiences with Chuck I never came up with a single bit of information that could be verified. In every case, you were simply expected to take his word for it. Please don't misunderstand, His Landmarks and Monuments DO exist! The photos in his books verify that! It's what he claims that makes them applicable to the Stone Maps that is in question and could not be verified.

Chuck made a lot of claims as to what he had found in the way of artifacts and treasures, but surprisingly, he didn't even have any photos of them to show. :?

You guys can buy his books and believe his stories if you want to, but you'll never get me to believe in anything you attempt to back up with what Chuck Kenworthy said or printed. :!:

Still, I am a believer in the Stone Maps. But because of what I have seen for myself in the mountains that I believe is applicable to them, Not because of anything Robinson, Ward or Kenworthy came up with. I am sure by now, you are all waiting for me to disclose something solid that will "Verify" to you what I believe to be a "True" Landmark pertaining to something inscribed on the Stone Maps. That's only fair, But, I'll put it as delicately as I can, I'm just not ready to share that information with the general public yet. What sets me apart from Robinson, Ward and Kenworthy then? That's easy. I'm not taking your money for my book in which I claim that you will find these answers!

I will give you something you can get your teeth into tho. Any good Prospector with a minimal amount of crevicing skills that works LaBarge Canyon below where Squaw Box drains into it, will come out with some gold in his bottle. That's something that you can go out and verify for yourself! You may even see some places where I have been digging around looking for bedrock. :wink: :P :o

LW


You will find pictures relating the Peralta Stone Tablets in comparison to what the authors have found on the west side of the mountain, carved into the mountain, some of them 80-feet high.
I think I have what you're looking for. The Newly Released Book, "Spirits in the Mountain", authored by Michael and William Johnson.
This book is an effort to end "The Curse of the Superstition Mountains"
They have succeeded in proving the "Peralta Stone Tablets" are not a hoax. This book even has a newly printed map that was traced over an actual photo. ("The Johnson Discovery Map"). Some might feel revealing what they believe to be "The Lost Dutchman Mine", location might start a gold rush. After trying to get everyone to pay attention and an effort to get the site protected has fallen on deaf ears. This location needs to be explored. I think, as a resident of Apache Junction, Arizona, that the fear the town would have little reason to exist is not true at all. So many have claimed to have found the location that crying wolf has caused a real problem for those who really having something to share. Please visit the web site "www.spiritsinthemountain.com, the books are also available at the Superstition Mountain Museum, their book signing was a success. See the photos, these guys don't hold anything back. Cable Aerial Tramway???
assistant to authors of
"Spirits in the Mountain"
www.spiritsinthemountain.com
lazarus
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Update:

Post by lazarus »

For those wondering how the bell debate resolved, it hasn't. Joe and I are still attempting to hammer it out.

Round One goes to Joe.

There are no official records suggesting there was ever a chapel at or near the present location of the bell.

Round Two goes to Brad.

The location was once a Mexican community large enough to support a church or chapel.

As for the bell, who knows?

And now...
Back to the maps.


laz
Joe Ribaudo
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Bell Ringing....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Actually there was a chapel at that location. It was a wedding chapel.

As for where the bell came from, the first church in Phoenix opened in 1871. That means that the bell, which was said to be 100 years old when the wedding chapel was built, likely spent most of that time elsewhere.

That means that the bell did not always hang in a Phoenix church. In fact, it may never have hung in a church in Arizona. It may very well have been purchased for a church, and been found to be unsuitable, placed into storage and never used by the owners.

Having read the information you provided, I don't find where "The location was once a Mexican community large enough to support a church or chapel."

Mexicans are, pretty much, Catholics and the church keeps very good records of even the smallest parish. The first Catholic priest came even later.

We are straying farther and farther from mission influence in the Phoenix, which I believe was part of the original thesis.

Take care,

Joe
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