The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Tracy L Hawkins
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Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

Joe
No doubt the old timers were a lot harder on their animals that we are today, look at the spurs and spade bits the mexicans used back then.
Many years ago Dale Howard and I rode up Hog canyon to the top of the main mountain ( I have always heard the main mountain refered to as "Flatiron" is that the correct name ?) Unless your destionation was the top,why would anyone ride up that trail and down the east side to get into,say, the boulder canyon area when it is a much easier trail thrugh Peralta canyon? The east side of Flatiron can be riden up just south of Willow Springs ( apx where Harry France went up) but it is extreamly rough. Unless the LDM or another mine is on the top of Flatironit would not be lodgical to use any one of the western canyons . Comments ???
TLH
Joe Ribaudo
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Speculation

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Tracy,
You are correct concerning the Flatiron. There are many reasons why the Peraltas may have chosen a more dangerous or difficult trail into the mountains. The most obvious would be to avoid the Apache. You could also speculate that the LDM is on the main mountain somewhere. You believe that Harry France was there. It is God awful country and many would consider it spooky. It may be sacred to the Apache. Many stories surrounding the main mastif and the Indians point to that possibility. Many of us have been there and left it behind, including Brownie Holmes and Tracy Hawkins. I think you were both right.

I have a picture of Chucks showing a large heart on the side of a hill. When I get back home, I will scan it and e-mail it to you. I am wondering if it is the heart at Twin Buttes.

Joe
Tracy L Hawkins
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Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

Joe
I am certain Chuck had pictures of the carving at twin buttes at one time.
Back then Dale,Ernie, Chuck and I shared this kind of info. You and this forum are bringing back a lot of memories. Its hell getting old .
TLH

Joe
I am sure others in the forum would be intrested in seeing that picture. I had copys (8by10s ) at one time but I have no idea where they are now. Ex wife distroyed a lot of my old papers. I am trying to find a super 8 projector so I can get copys from the film I have.
TLH
Joe Ribaudo
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Super Eight Film

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Tracy,
I have an eight by ten of the heart. I took some super eight film of Chucks and had it converted to VCR a couple of years ago in Tempe or Mesa. You could do the same with yours or if you like I will do it in March when I come down there. I will pay for it and have an extra copy made for you.
Joe
walker12
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Post by walker12 »

FWIW, my $.02 is that that Flatiron ONLY refers to the wedge shaped area that looks like an old cast iron clothes iron. http://www.goldcanyonwebsite.com/SM%20- ... ron-10.jpg
Tracy L Hawkins
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Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

Walker
LOL Looking at the Goldfield topo map it would seem you are right. What the heck is the name of the main mountain then ??? I have been around here for over 40 years and I'll be darned if I know . I have always heard it refered to as Flatiron.
TLH
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Post by walker12 »

Of course the obvious answer is Superstition Mountain. At least I have heard that one quite a bit. Then again I don't think there is really a single mountain you can point to and say that is Superstition Mountain. Instead I think it is more of a RANGE along the western front of the wilderness called The Superstitions or the Superstition Mountains. Within this range are places called the North Summit, South Summit, Battleship, Flatiron, ridgeline, etc.

This is just my personal take.
Joe Ribaudo
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Superstition Mountain

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Walker 12 and Tracy,
I have always heard that the main mountain ridge line and down both sides is Superstition Mountain proper. I have heard and seen the 5057' main peak referred to as Superstition Peak many times over the last forty-four years.
Joe
S.C.
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3D

Post by S.C. »

This will be my second-to-last posting about the Stone Maps. Thereafter, I will speak no more about them. So, readers will no longer have to endure me harping about my friend Bobby and his horse….

The discussion on the Stone Maps makes me recall some scenes from some movies I have seen over the years…

There is the scene in “Lust for Gold” (the “faithful” Hollywood version of “Thunder Gods Gold”) where the person playing Barry Storm is standing inside the hole of a window rock and sees his shadow in the beam of light on the mountainside down below him. He wonders if the beam of light could point to what he was seeking…

Then there is a scene where James Mason, Pat Boone, and friends in the movie “Journey to the Center of the Earth” are standing on the rim of a volcano in Iceland. They then see the sun shine through a window rock at a precise time and day of the year to see it indicate the location of a cave that leads to the center of the Earth….

There is also a scene in the movie “Secret of the Incas” in which Charlton Heston takes a curved disk made of gold and inserts it into a place in the wall of an Incan tomb. The sun shines through a hole in the wall and hits the disk then bounces off it to point to a spot on an adjacent wall – indicating the location of a golden – diamond studded – sunburst…

And, in the movie “McKenna’s Gold” (loosely based on the Lost Adams Diggings tale) is a scene in which Gregory Peck and friends see the rising sun create a shadow as it shined against a tall “needle-like” peak. The shadow then pointed to the entrance to a canyon of gold….

And there is the grand-daddy of them all: the map room scene in “Raiders of the Lost Ark” in which Harrison Ford holds the “staff of Ra” with jewel-studded headpiece. The sun shines through a “window” and hits the headpiece – thus creating a “laser beam” of light that hits a spot on the model of the city indicating the location of the Lost Ark…

These make me think of treasure hunting solutions in 3D terms. Solutions are not on flat maps… But are dynamic and bold.

Not that I believe in the Stone Maps… BUT… what “if” the solution was not so straight forward as thought? What if, for example, the holes in the stone maps were there for a reason? What if they were to enable one to use the maps in an unusual way? Like, what if the holes were to hold sticks? To hold them upright… Sticks of certain lengths… (There are numbers all over the maps…) And what if the sticks were used like a sun-dial in which they created small shadows that pointed to certain places?… Or if they were used to line up with each other to indicate by line-of-sight a position on the maps?.. Or some other non-traditional manner?

If, and I say “if,” the maps were real, maybe the solution is not a two-dimensional one – but rather a three dimensional one? …
Joe Ribaudo
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Point A to Point B

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

S.C.,
You obviously don't have much to do today. Once I waded thru your, all time favorite movies list, you had a valid point. The holes are there for a reason. Just need to know how long those sticks must be, what time of the day and year to check the shadow and where and how to place the maps. Now that you and Polzer are on common ground, you can "put aside these childish things". I am of course speaking of the Stone Maps and that, of course, is a quote from Elmer Gantry. :lol: You may as well keep posting on this topic, or I will be forced to mention Bobbies Horse and carrot daily, and credit the comment to my friend, S.C. :)
Joe
señor x
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Post by señor x »

A while back during this discussion of the stone map - are they real or fake, I posed a question about whether there were other examples of similar stone maps that used the same format and were used in the same time frames.

At the time, someone replied that stone was used as a permanent way of documention of important things, usual government records. Also was not just used in Spain or Mexico, but in many cultures, for example the egyptians.

A follow up on that thought that I didn't get aound to voicing: when I think of government documents in general, whether on stone or not, the style always seems to be similar. That is, neat orderly rows of letters/symbols. Even if encoded, they use a consistent, government approved system.

So again, to me the stone maps don't look real because they are a hodge-podge of different symbols, drawings, holes, etc. And instead of neat-orderly rows, they run in random directions. So to me, it does look like someone just put down a random set of names and drawings that legends associated with the LDM - priests, Peralta, etc. ANd then overlaid it random numbers, symbols, lines, holes, etc.

To me it doesn't look like a document whose format would be proscribed by any government/church agency. So again, does anyone know of similar stone maps whose background is known and has the same look/layout as the stone maps?
Joe Ribaudo
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Accepted View

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

senor x,
That seems to be the generally accepted view of the Stone Maps by some very knowledgable forum members. The Stone Maps are not a list of sundry items, nor a historical record inscribed by a monk or scribe. Those types of documents would be laid out as you have mentioned. Are they random? Many think so; and they could, of course, be correct. We also have the Bilbrey Crosses, which can't be dated or authenticated. Are the symbols on these crosses also random? Into this mix we now throw the designs at Twin Buttes. Unfortunately, for the naysayers of the above mentioned items, these can be and probably were dated to a fairly fixed time in history. I should be able to confirm that information early next week. I will share everything I am being told (now) with the forum. I am sure they will be dismissed as having nothing to do with the Superstition Mountains and will probably just be pointing out a hidden cache of water and tortillas, to be used on the return trip home of Mexicans looking for work.

charlie,
Why no interest in my pictures? Just send me your e-mail address and I will send them to you, no charge of course. :)

Joe
charlie
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The Heart

Post by charlie »

Joe,

Do you have access to the stone maps?

I was curious at what appears to be holes or cavities in the maps. Since someone commented about Chuck saying to rotate the heart until two "x"s overlap to create one, how should the rotation be done.

Just off the top of my head - place a stick in the hole and rotate the heart on the stick axis and see if the "x"s line up. What is the appearance of the marked trail at that time?

I do not believe that the stone maps will lead to the LDM, but should lead to something of value because it is hidden. (A different Spanish mine?! :roll: )
Charlie
Joe Ribaudo
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Rotation

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Charlie,

I do not have access to the Stone Maps. The holes in the maps are important, but not for use as rotation points, although you may wish to do that. :) You should always remain cognizant of the fact that the maps could be fake. Most knowledgeable Dutch Hunters think that is the case. They will indeed lead you to a specific place or places in the Superstition Mountains. That area is up for grabs as to location in the range, at this time. Some will tell you they lead to an area north of the Salt River. Others believe they do not even pertain to Arizona. The really fun part of this little mystery is seeing where they will lead you. When you arrive at that location, you may only find a can with a note inside that reads, "Congratulations! No mine, no cache, no treasure and no kidding."
I can tell you this much: they do lead to an area that has been and, I believe, still is watched by certain members of Peter's Papago.

Joe
charlie
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Post by charlie »

Joe,

Just looking at something in another perspective.

I do not believe in the stone maps, but I could be wrong. :wink:
Charlie
Joe Ribaudo
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I Know

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Charlie,
I know you don't. Every post deserves a reply. :) Make that almost every post. No need to reply to this one.
Joe
azmula
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Stone Map Authenticity

Post by azmula »

Joe,
Some new revelations for your consideration. The maps are definitely real (including Bobbi's horse). They were generated in 1766 +/- 6months. The area is in the SM's, but not sacred to anyone (Peter, Please note). I have a name and an image, photo of a painting, of the author. The location of the early storage of the maps is known, not along the trail in Arizona. The maps identify the mine locations but more important the location of a billion dollar cache of gold, silver, and gems that was held back from the King of Spain. We continue to get closer. This will be the year!!!

azmula
Joe Ribaudo
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New Stuff

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

azmula,
It's always nice to see people come up with new stuff. I hope you do find it this year. I assume you have more evidence than the name and picture of the author of the maps. It seems to me the Brady cave might have had silver and gold ingots inside. Have to ask Tracy, as he is more familiar with the story. First I have heard of gems.
Joe
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Stone Maps

Post by azmula »

Has anyone found any information about a Jesuit Priest by the name of Father Carlos Rojas? He was the Local Visitor in the Pimeria Alta church chains.

azmula
charlie
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More Info...

Post by charlie »

Father Carlos Rojas? What years? Current or past? I have a copy of the 400 year history of Tubac, Arizona which lists several Jesuits that passed through the area.

That document is available on the net. It gives a great perspective on the development of Arizona through the arrival of the Anglos.
Charlie
azmula
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Post by azmula »

Charlie,
Rojas was around the area approximately 1747 to 1767. Where can we find that information you said is available on the internet or is it a book for sale? I appreciate the help.

azmula
Joe Ribaudo
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The Good Padre

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

azmula,

Fascinating to see the sudden interest in Father Carlos Rojas. For those who do not know, he was the Arizpe, Sonora Missionary for thirty years. That fact alone brings suspicion of a possible Peralta connection. Although born in Mexico City in 1702, he was expelled with the rest of the Jesuits in 1767. He died in Spain in 1773. Many historical books mention Father Rojas, but he did not seem to be overly important or a pivotal figure in the history of the church. The Jesuits appointed inspectors to travel the missions with news and gossip from one region to another, bringing back important reports on conditions and problems. Father Rojas was appointed Visitador General in 1764. Due to illness, he did not inspect the missions of California until 1766, one year before the Jesuit expulsion. I will assume he has been brought up in this topic in an attempt to tie the Stone Maps to Padre Rojas and, by extension, the Church in Arizpe.
Could be. :) Seems like this would be in Aurum's bailiwick, or Peter's.

Joe
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Post by Aurum »

xx
Last edited by Aurum on Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Aurum
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correction

Post by Aurum »

xx
Last edited by Aurum on Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
charlie
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Post by charlie »

Azmula,

I am amazed at the responses by others. I have little to add. I found 18 documents on the net through Google and using the name in quoates with "Jesuit". Using the name dropped 18, 500 entries with many being modern people with the same name.

One of the links will lead you to the Southwest Library of Arizona and some on-line e-documents. I did locat what appears to be a photo of a stained glass window of "Roxas" (Row-Hass).

Locating the "400 year history" can be located through Google. Try the quoted phrase and "Tubac". The document is near 400 pages and you would be interested in only two or three Chapters. This document is in PFD format.

Good luck.
Charlie
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