The Stone Maps
Ya Ho, LDMers Hunters, Researchers,treasure seekers, I knowers, and all Serious adventureous souls... I will make one offer to all of YOU and this will be the only opportunity YOU will have to SEE for YOURSELF what the Stone maps Lead YOU Too. Are YOU ready???? I will give YOU an opportunity that most Really Serious Seekers of the truth of these mysterious and Interesting stone maps would love to go and see for them selves.... All of YOU who would like to see my findings must REPY ASAP>.. Are YOU able to take a Hike?? Will YOU sign A non-disclosure Agreement? Would YOU really like to SEE what All of YOU are interested in..???? Please reply ASAP! Only SERIOUS LDMers and honest people will be accepted.I CHALLEGE ALL of YOU on The Lost Dutchman Goldmine Forum to answer this Challege... I will be waiting to hear from ALL of YOU.... Thank YOU for your attention to this Challege...
Aurum,
I'm going to quit telling you anything. In your ears and out your finger tips.
Tracy/Heidi,
That is the story as related by Aurum. Except there is some documentation to back it up. Now maybe you understand why we are trying to determine the origin of the Maps, not to the Peraltas or Gonzales Families but to the church. And More.
azmula
I'm going to quit telling you anything. In your ears and out your finger tips.
Tracy/Heidi,
That is the story as related by Aurum. Except there is some documentation to back it up. Now maybe you understand why we are trying to determine the origin of the Maps, not to the Peraltas or Gonzales Families but to the church. And More.
azmula
Where the stone maps were found and who found them is a good question. There are several versions for each. Bob Ward seems to have had at least two himself. Compare “a spot east of highway60 between Apache Junction and Florence Jct by an iron bridge” with the location Bob told others on page 336 of Glover’s book. They do not match.
Tumlinson said he was traveling between Florence Junction and Apache Junction and stopped at a rest stop right along Queen Creek That he took a walk and found the maps. It is a fact that since Tumlinson’s time and today that area has changed a great deal. Not only was the highway widened, the bridge was widened and of the rest area there is no longer any trace (that I can find). But, I have talked with an old timer who confirms it was there.
Several years ago if you went to the spot where the stone maps were said to have been dug up there was a depression with a well-established mesquite tree growing in it. The story is that after the initial find Tumlinson and a friend went back and dug up the area looking for more stone maps. They found none. Then a friend of Tumlinson’s friend heard about it and went back and did his own digging. If this is true then a good-sized dug up area should have resulted. I cannot say where the maps were found, but when I first saw the area they were reported to have been found there was the remains of a considerable dug up area, and by the size of the mesquite tree that area had been dug many years ago. I went back to the area a couple of years ago and it is hardly recognizable any more. It would be interesting to know when the highway was widened which way it was widened.
Tumlinson said he was traveling between Florence Junction and Apache Junction and stopped at a rest stop right along Queen Creek That he took a walk and found the maps. It is a fact that since Tumlinson’s time and today that area has changed a great deal. Not only was the highway widened, the bridge was widened and of the rest area there is no longer any trace (that I can find). But, I have talked with an old timer who confirms it was there.
Several years ago if you went to the spot where the stone maps were said to have been dug up there was a depression with a well-established mesquite tree growing in it. The story is that after the initial find Tumlinson and a friend went back and dug up the area looking for more stone maps. They found none. Then a friend of Tumlinson’s friend heard about it and went back and did his own digging. If this is true then a good-sized dug up area should have resulted. I cannot say where the maps were found, but when I first saw the area they were reported to have been found there was the remains of a considerable dug up area, and by the size of the mesquite tree that area had been dug many years ago. I went back to the area a couple of years ago and it is hardly recognizable any more. It would be interesting to know when the highway was widened which way it was widened.
We received a private message from Mr. Ribaudo explaining his theory of how the stone maps and the Twin Buttes markings were connected and how they came into existance. He mentions the Peralta holdings in Arispe and an Apache encursion into that area around 1832. He ties that raid together with the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo as the reasons for the Peraltas taking one last trip into the Superstitions. He explained why the stone maps were made and why they were buried. I believe Mr. Hawkins may have received a similar message. We checked the 1832 date for the Apache encursion and found it was a big event in Mexico. I don't know if his theory is correct, but it explained a lot of things that we had, unasked,
questions about. In 1848 the church in Arispe would have been under the control of the Franciscans and he has tied the stone maps to the Jesuits in a convincing manner. In fact, if the Twin Buttes markings are the same as the carvings on the stone maps, because of the dating that Mr. Hawkins speaks of, it is very likely from the time of the Jesuits. If so, it is unlikely that the stone maps were stored in a Franciscan Church in the 1840s. Mr. Ribaudo explained the 1847 dates on the maps and at Twin Buttes and why they were both added at a much latter date then the other markings. I also received a private message from Lone Wolf. I don't understand what caused these two to leave the forum, but would like to see more input on this subject from both of them.
H
questions about. In 1848 the church in Arispe would have been under the control of the Franciscans and he has tied the stone maps to the Jesuits in a convincing manner. In fact, if the Twin Buttes markings are the same as the carvings on the stone maps, because of the dating that Mr. Hawkins speaks of, it is very likely from the time of the Jesuits. If so, it is unlikely that the stone maps were stored in a Franciscan Church in the 1840s. Mr. Ribaudo explained the 1847 dates on the maps and at Twin Buttes and why they were both added at a much latter date then the other markings. I also received a private message from Lone Wolf. I don't understand what caused these two to leave the forum, but would like to see more input on this subject from both of them.
H
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Tracy L Hawkins
- Part Timer
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm
- Location: Phoenix Az
Perhaps my grasp of history is a little fuzzy, but I beleive the big Apache raid against Arizpe took place in the 1848 time frame. It was a revenge raid for the slaughter of Apache women and children at Janos a short time before. It was very large by Apache standards, perhaps 200-300 warriors and involved many principal leaders...Cochise, Mangus the Elder, Juh and a young Bedonkohe war shaman who had lost his family at Janos named He Who Yawns.
The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo ended the Mexican War in 1848, ceding large tracts of land to the United States.
Am not quite sure where the 1832 date fits in, but what do I know.
The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo ended the Mexican War in 1848, ceding large tracts of land to the United States.
Am not quite sure where the 1832 date fits in, but what do I know.
My apologies for the double-post.
I just did some cross checking on dates and another source (Once They Moved Like The Wind by David Roberts pg 109) gives the date of the Janos Massacre as March 5, 1851. This would mean that the main attack on Arizpe occurred some months after that (at the soonest), as the Chiricahua retreated north, gathered their forces and then returned to attack Arizpe...described as "the largest town of consequence in the area".
This might throw off you folks theorizing a bit as to Peralta's dragging the Stone Maps up north in the 1848 time frame to protect em from rampaging Amerindians.
Good luck with the Stone Maps. I shouldnt get overly excited about them if I were you....but as they say in my business "two opinions make a market".
I just did some cross checking on dates and another source (Once They Moved Like The Wind by David Roberts pg 109) gives the date of the Janos Massacre as March 5, 1851. This would mean that the main attack on Arizpe occurred some months after that (at the soonest), as the Chiricahua retreated north, gathered their forces and then returned to attack Arizpe...described as "the largest town of consequence in the area".
This might throw off you folks theorizing a bit as to Peralta's dragging the Stone Maps up north in the 1848 time frame to protect em from rampaging Amerindians.
Good luck with the Stone Maps. I shouldnt get overly excited about them if I were you....but as they say in my business "two opinions make a market".
Peter,
Our source for the 1832 Apache encursion to Arispe, I think that is the correct spelling, was The Apache Indians, by Franck C Lockwood.
The Apaches terrorized Mexico for hundreds of years and were still doing so well into the nineteen hundreds. Your date is correct for the events you are talking about. They Moved Like The Wind, which is a reference to a short exchange between Geronimo and General Crook during his surrender in which Geronimo said "Once I moved about like the wind. Now I surrender to you and that is all." That was not all, as Geronimo was a big talker.
We were looking for events that would have occurred in an earlier time frame, and we had many to choose from. The time frame you suggest
(1848 to 1851) is to late for our purposes. I don't think the Peraltas were trying to protect the stone maps from the Indians. Where did you get such an idea? The stone maps would have looked like chicken scratches to an Apache and they would have paid them no attention at all.
The stone maps were probably completed prior to the eighteen hundreds and would have been buried at that time. Mr. Ribaudo's explanation of the 1847 dates which were not done at the time the stone maps were made, nor at the time that most of the markings at Twin Buttes were done,
makes a lot of sense. I fear I may have said more then I should have, concerning his statements to me. I was not thinking that I may have been breaching a trust. I expect he will let me know.
H
Our source for the 1832 Apache encursion to Arispe, I think that is the correct spelling, was The Apache Indians, by Franck C Lockwood.
The Apaches terrorized Mexico for hundreds of years and were still doing so well into the nineteen hundreds. Your date is correct for the events you are talking about. They Moved Like The Wind, which is a reference to a short exchange between Geronimo and General Crook during his surrender in which Geronimo said "Once I moved about like the wind. Now I surrender to you and that is all." That was not all, as Geronimo was a big talker.
We were looking for events that would have occurred in an earlier time frame, and we had many to choose from. The time frame you suggest
(1848 to 1851) is to late for our purposes. I don't think the Peraltas were trying to protect the stone maps from the Indians. Where did you get such an idea? The stone maps would have looked like chicken scratches to an Apache and they would have paid them no attention at all.
The stone maps were probably completed prior to the eighteen hundreds and would have been buried at that time. Mr. Ribaudo's explanation of the 1847 dates which were not done at the time the stone maps were made, nor at the time that most of the markings at Twin Buttes were done,
makes a lot of sense. I fear I may have said more then I should have, concerning his statements to me. I was not thinking that I may have been breaching a trust. I expect he will let me know.
H
Gentlemen,
You are confusing me. Arizpe is in the State of Coahuila, Mexico which is Southeast of Sonora where Arispe is located. The two are seperated by the State of Chihuahua.
Do you have some information connecting the Peraltas to Ramos Arizpe?
When looking for historical facts, using the wrong town in your research would make all the difference in the world. Dates and events that apply to one, would have no correlation to the other. This would throw your theorizing off considerably, not to mention mine.
H
You are confusing me. Arizpe is in the State of Coahuila, Mexico which is Southeast of Sonora where Arispe is located. The two are seperated by the State of Chihuahua.
Do you have some information connecting the Peraltas to Ramos Arizpe?
When looking for historical facts, using the wrong town in your research would make all the difference in the world. Dates and events that apply to one, would have no correlation to the other. This would throw your theorizing off considerably, not to mention mine.
H
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Puppy Notes
Peter,
Carolyn (my wife) and I discussed who would be the first to figure out who Heidi was. Heidi is our Miniature Schnauzer and being German seemed so appropriate. I told her it would be you. I was pretty sure my last post would be Heidi's Waterloo. Perhaps "your" in bold print was a little over the top.
I really had a great time with this subterfuge and hope no one's feelings are bruised. 
Aurum,
The Mexicans spell the towns of Arispe and Arizpe on their maps and in their literature in the above manner. If you are using your computer for research and spell Arizpe, Mexico, you will only get the town in Coahuila.
If you spell it Arispe, you will only get the town in Sonora. I am not saying you are wrong in your statement, but the Mexicans have separated the two towns in spelling. I knew you were talking about the Arispe in Sonora, but my pup did not have a clue.
You have all teased me back onto the forum with my favorite subject.
Thanks to the friends who encouraged me to return, including Peter. It was silly.
Joe
Carolyn (my wife) and I discussed who would be the first to figure out who Heidi was. Heidi is our Miniature Schnauzer and being German seemed so appropriate. I told her it would be you. I was pretty sure my last post would be Heidi's Waterloo. Perhaps "your" in bold print was a little over the top.
I really had a great time with this subterfuge and hope no one's feelings are bruised. Aurum,
The Mexicans spell the towns of Arispe and Arizpe on their maps and in their literature in the above manner. If you are using your computer for research and spell Arizpe, Mexico, you will only get the town in Coahuila.
If you spell it Arispe, you will only get the town in Sonora. I am not saying you are wrong in your statement, but the Mexicans have separated the two towns in spelling. I knew you were talking about the Arispe in Sonora, but my pup did not have a clue.
You have all teased me back onto the forum with my favorite subject.
Thanks to the friends who encouraged me to return, including Peter. It was silly.
Joe
If one were to check the maps drawn by Kino or Manje you would find Arizpe identified and correctly spelled per the Spanish. Even Bolton, Burris, and others who have recreated the maps of Pimeria Alta show Arizpe in its present location. I have researched and visited the areas of Arizpe, Cumpas, Ures, Hermosillo, etc and the Peralta/Gonzales influence was significant, even today. I have visited Arizpe and the pueblito is much the same as it appeared in the old sketches.
Heidi's SJ friend should have sigificant resources to confirm the above as well. It has been well documented in the Bancroft Library archives.
Aurum you have a good grasp of the history of the area, I'm impressed.
azmula
Heidi's SJ friend should have sigificant resources to confirm the above as well. It has been well documented in the Bancroft Library archives.
Aurum you have a good grasp of the history of the area, I'm impressed.
azmula
Joe...err I mean Heidi
Its difficult to cover ones tracks while writing. Thats why I dont bother.
Lots of folks flit on and off this forum with different handles and screen names, but I can almost always tell who's who after they have written a bit.
We are in the company of many distinguished and knowledgeable folks...
people who have put in thousands of man hours in the mountains and whose knowledge of the LDM compared to my own is like comparing Einstein to Bingo the Chimp....lol
P
Its difficult to cover ones tracks while writing. Thats why I dont bother.
Lots of folks flit on and off this forum with different handles and screen names, but I can almost always tell who's who after they have written a bit.
We are in the company of many distinguished and knowledgeable folks...
people who have put in thousands of man hours in the mountains and whose knowledge of the LDM compared to my own is like comparing Einstein to Bingo the Chimp....lol
P
Just to keep things straight: my map shows Monument Canyon as the first one on the south side from the west. Then comes an unnamed one that I believe Tom K. calls Flatiron Canyon, THEN comes Hog Canyon.Rosebud wrote:Tracy,
I agree it sort of depends on your perspective in looking at the mountains as to which is the first gorge on south side from the western end. Literally it IS what is known as Hog Canyon. But, is this the one they meant?
Not that I'm being a nit-picker.
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Serious Posts
azmula,
Every post that left this computer was serious and sincere.
I do not joke about the Stone Maps, ever. You and the others have made some terrific points. Heidi did make quite an impression, and you know you will miss her.
Joe Ribaudo
Every post that left this computer was serious and sincere.
I do not joke about the Stone Maps, ever. You and the others have made some terrific points. Heidi did make quite an impression, and you know you will miss her.
Joe Ribaudo
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Tracy L Hawkins
- Part Timer
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm
- Location: Phoenix Az
Wis
No arguement from me, There are several cuts,gorges,canyons that could be concidered, I was trying to answer what "gorge" would appear as you approched from the south ,on foot or horseback , without a topo map. That old trail from the twin buttes kinda peters out before you get very close. I haven't been around on the western side for several years. Too many houses and private property there now for an old country boy to feel comfortable.
TLH
No arguement from me, There are several cuts,gorges,canyons that could be concidered, I was trying to answer what "gorge" would appear as you approched from the south ,on foot or horseback , without a topo map. That old trail from the twin buttes kinda peters out before you get very close. I haven't been around on the western side for several years. Too many houses and private property there now for an old country boy to feel comfortable.
TLH
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Tracy L Hawkins
- Part Timer
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm
- Location: Phoenix Az
Just went to Maps Inc and picked up some new topos---Goldfield shows the western side clearly--- Darn good question as to which would be concidered the first---etc. I would realy have a problem thinking the spanish or mexicans would have tried to ride up and over on any one of those gourges tho. Kinda limits the choice to the west boulder trail od Peralta canyon, doesn't it ???
TLH
TLH
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Riders
Hi Tracy,
Couple of things concerning riding over the main range. Trails that are nonexistant today, may have been present in the 1800s and even back into the 1700s. Riders of this era would in no way be comparable to a rider today. They would take a horse where we would never think of taking one. The Apache would often ride a horse to death, butcher it and dry the meat. They would then steal the next available horse and ride it to death. That's why we had such a hard time catching them. The Spanish and later the Mexicans of that time were very hard on their stock.
I believe horses were rode to the top of Hog Canyon on a regular basis. We are a different breed of cat today. Since we have no idea of what trails may have been in existance back then, I don't know what you could eliminate.
Hope all is well with you.
Joe Ribaudo
Couple of things concerning riding over the main range. Trails that are nonexistant today, may have been present in the 1800s and even back into the 1700s. Riders of this era would in no way be comparable to a rider today. They would take a horse where we would never think of taking one. The Apache would often ride a horse to death, butcher it and dry the meat. They would then steal the next available horse and ride it to death. That's why we had such a hard time catching them. The Spanish and later the Mexicans of that time were very hard on their stock.
I believe horses were rode to the top of Hog Canyon on a regular basis. We are a different breed of cat today. Since we have no idea of what trails may have been in existance back then, I don't know what you could eliminate.
Hope all is well with you.
Joe Ribaudo