The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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lazarus
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TC

Post by lazarus »

TC

I am aware of his writings.

I believe the difference in the two ranges would be quite apparent to a geologist, as the event that created the Supes was much more recent than the event that created the Salt River Mountains.


Laz
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Post by TC ASKEY »

You may be right. I'm no geologist. I only know
that quartz and sexstone look very similar.
lazarus
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TC

Post by lazarus »

TC,
I'm no geologist either, but for that matter, I think Ann Coulter and Skeletor look alike.

A decent prospector would benefit from a reasonable understanding of geology. Although it is generally accepted that Jacob was told by others about this location, I believe he had a pretty good grasp of things by this point.

From a geological aspect, the interior of the Superstition range should not produce large quantities of Gold. The Salt River Mountains, however, are a very different story.

Laz
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

Here's a tad more grist for the mill, so to speak.

Jacob mined during the winter months, so daylight was limited. He would spend the first night somewhere in the vicinity of Hayden's Ferry, a common spot to bed down in those days.

So where might that have put him by nightfall of day two?

Laz
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Eastward

Post by lazarus »

I must be bored...

The major applicable roads at the time would have been (in order) Broadway, Buckeye, Washington, and perhaps Van Buren. Broadway continued all the way to the foot of the Supes, whereas the other three intersected at the river near Hayden's Ferry. Today, the Mill Avenue Bridge sits near the old ferry landing. Of course, the bridge crosses the river, and one ends up on Apache, which runs just below Broadway.

There used to be an old Spanish mission along Buckeye road, in an area now occupied by the airport. I believe the structure is still standing, but it sits off by itself behind a chain link fence. That entire stretch of Buckeye road has been gone for decades.

Laz
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Mission

Post by lazarus »

All,

I located an old photo of the mission I mention above. Here's the link:

http://www.acmeron.com/puhs/Sky%20Harbor.jpg

Laz

Oh yikes! I have lured us off subject. Quick... someone mention the Stone Maps!

Laz
Joe Ribaudo
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Bells Are Ringing......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Nice picture of the old wedding chapel bell. That bell actually came from a Phoenix church, and not a mission. Been awhile since I have been to Sky Harbor. Is that little restaurant still at the bell's location?

Personally, I like this "mission" story better than the Salt River Mountains one.

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Post by TC ASKEY »

Lazarus,

Do you have a point to make here or just been rolling
your own again today?
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TC

Post by lazarus »

Terry,

the 'rolling' remark wasn't very clever, or accurate. You might wish to curb the dumb remarks, unless of course, you want me to think you're an idiot.

If you are really serious about learning where Jacob was going, you might want to follow his footsteps. By learning the distance he was able to cover during a single day, one can easily arrive at a reasonable maximum distance, eliminating everything that falls outside our determined range.

Jacob walked two days eastward, then turned and walked a half a day northward. That alone narrows down the possibilities.

As Jake might ask...
are you following me?


Laz
Joe Ribaudo
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Bad Vibes.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry and Brad,

The quickest way for us to get slapped by the webmaster, would be to continue down this path. We can post our "feelings" in the First Amendment or Boxing Forums.

Let's not continue the agenda to destroy this site.

Thanks,

Joe
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Post by TC ASKEY »

Lazarus,

You lost me when you went from Waltz's to the Hayden Ferry and then back to the mission at the airport. You don't need to be very clever when
you deal with that kind of mind set.

Be sure to let me know when you find something that shines in the
sunlight besides chrome. I would like to see it.

Terry
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I'm still waiting for you to venture a guess as to where Dos Buttes is actually located.

Jacob awakes on day two well before sunrise, and heads eastward. He is traveling along either Broadway or Apache, (the answer clarifies which).
How far can he travel by nightfall?

Remember, he starts the day somewhere near Hayden's Ferry. How far can he travel by dark?

Laz
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TC

Post by lazarus »

Terry,

I'll accept that explanation. I should have qualified the chapel as a side-note, which I did not. However, through my research, I have learned that chapels such as this played a major roll in a whole heck of a lot more than folklore. In fact, the Chapel of San Miguel (Santa Fe, New Mexico), believed to be the oldest in the United States, has asked me to research the history of the structure, with special attention toward the chapel bell.

This is a biggie, and may be hard to swallow, but it all ties in with the Stone Maps. The bells were all hand made, and therefor, each is as unique as a fingerprint. It's hard for me to think about traveling eastward on that old stretch of Buckeye Road without thinking about that bell hanging in the old chapel.

Laz
Joe Ribaudo
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Guessing.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Sorry, I was still working on the "mission" picture.

I assume the first things I would need to establish, are: Was Waltz on horseback or walking? If he was walking, did he walk all the way, or did he hitch a ride with a wagon going east?

There are other questions which come into play with your theory, but I have no intention of trying to place the Stone Maps in your "new" area. Too old to start over, especially with what I know to be true.

There are many others out there with theories that are just as good as yours. More than a few have written books on their conclusions. All of them have reasonable reasons for their locations.

Good luck with yours,

Joe Ribaudo
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Wedding Bells.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

The wedding chapel in question was built around 1937 because Arizona did not have a waiting period to get married. That was the reason for building it at the airport.

The bell was quit old at the time, but never hung in a mission. It came from a local Phoenix church. It's quite possible that Waltz heard or saw that bell at some point in his life, but not at its present location.

The bell in your picture was made around 1837.

Joe Ribaudo
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

that's great stuff, as that is one bell I never got to see up close. See how the bell is suspended by a rope wrapped around the post. That tells a great deal about the maker of the bell.

I could tell the surrounding buildings weren't original, but the front facade looks quite reasonable. Bells could of course, be purchased...
but not those bells.

Brad
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Bellls

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

if you mean the bell in Mexico, you are correct about the approximate time period. Note however, the very different gamble assembly. The bell in Mexico
is a nicely crafted piece of art. The bell in the airport photo was fashioned from an upside down, hollowed out tree stump, poured on location or somewhere very nearby.

The runway in the photo sits right on top of what had been been Buckeye Road. How odd they would put the chapel facade right along the runway sitting where the road used to be 8O

Laz
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Walking

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

By this time frame, Jacob walked mostly, but not exclusively. I have never heard any stories of him catching a ride out of town.

By the way...
judging by your answer, I can tell you didn't locate the buttes. Remember, when Jake wakes in the morning, he can see the buttes to the east of him, but usually follows the wash northward. Other times, he continues eastward, past the buttes, until reaching a second wash, also green, and sometimes with water.

We have not one piece of evidence suggesting Jacob could have realistically taken any other eastward route, as all go east. It defies logic to have this old feller and his loaded down mules traveling great distances through rough terrain in relatively short periods of time. It isn't what Jacob implied, and it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

He traveled along a well established trail until he reached the wash west of the buttes. The wash he describes is massive, and is oft traveled. There are trees and water, and another butte a mile or so north, from which he can now clearly see the buttes to the south. This butte prominently features a horse shaped rock, and thus the name. Jacob often stopped here to rest. He was about to push into the mountains.

Don't even bother asking about my sources. I have not a clue. I read a bunch of this stuff when I was a kid.


Laz
Joe Ribaudo
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Sources

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

The problem, for me, is that you are being very specific in your scenario.
So many details without sources makes the entire thing.....your story. While there is nothing wrong with that, it will not carry the same weight as, say....Bark's story using Julia and Rhiney as his source.

Both of those people told him that Waltz said his mine was in the "Superstition Mountains". What you have failed to clarify, is that the Salt River Mountains and the Superstition Mountains were the same thing back then.

You said:

"if you mean the bell in Mexico, you are correct about the approximate time period."

I said:

"The wedding chapel in question was built around 1937 because Arizona did not have a waiting period to get married. That was the reason for building it at the airport.

The bell was quit old at the time, but never hung in a mission. It came from a local Phoenix church. It's quite possible that Waltz heard or saw that bell at some point in his life, but not at its present location.

The bell in your picture was made around 1837."

I don't believe I ever addressed your "bell in Mexico".

"I could tell the surrounding buildings weren't original, but the front facade looks quite reasonable. Bells could of course, be purchased...
but not those bells."

While it may look "quite reasonable", it was constructed in 1937. At that time, the bell they placed in the structure was 100 years old. How do you know the bell.....not bells, could not be purchased. Are you drifting between Mexico and Sky Harbor?

There is nothing unique in being wrong. We all are at some time. In this case, your "old Spanish mission" is a wedding chapel built in 1937. Other than as an interesting bit of Phoenix history, it's not really worth more than a few words.

What will be more important, is how you handle the mistake.

Since you have not seen the chapel bell up close, I would be interested in hearing how you know that "The bell in the airport photo was fashioned from an upside down, hollowed out tree stump, poured on location or somewhere very nearby."

As I understand what you have written, you didn't actually know how old that bell was until I mentioned it.

It may be that the Stone Maps have something to do with mission bells, somewhere, but that seems an iffy proposition.

Joe Ribaudo
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I did not follow you. I could tell the bell in the photo was from that time period, but for some reason, I thought you had referenced a different bell.

I still find it odd that a bell of that nature would wind up hanging in a facade along a runway. I would like to learn what sat in that location prior to the airport.

For some reason, I thought you had referenced the bell featured in my photo archive, hanging in La Mision, Mexico. (Every Picture Tells A Story).The two bells are very different. The bell at the airport is consistent with old Spanish mission bells, whereas, the La Mision bell is much more sophisticated.

According to Glovers book, Jacob pointed eastward and stated: "Over there, in the Salt River Mountains". Obviously it was Jake that was confused... not us. We know what he really meant to say was "Way far off on the God forsaken dark side of the moon, a few miles east of Florence."

Not!


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Bells

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

it turns out bells are much like cars. Once you become familiar with the various styles, you can pick out a specific type from some distance. An old Corvette looks quite different from an old VW, and one can easily tell the two apart.


The same with bells.

For a facade such as you describe, I am astonished by their dead on choice of bells. Quite a find! Quite a find, indeed!

Laz
Joe Ribaudo
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Das Bell

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

The picture of the bell at Sky Harbor Mission is almost impossible to enlarge to the point where I can tell anything about it. Must be these old eyes. The general shape is about all I can see.

"that's great stuff, as that is one bell I never got to see up close. See how the bell is suspended by a rope wrapped around the post. That tells a great deal about the maker of the bell."

I can't tell what the bell is suspended by, so it could very well be a rope.

Joe Ribaudo
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Bells

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I agree that when blown up large enough, the photo breaks up pretty bad.
It could just as easily be a top hat suspended by kite string...

Still, there are several aspects of the bell that stand out. It's size and shape, the type of suspension, no gamble.

Obviously I have no way to be certain, but I'd venture the clapper was attached to a rope that passed through a small, off center hole in the top of the bell.

The bell is then suspended by a separate rope tied around the crown of the bell, and then looped several times around a horizontal post resting between two support beams.

I am aware you think I'm bonkers, and I'm okay with that. Still, those bells are specific to Spanish chapels. if you check out my photo of the bell at La Mision, you'll notice the extreme difference right away.

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... hapel_Bell

Laz
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More Bells....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

"that's great stuff, as that is one bell I never got to see up close. See how the bell is suspended by a rope wrapped around the post. That tells a great deal about the maker of the bell."

Many bells were hung by ropes. What does that tell you about the maker?
Were mission bells only hung in the manner shown in your picture? From a distance, they all look the same to me. :?

How does any of this relate to the Stone Maps?

Joe Ribaudo
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Bells

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I understand where you are coming from, but rest assured, not all bells are alike. Some bells were produced in a foundry... others were not.

Bells like the one in the airport photo were produced in a quite different manner. It's a very simple, unscientific bell.

Again, you might wish to compare that bell to others, such as the one in my photo archive. They are nothing alike. I suppose I could write an article on the subject and create a new photo archive dedicated to bells, but we shall see.

As for the maps, with all due respect, if you actually knew how to read them, you would understand why I think the bells are so important.

Regards,
Lazarus
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