The Stone Maps

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alan m
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Thank-you Joe
I need to post a correction to my last
It was the name "Jack" not Frank that Clarence Mitchell gave for Travis Tumlinson.
I should add some more info to my last also
My initial decoding of the tablets has led me to an old Spanish base camp, some photos I have previously posted. I have not read of any discoveries or reports of any base camp in the area of my discovery and must assume, perhaps prematurely, that it is a "New Site"
My last trip to the mountains was to conduct a complete survey of the site but rain and snow prevented it.
It will probably be in October before conditions are right try again.
I will continue to post as much information as it is safe to do so, (safe for the preservation of the site)

Mike
I do not doubt your evidence and I would bet that you may be right
however with that said, it does not address the illogic of the explaination presented by Clarence Mitchell as to the meaning of the 8-N-P found on the priest tablet.
only one of two possibilities exist
1 Travis Tumlinson told this explicitly to Clarence or
2 Clarence discovered the "Meaning" of it.
If you do not believe in the interpretation as I don't then it must mean that Clarence or Travis made it up.

I may not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it
Best Regards
Alan
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Alan

I absolutely do not believe that 8-N-P means eight paces north!

I think it is possible that the "P" means pLaces. Eight North Places. Maybe! LOL

The theory I am currently looking closely at is that the Horse/Priest Stone along with the Heart Insert (and possibly the Latin Heart) were meant to be kept at some distant location (Arispe?). The H/P Stone is actually a Table of Contents. One side tells you (if you know how to read it) what is hidden (horse side), and the priest side tells you how to find the map stones, which will guide you to the final destination.

I also am of the impression that they are Jesuit in origin. I say that because they are the only ones that would have needed to hide their maps for many years before they would be recovered. The Jesuit Order was reinstated in 1814, which left them many years to recover the loot, dump the stones, leaving Travis to find them, and them be over a hundred years old in the late 1960s.

And from reading the Hainers' Letters to Bernice McGee, it might also explain why things were found in places (like a Spanish Pack Saddle), but no loot.

Best-Mike
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Mike wrote
I also am of the impression that they are Jesuit in origin. I say that because they are the only ones that would have needed to hide their maps for many years before they would be recovered. The Jesuit Order was reinstated in 1814, which left them many years to recover the loot, dump the stones, leaving Travis to find them, and them be over a hundred years old in the late 1960s.
Do you rule out a Franciscan origin? Remember that they too, were ordered out of Mexico only at a later date <1824> and are associated with silver mining though perhaps not on the same level as the Jesuits. If you do rule out a Franciscan origin, may I ask your reasons? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

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Roy,

When the Spanish Franciscans left Mexico in 1824, they were not arrested nor were they suppressed. They left of their own accord, because of the secularization of the country under Mexican Rule. They packed their bags and went to Europe. The Franciscan Order DID NOT leave Mexico. It was a few years until their neophytes finished their schooling and took over the Mexican Missions. They could have just made hide/parchment maps and kept them or took them to Europe. No need for stone maps.

(one more time) The Jesuits saw what happened in first Portugal, and then France. They knew that when they were arrested, they would be able to keep little other than the shirts on their backs. If they tried to carry maps, they would have been caught, and the maps to their valuables confiscated. The ONLY safe thing to do would be to hide their wealth, make maps of a material that would not drastically deteriorate over the course of many years (stone maps?).

I still think that it is very likely that whatever the maps led to was recovered sometime between 1814 (when the Jesuits were restored) and whenever. The now useless stone maps were then dumped on the way back to Mexico.

Best-Mike

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Oroblanco
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Hi Mike, <and everyone who reads this>
This is a long reply, so I must beg your indulgence.
Perhaps I should have specified "out of Arizona" rather than Mexico. Perhaps also, you are giving the Franciscan origin short shrift, unfairly? For one instance, remember that the Franciscans being ordered out, involved a complete surrender of all properties to the civil authorities, as all mission properties were "secularized" by order of the government. Is it so far-fetched to think that at least some of the padres might resent such a wholesale seizure of hard-won assets, and wish to protect them from government seizure? I could give a parallel analogy by saying suppose the Feds decided to seize your own church property, can you imagine how that would be received by the pastor?

Some of the old silver mines you will recall were re-discovered and operated by Franciscans; some of that silver went into costly decorations for the mission churches. Yet when the missions were taken over by the secular authorities, they were found to be in extreme poverty. Look at the history of the two "experimental" Franciscan missions which were founded on the Colorado river, in their short existence the padres put the natives to work mining placer gold and were later slaughtered in the rebellion; it is recorded by a historian of the Franciscans that the native people tell us, that Mexicans later came to the old mission sites and dug up sacks of gold. So there are reasons to suspect that Franciscan padres would hide treasures, and by extension the mines which produced them.

We could also note that 1847 date on the stone maps, is much closer to the Franciscans time than to the Jesuits, and the first (known) instance of Jesuits returning to Arizona dates to 1864 so we can't prove there were Jesuits present around '47. Also we do not see any specific marking on the stone maps that is absolutely and unambiguously Jesuit and not Franciscan, or for that matter just plain Catholic.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasons, I have to respectfully say that while they are logical, I can't rule out the Franciscans at this point as the originators of the stone maps. In fact I think the evidence (such as we have) 'needle' points more likely to Franciscans than the Jesuits even though their departure was more dramatic.
Roy
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

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Roy,

I agree that we can't rule out the Franciscans. The Spanish Franciscans were the only ones that left. Once the neophytes finished their schooling, the Mexican Franciscans were in full effect.

I stay with the Jesuits strictly because they easily knew what was coming. They knew, based on other expulsions, they could not carry any maps with them once arrested. They were world leaders in both Cartography and Cryptography. Another thing that came to mind is that the German Jesuits would have likely learned Spanish phonetically. That would explain the misspelled words on the stone maps.

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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Hola amigo Mike (and everyone)

One more point on the Franciscan possibility; the stone maps would not be something created in a matter of minutes. Hence, if the 'roundup' of Jesuits were truly like the sting operation as they would have us believe today, they may well have not had time or opportunity to create stone maps. <Assuming they paid zero attention to what was going on world-wide since the mid 1750's> Conversely, the Franciscans were not ordered to drop everything and leave instantly, they were allowed plenty of time to settle affairs and leave rather on their own accord. They would have had time to create stone maps and conceal about anything they desired to, with no Spanish soldiers standing behind them. The fact that ALL mission properties were going to be seized by govt is a good motive to conceal mines and treasures, for those assets were not going to serve the Church if seized.

Remember, early Anglos who visited the San Xavier mission in Bac (AZ) reported a solid silver altar with some $20,000 in silver in it, and it had been in the care of Franciscans last. Yet there is NO mention of this mass of silver in the Franciscan inventory on their takeover of the mission from the Jesuits, nor is there any mention of it in the secular authority inventory on the seizure and sale of all mission properties by govt. Where was that silver?

I don't know that it makes a big difference between a Jesuit origin or Franciscan, the end results are the same, just an interesting tidbit to track down.
Roy
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alan m
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello Mike
We agree!
The 8-N-P could mean places,such as markers of something else.
I have focused a lot of attention to the horse/priest tablet and think that it could have been cut to fit into something like a crypt or monument, the angle cuts and the tappering is most unusual.
The 1847 date, if it is one, causes some considerable problems in that there was a whole heck of a lot going on at that time, Santa Fe was part of Texas in 1847 and was "captured by Kearny in March of that year, if my memory is correct.
Clarence Mitchell put a lot of stock into the interpretation of the 8-N-P in his book, I am of the opinion that he made it up.
As for the Fransiscan's I can only say that I have not found any reference to gold, silver or church treasures in any of the few writings I have been able to study.
The Jesuits were involved in all matters of state including financial, but the Fransiscans seem to have ben devoted to poverty.
Allways a pleasure to correspond
Best Regards
Alan
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

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Roy,

You seem to keep leaving out a key part of the Jesuit story that I refer to constantly;

Namely the fact that the Jesuits HAD to have known what was coming. It happened first in all of Portugals's Territories in 1759, then in all of France's Territories in 1764. They had at least three years, and as many as eight years warning as to what was coming.

At the very least, when Jesuits were arrested during Spanish Riots in 1766 while giving money to the rioters, they had a years notice. Don't sell them short. They absolutely knew what was coming.

Best-Mike
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

I not so certain that the Jesuits HAD to know what was coming. Many of them seemed in total shock when the order came. As I recall, one of them went mad when the order was read........or something like that.

I would have to agree that many of them suspected something was coming, but there is no evidence in the contemporaneous writings of that era to support any preparations for the expulsion.

Could you name, specifically, which missionaries and missions you believe hid treasures in the three years or so before the expulsion? Can you quote any historical Jesuit documents that show an unusual change in their day to day activities which might portend knowledge of what was coming?

Thanks,

Joe
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

http://1oro1.com/jesuits/expulsion.html

"Pope Benedict XIV, in 1741, issues a Papal Bull that effectively disowns the Order of Jesus....
25-26 June 1767, every Jesuit was to be arrested and marched to ports to be shipped... "

do the math...26 years of exclusion and the authorities just snuck up on them huh?
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,
All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well.
Juan Nentvig, S.J., Rudo Ensayo pg.109

Not one of those statues was recovered after the expulsion.

"One of them went mad"

Could it be just good acting? Maybe a case that he refused to believe it was coming? Who knows. Who knows who did and did not know? Everything is supposition without documentation. I only rely on common sense and what I know for a fact about the Jesuit Order. With all their intelligence and worldwide presence there is not ANY good reason to think that they did not have AT LEAST one year of forewarning (when Spanish Jesuits were arrested handing out money to the rioters during the 1766 Spanish Rebellion).

Best-Mike
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Pip,

"Do the math...26 years of exclusion and the authorities just Snuck up on them huh?"

There are many people in this world who live their lives in denial. It's possible that the Jesuits in Mexico just couldn't believe it would happen to them. They had so much power and the backing of influential people that they believed they were bullet proof. In the end, none of that worked out in their favor.

Not saying they had no inkling, just that they wouldn't believe it. Is that so hard to believe?

If they had a treasure to hide, no doubt they had time to do it. If they had no treasure, they simply waited for the axe to fall. It's all about the treasure, or lack thereof.

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Re: The Stone Maps

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Joe,

I meant denial on an individual basis, not as a group.

There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that the Jesuits knew what was coming. If you read Jesuit History, you will see that the Order was at odds with Charles III as long as he had been King of Spain.

It all started from the time Charles III declared his backing of the Enlightened Movement in the Catholic Church. This was a reformation that wanted a 180 degree change from the strict ideology of the more militant Inquisitions.

Since the Jesuits were founded as soldiers of Christ, beholding first and only to the Pope, they considered the Enlightenment as a watered down form of Christianity. They therefore supported the Inquisitions. This put them directly at odds with Charles III. For many years, the Jesuits in Spain had been talking smack about Charles. They spread rumors that he was not the legitimate king.

After the Suppression began, he held several private meetings with different people whom he felt he owed an explanation. One of those meetings was with the Marquis d'Ossun of Frnace. In a letter from the Marquis to the Court of Louis XVI, the Marquis summed up the private audience:
He swore that he had no personal feelings against the Jesuits, and until the most recent plot, had declined on several occasions to adopt counsels adverse to their interests. He had in this way disregarded the warnings of faithful servants, who had told him how, since 1759 the Religious had not ceased to revile his Government, defame his character, and even to question the sincerity of his religious faith; and had replied (to these faithful servants) that he believed them to be predjudiced and misinformed. The insurrection of 1766 had, however, openeed his eyes, for he was certain that the Jesuits had fomented it, and had proofs that it was so, since several members of the Society had been arrested while distributing money to groups (of rioters)...............................
.......... and Joe, to answer your question .... YES it is absolutely hard for me to believe the Jesuits didn't know EXACTLY what was coming.

Best-Mike
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Sorry, that letter from d'Ossun was to Louis XV not Louis XVI.

Mike
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Re: The Stone Maps

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As a quick sideline, PWP mentioned the Papal Bull of 1741 by Pope Benedict XIV. Here are the Cliff Notes of that Bull:
In administrative matters, Benedict established a formal college of consistorial advocates, as he had once been, designed to provide advice to the pontiff. One of his more lasting achievements, however, was to end a controversial practice of the Jesuit missionaries in South America. There they had established reducciones, or reductions, which were settlements established for the local Native Americans in order to convert them to a Christianized, European way of life. They were often sites of cruelty, which led to uprisings and martyrdoms of the Jesuit priests. Benedict's Immensa pastorum principis disbanded these in Paraguay and Argentina.
I include this because history revisionists have (since 1751) argued the reasons for the Pima Uprising of 1751. The testimony of the Indios states quite clearly that the Jesuits treatment of them was the cause of the rebellion. The Jesuits argued against that, and due to their influence and power were declared innocent of the charges of the Indios. Seems like "Immensa Pastorum Principis" contradicts the Jesuits and agrees with the statements of the Indios.

Best-Mike
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

[I include this because history revisionists have (since 1751) argued the reasons for the Pima Uprising of 1751. The testimony of the Indios states quite clearly that the Jesuits treatment of them was the cause of the rebellion. The Jesuits argued against that, and due to their influence and power were declared innocent of the charges of the Indios. Seems like "Immensa Pastorum Principis" contradicts the Jesuits and agrees with the statements of the Indios.]

Can you refresh my memory for the source of that statement? It will make it a little easier for me to look it up when I get home.

Thanks,

Joe
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

As I recall that bit of history, it was Governor Parrilla who first leveled those charges against the Jesuits. Over 100 people were killed by the Pima in that uprising. The leader was looking for anyone to blame for those deaths.......other than himself.

Have you looked into the history of Parrilla and the Jesuits?

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello to all
According to Nentvig, no one was aware of what was comming, the Jesuits were told to meet at Matape by the porvincial, or some other Jesuit of ranking authority.
If any of the Jesuit order saw the arrest comming it woud have been those in the higher ranks who were isolated and did not have to bear the burden of arrest.
What all of the Jesuit order did not know was what the arrest was about nor how severe it would turn out to be.
Refference; Pefferkorn and Och.

Alan
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

As a continuance of my previous post
The instigator of the 1751 Pima Rebellion was Luis Oacpicagigua, he along with few other supporters gatherd together to drive the Jesuits out of the Pimaria Alta.
The reason was the Jesuit suppression of the Pima native dances and festivals, as well as thier long standing practice of poligamy, all obviously pagan, which the Jesuits had forbidden.
His success is purely a result of his position as the Spanish appointed captain general of the Northern O'odam which are the Pimas.
The rebellion had nothing to do with the Indians work in the mines, which all records indicate the Jesuits were firmly apposed to.
One of the reasons that progress is slow in understanding the relationship between the Jesuits, minning and the Indians is that whenever there is talk of Jesuit treasure it is assummed that there must also have been Jesuit sanctioned Indian slaves.
If the Indians ever brought any gold to the Jesuits, it would have been of thier own free will.
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Alan
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Re: The Stone Maps

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First,

There is a concept here that we need to keep in mind. While I firmly believe the Jesuits knew what was coming, I don't believe they knew exactly when it would happen.

Sort of like what we knew prior to Sept. 11, 2001. We knew through intelligence that Al Qaeda was planning on crashing commercial aircraft into buildings in the United States. We just didn't know exactly where or when. There is a difference between "actionable" and regular intelligence.

After the Jesuits arrest in Mexico, a Dominican Father Francisco Leon gave a speech to try and pacify the populace. A part of his speech went:
........ They will be well settled, cared for, and splendidly fed for the rest of their lives. The King will grant them handsome pensions, and they will live in the Papal States. The Jesuits have known for quite a while that their intrigues could not be continued much longer. Their intentions were discovered. To anticipate their misfortune which would sooner or later overtake them, they have provided for themselves. All of their estates have long been sold and transferred into astonishing sums of money. This money, many millions, they have already sent overseas and placed in safety. Their accounts lie as credit in Rome, Genoa, Amsterdam, and London, perhaps by the hundreds ...........
Joe,

As far as the testimonies of the Pimas, I don't have the book with me, but they are easily found. Since you have a copy of "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuits Missions of Northwestern New Spain", I am sure you can find what types of beatings of the Indios were permitted by Ecclesiastical Precept. Are you saying that you think Indian mistreatment occurred only in Argentina and Paraguay? I doubt you are that naive.

Best-Mike
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Mike wrote
Roy,

You seem to keep leaving out a key part of the Jesuit story that I refer to constantly;

Namely the fact that the Jesuits HAD to have known what was coming.
Perhaps you missed a part of my previous post, I was not leaving that part out of the Jesuit story;

Hence, if the 'roundup' of Jesuits were truly like the sting operation as they would have us believe today, they may well have not had time or opportunity to create stone maps. <Assuming they paid zero attention to what was going on world-wide since the mid 1750's>
<see earlier post, http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 80f#p21302>

I am sure that some padres at various scattered missions were caught somewhat unawares by the roundup, but the Provincials and higher ranks certainly had more than enough inkling to know something was coming down. My point was that IF the Jesuits in Arizona were really caught unawares, they would not have had opportunity to be creating stone maps much less burying treasures and concealing mines. The Franciscan departure was quite different and would allow for far more opportunity to conceal mines, treasures make the necessary maps etc with no soldiers watching over their shoulders, so to speak.

I don't rule the Jesuits OUT as the creator-originators of the stone maps, only showing that another good possibility exists (besides the one of being the work of a modern hoaxer or something to help Reavis in his land grant fraud).
Roy
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

when cortex hit the beach at vera cruz...disease and news of the spanish arrival traveled 50-100 years ahead of the spanish themselves.
a hundred an some odd years later...news did not travel at all?
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

[After the Jesuits arrest in Mexico, a Dominican Father Francisco Leon gave a speech to try and pacify the populace. A part of his speech went:


Quote:
........ They will be well settled, cared for, and splendidly fed for the rest of their lives. The King will grant them handsome pensions, and they will live in the Papal States. The Jesuits have known for quite a while that their intrigues could not be continued much longer. Their intentions were discovered. To anticipate their misfortune which would sooner or later overtake them, they have provided for themselves. All of their estates have long been sold and transferred into astonishing sums of money. This money, many millions, they have already sent overseas and placed in safety. Their accounts lie as credit in Rome, Genoa, Amsterdam, and London, perhaps by the hundreds ...........]

I just deleted what my initial response to this post was. Are you kidding?

Joe
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,

[After the Jesuits arrest in Mexico, a Dominican Father Francisco Leon gave a speech to try and pacify the populace. A part of his speech went:


Quote:
........ They will be well settled, cared for, and splendidly fed for the rest of their lives. The King will grant them handsome pensions, and they will live in the Papal States. The Jesuits have known for quite a while that their intrigues could not be continued much longer. Their intentions were discovered. To anticipate their misfortune which would sooner or later overtake them, they have provided for themselves. All of their estates have long been sold and transferred into astonishing sums of money. This money, many millions, they have already sent overseas and placed in safety. Their accounts lie as credit in Rome, Genoa, Amsterdam, and London, perhaps by the hundreds ...........]

I just deleted what my initial response to this post was. Are you kidding?

Joe
Joe,

Wow! Maybe you can answer the question why you got offended when I asked if you were smoking crack when you made a preposterous statement?

Before getting all smartass, you might want to reread Father Och's Journal. Namely pages 64 and 65. Wink wink

Best-Mike
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