The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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S.C.
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Post by S.C. »

Very astute, Rosebud.

I have said over and over again - the stone maps are fakes. But that is only MY opinion. To each, his own. However, even if the maps were real, there is no one map or map of any kind that is going to lead anyone to anywhere.

What do I mean?

Just this: in my opinion I have not encountered any single map that I felt compelled to follow. Many people spend much time analysizing maps and where they lead. But, they lead no where but to general locations. So... why follow any of them. I have yet to see any map that has caused me to drop everything and "follow it." Therefore, I put little time and effort into elaborate analysis of maps - in particular the stone maps. It will not lead anyone anywhere. Nor will the next big "candidate" of an "authenitic" map - the Perfil Mapa. It is about as worthless as a postage stamp.

I grant, that there are some maps that I find "interesting" in the sense that they indirectly point (only because I interprete them as such) to certain areas where I think the LDM could possibly be, BUT... I do not follow the map (or any map) as an end unto itself.

I find textual evidence to be much more compelling.

I still think "Bobby" gave the horse a carrot.... The stone maps mean nothing.... Again, that is only my opinion...
Tracy L Hawkins
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Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

SC
I have to agree with you about the stone maps, I too, feel they are fakes and have good reason to believe that.
Anyone who has seen the carvings on the hillsides just north of the twin buttes would come to the conclusion that who ever made those maps had seen these carvings as they are very much alike,---horses head, dagger,hearts , heart with the arrow, 1847 etc.
I am not quilified to judge the age of the carvings--they were made by scraping the top soil fron the lighter colored dacite and are at least 200 feet high--the hearts ,that is. The other carvings are somewhat smaller. The brush that has grown up through and around them would indicate they are several hundred years old , with one exception--the number 1847--it apears to have been added at a later date. I base that on the differance in the construction ad the size of the brush.
These carvings can be seen from the air by following the river to the twin buttes and watching the north bank--they are within 1/4 miles of the river and are on both the eastern and western sides of the hills.
TLH
S.C.
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Post by S.C. »

Wow! Now that IS interesting.

That makes you wonder who did that? And for what reason?... And when?... AND, is there any relation to the stone maps - whether they're fakes or not?...
Rosebud
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Post by Rosebud »

Tracy,

My understanding is that the Twin Buttes were the start of the trail to the Superstitions. That is, that Spanish or Mexican parties coming up from Mexico headed for the Twin Buttes where they picked up a marked trail that lead them into the Superstitions. Which brings up an interesting question if you are on the ground coming north to the Superstitions (not looking a some topo. map), which is the “first gorge on the south side from the western end of the mountains”?
Tracy L Hawkins
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Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

SC
I had an archaeologist tell me the carving were palo-indian--betweem 6 and 8 hundred years old---no spanisn expo made them as the as the labor would have taken years --these things are huge! Whoever made the stone maps must have known about them ---why I can only guess.
Rosebud
Traces of an old trail still exists in the area of the twin buttes---the trail goes between two of the hills with the carvings. The Mexicans had to know of them as they were certainly in better condition 150 years ago. Following the trail to the flats, the first opening you can see on the south end on the western side would be Peralta canyon---that , however, is NOT the first gorge on the western side
TLJ
azmula
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The Stone Maps

Post by azmula »

If my memory is still working I believe Dos Buttes was one of the best crossings, year round, going north to the SM. However, the "entrance" into the mountains was primarily (not solely) to the west and north of the mastif in my opinion. There are multiple entrances into the range from that point.

It is also my opinion that the Jesuit Priests were schooled in the German and English mining techniques before being sent to the Pimeria Alta. This included the Spanish map making, including signs and symbols. Although the Jesuits did not personally work the mines it was there job to supply local mining information and the Indian labor (converts) to do the work. They also created the maps for the return to the mines and locations of the caches of gold retained for the church.

I am going to email Greg Davis and request he forward an email to Bob Corbin request any info and also begin a search in the legislative actions taken during Corbin's term.

On the lower trail map there is a notation: 2 = 3 - [donut] - 18 = 7, has anyone deciphered this? How about, 26 mines or treasures with 18 equal to gold? Any challenges? By the way, the holes in the maps are not water holes or mountains they are alignment map to map, go figure?

azmula
Rosebud
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Post by Rosebud »

Tracy,

One of the few clues coming from different sources is the one about: "... the first gorge on the south side from the west end of the range the found a monumented trail…" (or a similar phrase). For example, it is found in the Ruth/Bicknell directions and in the Ortiz Map directions, and I believe in the directions associated with the so-called Weisser Map. There has been some speculation as to which is the “first gorge from the west end on the south side of the range”. Which is the "first gorge from the west end of the range on the south side"?
Tracy L Hawkins
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Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

Rosebud

From the flats aproching the mountains from the south the first gorge would appear to be peralta canyon but as you get closer the gap at Carrnie springs is to the west --farther to the west is at least two cuts that could be called gorges--hygroglipic(sic?) canyon and the one I know as hog canyon---any one could be concidered the western most ---LOL --you pays your money and you takes your choice. What is the difination of a monumented trail ????
TLH
Rosebud
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Post by Rosebud »

Tracy,

I agree it sort of depends on your perspective in looking at the mountains as to which is the first gorge on south side from the western end. Literally it IS what is known as Hog Canyon. But, is this the one they meant?

I know of two ways trails were monumented. In the Bark Notes they are described as placing a small rock on top of a larger rock. Some of these old markers are still to be found on some of the old trails. The other way I have been told is by placing a rock in the fork of a tree. I have wondered if the first way was not used in terrain where people traveled by foot, and the other for more open country where one would be on horseback. Just an idea.
Heidi
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palo-indian

Post by Heidi »

Mr. Hawkins,
I believe your archeologist friend is wrong about the markings at twin
buttes being palo-indian. I don't believe there is even a remote chance of that being so. It is unlikely they are more then three hundred years old.

You say you think the stone maps are fake. If that is true, how could they be part of the markings at twin buttes? Are there a lot of people who knew about these markings prior to the fifties? I have read a lot of the books on the Lost Dutchman, and have never read anything about these markings. You said that you thought the markings at twin buttes were at leas two hundred years old. What about the possibility that the people that made those markings and the ones who made the stone maps are the same Spaniards. If the original markings were made around two hundred to three hundred years ago, they could have been done by the Jesuits and if that's true, the stone maps may have been made around the same time. If the Peralta family knew this information, they could have added the 1847 in that year and it's possible they had possession of the stone maps also. Does that all make since to you? It seems to me that I have read that Hog canyon was monumented and somewhere in this forum, I think someone mentioned riding to the top of it. I don't think there would be a single record of the Jesuits being trained in any mining techniques, because the Jesuit Order claims they did no mining whatsoever. Only souls.
H
S.C.
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Post by S.C. »

Ooooo.... Rosebud brings up an interesting topic... that of the time honored "first gorge...." business.

I have my own theory about that. When one looks into the background of how that reference appears, one can point to a singular occurance and thereafter, it was repeated.

It is not repeated independently. It is repeated based on a common source....
Wiz
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Re: palo-indian

Post by Wiz »

Heidi wrote:I don't think there would be a single record of the Jesuits being trained in any mining techniques, because the Jesuit Order claims they did no mining whatsoever. Only souls.
H
Hello Heidi, welcome to the fray. It's refreshing to have a new voice in the mix.
I think the claim you refer to was made by Father Polzer, whose credibility is less than stellar on this forum. In some previous thread, Lone Wolf provided some interesting web addresses concerning him. I think Azmula may also have some input concerning him.
Heidi
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Jesuit Mining

Post by Heidi »

Wiz,
Thank you for the welcome. I waited a long time to join this forum.
My comment on Jesuit Mining came from a personal relationship rather then any research into the subject. It seems I may have been a little hasty in making that statement. It took very little effort on my part to find evidence of considerable mining activity by the Jesuit Order. My original source, although a Jesuit Priest, may not have all the facts.
H
Aurum
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Post by Aurum »

xx
Last edited by Aurum on Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
azmula
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Post by azmula »

To continue with Aurum's thread a little, a priest was sent with each exploration effort to convert the Indians, obtain mining areas from them, to convince them that working the mines for the priests was for their new God, to create maps of the areas and to watch over the Kings interests. When ever a new mining area was developed more priests and churches were added. I realize this is difficult to agree with or believe the above so here is a short book list for your reading pleasure:
"The Unknown Arizona and Sonora, 1693-1721", Karns, Harry J.
"Father Kino's Lost History", Bolton, Herbert E.
"Historical Memoir of Pimeria Alta", Bolton, Herbert E.
"The Expulsion of the Jesuits from New Spain, 1767, Dunne, Peter M.
etc.

A side note. Does anyone know the spot east of Florence where you can see the "heart shape" of the Needle above the SM outline? I was down there last week and took a few photos of the SM range but could not find a Needle outline. I went to where Tumlinson "found" the Stone Maps and the SM outline matched a particular symbol on the Maps, no needle. But I would like to find that view for my photo collection.

azmula
Tracy L Hawkins
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Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

Rosebud
I am sure we have all seen two rocks piled up alongside the trails , I know I have?who put them there and how long ago I have no idea. Sticks in tree forks make sense as do rocks in the forks of cacti?of which there are plenty in the Superstitions.

Heidi
The archeologist I talked with had a group of people with him and at that time they were taking samples of the ironwoods growing through the carvings to ringdate. ( this was in the mid 60?) and they were from Northern Az U . I am not qualified to argue with him or you about the age.
It is my gut feeling that who ever made those stone maps had knowledge of the carving and simply used them in the maps. I would doubt the Spanish had anything to do with making them as the size alone would have required a huge work force for several months. I can?t see a group of people in a very dangerous area spending the time necessary.
I can?t say how many people knew about the carvings but any one coming north of the buttes on the old trail would have had to be blind to miss them
As far as the Jesuits making the maps from stone---that makes no sense at all. Why would anyone pack 60 lbs of dead weight rock around when they had paper or tanned hides????
I know the common answer is that they were going to hide them and needed something that would stand the test of time, yet that makes no sense as they would have had to have a map to relocate them. However the presence of Jesuits would explain the crown symbol on the bars of gold Harry France and Bob Brady found ( see Cave of gold bars in the forum)

Azmula

If you can find them , read the two books ?The Religious Conquest of the Americas?
They were pulled from the shelves in the Phoenix main library at the request of ?A major religious order?

TLH
azmula
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Post by azmula »

Tracy,

Tracy said:
"As far as the Jesuits making the maps from stone---that makes no sense at all. Why would anyone pack 60 lbs of dead weight rock around when they had paper or tanned hides????
I know the common answer is that they were going to hide them and needed something that would stand the test of time, yet that makes no sense as they would have had to have a map to relocate them."

The Jesuits made many maps on stone for the same reason that the Egyptians, Mayans, Aztecs, etc used stone for their important permanent documents. They were not created to be carried into the desert nor were they found in the desert as I have noted before. If you compare the Fish map, Peralta Map, Rose Map, and a couple of others you will see distinct similarities. The Stone Maps were meant to be kept in the churches until the right time for resurrection and collection.

azmula
Heidi
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Post by Heidi »

Azmula,

I think you are right about the stone maps, except for the part about them being kept in the churches. I don't think they were ever any farther from the mountains, then the place they were buried.

H
Rosebud
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Post by Rosebud »

Heidi,

There is a lot of romance and mis-information associated with the Jesuits in relation to mines and treasure. But, Aurum is right on the mark. In may be the Jesuits did not do mining, or even in some instances opposed it. However, the facts of the matter are that they did supply and support the infrastructure that was absolutely necessary for mining on the frontier. That infrastructure included everything from a base for literacy, supplies and communication, to holding certain Indian populations as virtual hostages at a mission site, to a rational for the Indians place in the social order (i.e., as “appropriate” workers/slaves). So it may be true that they did no mining. In fact, there are (I believe) even some written records of their opposition to it, yet in practice they supported it. Was a given mine a Jesuit mine, or did it belong to a local Spaniard who could not survive or function without Jesuit/Church approval and support? It really is splitting hairs. Remember, that the Spanish Inquisition gave the priests tremendous power over all, including government officials. There are records of at least one governor being hauled off to Mexico City in chains by the Inquisition. So if the Jesuits did not want any mining associated with their missionary work, there would have been none, yet there was. Yes, they were after souls, but they had a peculiar interpretation of that calling in northern Mexico.

Dr. Polzer is fine and respected scholar, but he is (I understand) also a Jesuit. If this is true I am reminded of the old adage: Can any man faithfully serve two masters?

S.C. wrote:

“… "first gorge...." business.

I have my own theory about that. When one looks into the background of how that reference appears, one can point to a singular occurance and thereafter, it was repeated.

It is not repeated independently. It is repeated based on a common source....”

S.C. do you feel you can elaborate on this common source?
Tracy L Hawkins
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Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

Heidi
You may very well be right about the age of those carvings. Joe pointed out that the stylised heart did not appear in this country until the spanish got here in the 15th century. They must have been done quite early as some of the ironwoods dater overt 350 years old and this was in the mid 60's as I remember
TLH
azmula
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Post by azmula »

Heidi,

Quote:
"I think you are right about the stone maps, except for the part about them being kept in the churches. I don't think they were ever any farther from the mountains, then the place they were buried."

There have been several newspaper articles written about "stone maps" that have been found in churches in Mexico, Spain, England, etc. I have spoken to the INAH in Mexico and there were a set of maps stolen while in route to a central location for safe keeping. I am working to confirm the maps identity and timing of the incident.

Note: If you had ever seen the location that the Stone Maps were "supposedly" stumbled over, you would have difficulty believing the story of how they were found in that desert location.

azmula
Heidi
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Post by Heidi »

Wow, I have a lot to answer for. Azmula, Rosebud and Tracy, My source for Jesuit involvement in mining was not Father Polzer. A personal friend who is a Jesuit Priest here in San Diego gave me my information. I don't think he lied, but the church may have a policy of denial and he was simply repeating what he was taught. We have read all the material we needed to convince us that the Jesuits were involved in finding and working, withe the help of the Indians, mines in the New World.
The 1847 dates on the stone maps and the scrapings at Twin Buttes make me believe that the dates, at least, were done by the same hands. The date and the fact that the same marks are found in both places tie the two things together, with little doubt. The suggestion that both dates seem to have been added at a later time then the surrounding information puts a lock on that connection for me. If Azmula is right about the stories of many stone maps being connected to churchs it is possible that our stone maps are also, but is also possible that they are not. Someone hid a church treasure in the Superstition Mountains. If that is true, as Tracy believes, it would point to the Jesuits. If the things we are discussing are post 1767 the only church that could be storing the stone maps would be Franciscan. They were bitter opponents of the Jesuits and would have loved to have some evidence against them. There is also some evidence that the Peraltas were involved with the stone maps, that ties them to the Twin Buttes scrapings also. If all that is true then there is a definate connection between the Jesuits and the early Peraltas. Sorry to run on so long. Why would the location that the stone maps were said to be found in convince me that they were not found there? Please, no more suggestions of books to read on Jesuit mining. I am convinced already!

H
azmula
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Post by azmula »

Heidi,
The area suggested as the location of the Stone Map discovery is very rough and has no space to dig a hiding spot for the large flat stones. For one to accidentally trip over the Maps a hiker would have to check every stone tripped over on the climb and there are many every where. It is just too rugged and makes no sense to bury them any where except in a location expected to be controlled by the church always. The forth coming expulsion was known, expected and planned for many years by the Jesuits.

azmula
Heidi
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Post by Heidi »

Azmula,

I didn't know that the exact spot that the stone maps were found was a known fact. I know people have claimed they have been to the spot, but that seems very subjective and possibly self searving. How would you know to a certainty that it is the correct place? For that matter, how do we know that the finder correctly identified the right area? Would you tell us if it was you who found the maps? Is where they were found that important?
I have read that the Jesuits were not warned that far in advance and that friendly Indians told the Priest in the missions, just ahead of the troops that were coming to remove them. I expect you guys will give me a number of source books to straighten me out.

H
Tracy L Hawkins
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Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

Heidi
Bob Ward took me to a spot east of highway60 between Apache Junction and Florance Jct by an iron bridge that he claimed to be the spot the stone maps were found. I knew Bob for at least 20 years and was never sure just how much of his storys, were shell we say --the product of an overactive imagination-- From the knoll he said was the spot the outlines of the mountains DID match the drawings on the stone maps. Bob pointed out several land marks he claimed to be this or that point on the maps. I have never put much stock in the stone maps but I recieved an Email from Joe with some information I had not put together that has me rethinking my conclusions.
TLH
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