I am also glad you have your own moderated forum Joe. The webmaster is on the ball. He must like you too.
ILoveJoeRibaudo
PS Hooray for Joe !
The Stone Maps
stone maps
Whoever you are why don,t you quite your sick shit.. Bill 
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joe ribuado is cool club
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the stone maps
HI; How does it feel to be so sick and twisted in your mind? GO back to your premordal ooze sicko. Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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It's a New York Thing
Bill,
He has no clue what you are talking about. It's a New York thing.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
He has no clue what you are talking about. It's a New York thing.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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ILoveJoeRibaudo
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A New York Thing
You are right Joe. It's a New York thing. You are smart smart smart. I like your posts Joe. They are good. It's a New York thing. Yippee! Hooray for Joe. He's a good. As ever
ILoveJoeRibaudo
You are nice.
ILoveJoeRibaudo
You are nice.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Moderated Forum
All,
Those who are interested in the Twin Buttes Rendezvous, should look in on the Moderated Forum.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
Those who are interested in the Twin Buttes Rendezvous, should look in on the Moderated Forum.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
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ILoveJoeRibaudo
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Reunion
Thank you Joe. I will do that. I am glad you have your very own forum. I like you. All of us think you are great.
ILoveJoeRibaudo
ILoveJoeRibaudo
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The Jesuit
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The Stone Maps and The Jesuits
I was reading this topic several months back when there were some very interesting discussions on the maps as being Jesuit in origin. I did not read anything that proved they were not created by a Jesuit. Has there been any additional research to support or disprove the source? I do not need sources, I do my own research, but a direction for the source would be nice. I know that that has been an issue in the past.
I am new to this forum but I know there are several knowledgeable people who might help me to understand the Stone Maps and the Jesuit involvement.
Thank you,
The Jesuit
I am new to this forum but I know there are several knowledgeable people who might help me to understand the Stone Maps and the Jesuit involvement.
Thank you,
The Jesuit
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Joe Ribaudo
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Proof
Jesuit,
Welcome to the forum.
You are correct. There are a number of people who have researched Jesuit history for any connection to a treasure in the Superstiition Mountains.
As of today, I believe, the only evidence you will find for the Jesuit's having anything to do with mining in the Southwest, or the hiding of "church" treasure in Arizona, would be evidence that it never happened.
There are many works of fiction, which support another view, but no historical evidence, that I know of.
While I have read a great deal on the subject, I believe others here may understand the Jesuit/Treasure topic better than I.
I don't believe there is any way to "prove" that the Jesuit's did, or did not have anything to do with the creation of the Stone Maps. Azmula still looks in on the forum, may even be posting. He would be the man to talk to, if you are looking for a source for such a connection.
As he is writing a book, I don't think you will have much luck from that direction.
Charles W. Polzer, S.J., made many negative comments concerning the Stone Maps. I believe they can be found on the internet, but chapter 14, of "Fools' Gold" by, Robert Sikorsky is devoted to what he had to say.
I have found connections between the Peralta's and the Jesuit's, and they do hint of wealth in the mix. Those connection can't be made to the Stone Maps in any way. They do show a close connection to the Peralta's of Arizpe.
I have a lot of books on Jesuit history, but I doubt that is the kind of information you are looking for.
As the Jesuit's are an interest of mine, I look forward to your future posts.
I hope you get lots of replies.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Welcome to the forum.
You are correct. There are a number of people who have researched Jesuit history for any connection to a treasure in the Superstiition Mountains.
As of today, I believe, the only evidence you will find for the Jesuit's having anything to do with mining in the Southwest, or the hiding of "church" treasure in Arizona, would be evidence that it never happened.
There are many works of fiction, which support another view, but no historical evidence, that I know of.
While I have read a great deal on the subject, I believe others here may understand the Jesuit/Treasure topic better than I.
I don't believe there is any way to "prove" that the Jesuit's did, or did not have anything to do with the creation of the Stone Maps. Azmula still looks in on the forum, may even be posting. He would be the man to talk to, if you are looking for a source for such a connection.
As he is writing a book, I don't think you will have much luck from that direction.
Charles W. Polzer, S.J., made many negative comments concerning the Stone Maps. I believe they can be found on the internet, but chapter 14, of "Fools' Gold" by, Robert Sikorsky is devoted to what he had to say.
I have found connections between the Peralta's and the Jesuit's, and they do hint of wealth in the mix. Those connection can't be made to the Stone Maps in any way. They do show a close connection to the Peralta's of Arizpe.
I have a lot of books on Jesuit history, but I doubt that is the kind of information you are looking for.
As the Jesuit's are an interest of mine, I look forward to your future posts.
I hope you get lots of replies.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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WyattWestwood
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stone maps
Joe Cool and the tgh; My name is Billy J. Sharp I live in Ok. I am bill711 and I am not Joe Ribaudo. Thank You Bill
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ILoveJoeRibaudo
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Jesuits
Good post on the Jesuits Joe. Still proud that you drove Azmula off the forum? I hope so. Your posts are so much better than his were ! Hooray for Joe ! He's the best poster of all. Yay !
ILoveJoeRibaudo
ILoveJoeRibaudo
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joe ribuado is cool club
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I agree with joe 500%,yes joe has got it right again!I m all for your tactic of trying to drive peter off the forum.that will make it one less dissenter.If you bill and ded require any help to get rid of peter just yell.I really admire you bill and ded, you are all so educated , resourceful, and knowledgable.your posts are a joy to read, and i for one cant get enough of them.They brighten up my day, without them i would not really feel alive any more.Please u increase your quantity of posts,i NEED them to get me through the day.Please tell everyone more about the stone maps, pleeeeeeease!
Re: Proof
Joe Ribaudo wrote:
As of today, I believe, the only evidence you will find for the Jesuit's having anything to do with mining in the Southwest, or the hiding of "church" treasure in Arizona, would be evidence that it never happened.
Charles W. Polzer, S.J., made many negative comments concerning the Stone Maps. I believe they can be found on the internet, but chapter 14, of "Fools' Gold" by, Robert Sikorsky is devoted to what he had to say.Joe Ribaudo
Maybe you could share with us some of your "evidence that it never happened".
As far as Polzer is concerned, I believe his opinions on the matter have been hung out to dry many times on several different forums and websites.
Jan
Last edited by Jan on Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stone maps
Jan; I am not Joe nor DED! Bill711
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dutch elm disease
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The Jesuit
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Past History
Forum,
“…the hiding of “church” treasure in Arizona, would be evidence that it never happened.” (by Joe Ribado)
I am not sure I understand what you mean? There is no actual direct evidence, but I have found considerable circumstantial evidence, some of which has been presented on this forum previously, such as, If they were going to hide something of wealth they would hide it where there were few or no Spanish of the period. What happened to all of the Jesuit wealth? Why are there so many stories of hidden Jesuit wealth? Why do the Jesuits deny the past wealth so quickly? Where there is smoke there is (usually) fire.
There is considerable acknowledgment of the business acumen of the Jesuits. But since the Jesuits were bound by a vow of poverty. What happened to all of the wealth they accumulated from their farming, ranching, and the Indian labor sales to the miners and local residents? Where did all of the church gold and silver relics go?
I met Azmula through this forum and I communicate with him and find him reasonably open as long as I show him the necessary courtesy with reference to his sources of information. He is a good sounding board for questions on the Stone Maps and Sonoran Jesuit history.
I had many conversations with Father Polzer discussing Jesuits and the Jesuit treasure issues and he tended to be a bit evasive on some of the subjects.
I have found a significant number of Spanish families closely associated with the Jesuits in Pimeria Alta. Such as, Vasquez, Ballesteros, Moreno, and others. The Peraltas were not the richest or largest family in the area or the most influential.
My study of the Jesuits has been limited to reading between 50 to 100 books and manuscripts, contacts in the ethno historical community in Arizona and Mexico, and contact with the dominate living Mexican family members still in Mexico. I am trying to get some help from Azmula in this area.
Thank you for your responses,
The Jesuit
“…the hiding of “church” treasure in Arizona, would be evidence that it never happened.” (by Joe Ribado)
I am not sure I understand what you mean? There is no actual direct evidence, but I have found considerable circumstantial evidence, some of which has been presented on this forum previously, such as, If they were going to hide something of wealth they would hide it where there were few or no Spanish of the period. What happened to all of the Jesuit wealth? Why are there so many stories of hidden Jesuit wealth? Why do the Jesuits deny the past wealth so quickly? Where there is smoke there is (usually) fire.
There is considerable acknowledgment of the business acumen of the Jesuits. But since the Jesuits were bound by a vow of poverty. What happened to all of the wealth they accumulated from their farming, ranching, and the Indian labor sales to the miners and local residents? Where did all of the church gold and silver relics go?
I met Azmula through this forum and I communicate with him and find him reasonably open as long as I show him the necessary courtesy with reference to his sources of information. He is a good sounding board for questions on the Stone Maps and Sonoran Jesuit history.
I had many conversations with Father Polzer discussing Jesuits and the Jesuit treasure issues and he tended to be a bit evasive on some of the subjects.
I have found a significant number of Spanish families closely associated with the Jesuits in Pimeria Alta. Such as, Vasquez, Ballesteros, Moreno, and others. The Peraltas were not the richest or largest family in the area or the most influential.
My study of the Jesuits has been limited to reading between 50 to 100 books and manuscripts, contacts in the ethno historical community in Arizona and Mexico, and contact with the dominate living Mexican family members still in Mexico. I am trying to get some help from Azmula in this area.
Thank you for your responses,
The Jesuit
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Evidence
Jesuit,
Although you addressed your post to the forum, after a partial quote of what I said [“…the hiding of “church” treasure in Arizona, would be evidence that it never happened.” (by Joe Ribado)], you continued: "I am not sure I understand what you mean?"
This is what I said:
"As of today, I believe, the only evidence you will find for the Jesuit's having anything to do with mining in the Southwest, or the hiding of "church" treasure in Arizona, would be evidence that it never happened.
There are many works of fiction, which support another view, but no historical evidence, that I know of."
Since you don't understand, along with a few others, I will answer as best I can.
Some consider the lack of "evidence", as evidence that something is being hidden. The only "evidence" (I have seen) is the great volume of Jesuit documents, private letters, journals and the record of what was found when they were expelled. That is a personal opinion and I have only scratched the surface of what might be out there. You have gone much farther in researching this subject than I will ever go.
I used to believe the Jesuits hid treasures and had mines in Mexico. Historical documents have convinced me that, while a great story, it never happened, at least in Mexico. The reason for that can be found by reading the history of the Order. It is not without evidence of what you have claimed for Mexico, just not in Mexico.
When you consider the scope required to cover all traces of such work, done in Mexico, by the Jesuits, over the time span required, and to leave no single document, not even in the Courts of Spain, it might give you pause.
I will not reply to any more of your posts, unless you make a direct comment to me. I promised myself I would not join the conversation, should you return. I would ask that you not use any partial quotes of what I have said, in what appears to be, an effort to make me look foolish. I am more than capable of doing that on my own.
I look forward to reading your posts and the replies they will generate.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Although you addressed your post to the forum, after a partial quote of what I said [“…the hiding of “church” treasure in Arizona, would be evidence that it never happened.” (by Joe Ribado)], you continued: "I am not sure I understand what you mean?"
This is what I said:
"As of today, I believe, the only evidence you will find for the Jesuit's having anything to do with mining in the Southwest, or the hiding of "church" treasure in Arizona, would be evidence that it never happened.
There are many works of fiction, which support another view, but no historical evidence, that I know of."
Since you don't understand, along with a few others, I will answer as best I can.
Some consider the lack of "evidence", as evidence that something is being hidden. The only "evidence" (I have seen) is the great volume of Jesuit documents, private letters, journals and the record of what was found when they were expelled. That is a personal opinion and I have only scratched the surface of what might be out there. You have gone much farther in researching this subject than I will ever go.
I used to believe the Jesuits hid treasures and had mines in Mexico. Historical documents have convinced me that, while a great story, it never happened, at least in Mexico. The reason for that can be found by reading the history of the Order. It is not without evidence of what you have claimed for Mexico, just not in Mexico.
When you consider the scope required to cover all traces of such work, done in Mexico, by the Jesuits, over the time span required, and to leave no single document, not even in the Courts of Spain, it might give you pause.
I will not reply to any more of your posts, unless you make a direct comment to me. I promised myself I would not join the conversation, should you return. I would ask that you not use any partial quotes of what I have said, in what appears to be, an effort to make me look foolish. I am more than capable of doing that on my own.
I look forward to reading your posts and the replies they will generate.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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ILoveJoeRibaudo
- Greenhorn
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Fool
Yes Joe, you are right not to reply to Jesuit. He is out to get you. Out to make you a fool. Very smart. Very good.
ILoveJoeRibaudo
ILoveJoeRibaudo
Jesuits
Jesuit
It is well known the Jesuit order in New Spain had a strict policy against mining. I do not believe the Jesuit order ever themselves actually engaged in the ownership of mines or the digging and extraction of ores. It is well known however that they profited from mining by the tigth they received from the mine owners and claim holders and were enriched by these mines indirectly through the labor of the indians who worked in those mines. Indians who were under the direct control of the missions.
There is a book in the Archivo General de la Nacion in Mexico City in the history section V. 393 with the ponderous title:
Descripcion geografica natural y curiosa de la Provincia de Sonora por un amigo de el servicio de Dios y de el Rey Nuestro Senor.
The book was written by Father Juan Nentvig S.J. 1713 - 1768 a Jesuit priest who described Sonora and Pimaria Alta, the land today known as southern Arizona. The book was translated by Alberto Pradeu.
In this book Nentvig describes the missions of Pimaria Alta as being made of adobe but very well adorned with gold and silver crosses, chalices, silver statues of the virgin Mary, adorned and bejeweled altars, instruments and gold and silver adorned tapestries.
Obviously the missions were benifiting from the mining in the areas even though they themselves were NOT controlling that mining.
Pradeu's own work contains this interesting passage:
Claims that the missionaries carried out forced labor are inacurate. Spain had abolished slavery in 1532 before the Jesuit order was founded. There was a policy however, whereby twenty-seven percent of the mission Indians (tapizques) could be borrowed for up to two months each to work in the mines. The Jesuits kept the mine owners in line and as a result, were often at odds with the owners.
Am I incorrect in my assessment of the indirect Jesuit involvement with mining and have you been acquainted with the work and authors I have mentioned?
James Anderson
It is well known the Jesuit order in New Spain had a strict policy against mining. I do not believe the Jesuit order ever themselves actually engaged in the ownership of mines or the digging and extraction of ores. It is well known however that they profited from mining by the tigth they received from the mine owners and claim holders and were enriched by these mines indirectly through the labor of the indians who worked in those mines. Indians who were under the direct control of the missions.
There is a book in the Archivo General de la Nacion in Mexico City in the history section V. 393 with the ponderous title:
Descripcion geografica natural y curiosa de la Provincia de Sonora por un amigo de el servicio de Dios y de el Rey Nuestro Senor.
The book was written by Father Juan Nentvig S.J. 1713 - 1768 a Jesuit priest who described Sonora and Pimaria Alta, the land today known as southern Arizona. The book was translated by Alberto Pradeu.
In this book Nentvig describes the missions of Pimaria Alta as being made of adobe but very well adorned with gold and silver crosses, chalices, silver statues of the virgin Mary, adorned and bejeweled altars, instruments and gold and silver adorned tapestries.
Obviously the missions were benifiting from the mining in the areas even though they themselves were NOT controlling that mining.
Pradeu's own work contains this interesting passage:
Claims that the missionaries carried out forced labor are inacurate. Spain had abolished slavery in 1532 before the Jesuit order was founded. There was a policy however, whereby twenty-seven percent of the mission Indians (tapizques) could be borrowed for up to two months each to work in the mines. The Jesuits kept the mine owners in line and as a result, were often at odds with the owners.
Am I incorrect in my assessment of the indirect Jesuit involvement with mining and have you been acquainted with the work and authors I have mentioned?
James Anderson
CU and Jesuit,
Am I misunderstanding here, or are you guys basically agreeing on the Jesuits possibly having treasure stashed?
To say that the evidence says there is no Jesuit treasure hidden, violates Dr. Glover's "test of wrongness"; that is, how could such a statement ever be proved? The only options are that there is (proved by finding it), or that there might or might not be.
You both cite sources that I respect highly.
Am I misunderstanding here, or are you guys basically agreeing on the Jesuits possibly having treasure stashed?
To say that the evidence says there is no Jesuit treasure hidden, violates Dr. Glover's "test of wrongness"; that is, how could such a statement ever be proved? The only options are that there is (proved by finding it), or that there might or might not be.
You both cite sources that I respect highly.
Wiz,
My only thoughts on the matter are that there is concrete evidence that at one time the Jesuit missions had a wealth of gold , silver and jeweled objects.
When the Jesuits were expelled in 1767 the Jesuit Priests had none of those items. The missions had none of the items in them. And the persons who were charged with imprisoning the Jesuits did not have the items.
The items did not just vanish into thin air. Something had to happen to them.
The options are few and fairly straight forward.
The Jesuits took the items and hid them somewhere.
The settlers in the area plundered the missions
Bandits looted the missions.
The people sent to arrest the Jesuits took them and concealed the fact.
The indians plundered the items.
I don't know what all of Jesuits feelings are on the matter so I can't say if I agree or disagree with the poster. I'm sure there are some things we agree on but others that we disagree on. I'm not an expert on the subject so my take on the whole thing is based on what I have read, seen and what common sense tells me.
James Anderson
My only thoughts on the matter are that there is concrete evidence that at one time the Jesuit missions had a wealth of gold , silver and jeweled objects.
When the Jesuits were expelled in 1767 the Jesuit Priests had none of those items. The missions had none of the items in them. And the persons who were charged with imprisoning the Jesuits did not have the items.
The items did not just vanish into thin air. Something had to happen to them.
The options are few and fairly straight forward.
The Jesuits took the items and hid them somewhere.
The settlers in the area plundered the missions
Bandits looted the missions.
The people sent to arrest the Jesuits took them and concealed the fact.
The indians plundered the items.
I don't know what all of Jesuits feelings are on the matter so I can't say if I agree or disagree with the poster. I'm sure there are some things we agree on but others that we disagree on. I'm not an expert on the subject so my take on the whole thing is based on what I have read, seen and what common sense tells me.
James Anderson
This is a test
I am going to attempt to do something here that I just learned to do. (inserting a link to a photo into a post and see if it displays the photo in the post)
It didn't do what I wanted it to.
It didn't do what I wanted it to.