The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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late49er
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Stone Maps

Post by late49er »

Joe,

Haven`t a clue as to what "Besh-Be-Cha-He" means, perhaps you can elaborate.

Your point about Gossans is well taken. Always have found magnetite a good indicator element for gold, but as you say there are gossans and there are gossans. The one I am familiar with in the Superstitutions is a pipe and is very interesting. Suspect it is not far from where you folks are at.

In regards to the Stone Maps, not the horse and priest stones, but the trail maps do you believe they lead to something of value? I believe they do and they are a lot older than people may suspect. My information is from a seperate source, which for the moment I cannot reveal.

Having said that I am not sure you really are at the end of the trail. Another person looked for what I believe you are after for a long time and it isn`t the LDM. People did think he was looking for the LDM though. Have to say it was a good way to hide your search. Right there in plain view.

Have a class to teach for now.

Late 49er
Joe Ribaudo
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"Iron Hat"

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

You have come a long way, LDM/Stone Map-wise, since Feb. 12.

You will get a chuckle out of this.

"Besh-Be-Cha-He" is Navaho. It means "Iron Hat". It was the "code" name for Germany used by the Navaho Code Talkers in WWII.

I don't believe the end of the Stone Map Trail is the LDM, but I do believe the LDM is shown on the maps.

How are you familiar with a gossan in the Superstitions? Personally or through another party? My gossan is west of Miner's Needle and south of La Barge Canyon. Is that the same for yours?

Respectfully,

Joe
late49er
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Stone Maps

Post by late49er »

Joe,

Not sure where to start. My activities are basically in the horse country, Pistol Canyon, and the real Squaw Canyon. Been to Peter`s Mesa and
the Herman Mountain area.

Aware of several mesothermal vein systems and 1 Epithermal System.

The System I am referencing in my discussion with you is located just east of where I suspect Deering and I think you call them the soldier boys were operating. That system is mesothermal in nature and seems to have a lot of iron and manganese inclusions. Not a geologist but the vein structure reminds me of what I have seen come out of the Haile Mine, in North Carolina, and the Empire Mine in Grass Valley, California. Had a friend, died a few years ago, who worked in that mine. Just as an aside that was one heck of a deep mine. The mules that worked in the depths of Grass Valley stayed in the mine most of their life. A certain mule busted my friend up pretty bad down there. The mule was quite proud of himself I understand.

My guide in all of this has been gone a long time. Quite a man. He survived a lot in those mountains. Not sure I would have had the courage to do what he did. Thank God he pre-dates the fights you folks have over Dick Holmes. Man what a blood letting.

Just curious. You seem to be familiar with the Indians in that part of the county. Myself I don`t have a clue. Who would carve a sun burst in a god-forsaken place I crawled through. Lucky to make it to the other side. Believe you folks have the mother of all snakes down there.

Regards,

Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

Mesothermal and Epithermal, as I remember, can mean a couple of things. One, the most obvious, has to do with the temprature (thermal) and pressure where the vein was first formed.

I also seem to remember that a vein formed at an intermediate depth was mesothermal and a vein formed at a shallow depth was epithermal.

There must be hundrreds of mines called the "Empire" around the world.
I used to dredge up in the Mother Lode country. The "Empire" you are talking about was the largest "hard-rock" mine in California. Two miles deep and "357 miles of lateral tunnels."

Here is an interesting story from "Distant Horizon" by, Gary Noy:

"At Grass Valley's Empire Mine, a massive cave-in collapsed hundreds of feet of tunnel and caused extensive flooding-All during a shift change. The miners firmly believed that tommyknockers had held up the rock until the crew got out, and then released it, and as was their common practice, the miners expressed this belief to the mine management."

That's from a very entertaining section on "Tommyknockers".

Everyone who has spent any time in the Superstitions believes they have been in the most "god-forsaken place" on the planet. All of them were in a different area of the range. :lol: What was "god-forsaken to them, was the Apache's back yard.

I believe you could take your pick, other than Apache, for an Indian tribe that would carve a sunburst into rock. Nice find, keep it to yourself.

Respectfully,

Joe
sluicebox
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Twin Buttes

Post by sluicebox »

I just started reading this thread recently. Just wondering if someone who has actually been there could give me some direction on where to find those scrapings at Twin Buttes. We hiked around the South end of the South butte, but didn't find anything. Anyone know where to look once you get there? Regards, Sluicebox
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Twin Buttes

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sluicebox,

I believe Tracy Hawkins was there when the pictures were taken by Ernie Provence. I am not aware that anyone else here, has made the trip. There is one person, that I know of who wanted to go, but I am not sure he did. He is a member, so perhaps he will speak up.

I would like to take a look, myself. Perhaps we could put together some kind of a group trip. That would be fun and give us all a chance to meet.

In the event that no one can give you an answer, I will put you in the right place. It would be better if you got your directions from someone who has been there.

Anyone else like the idea of such a field trip? We could wait for cooler weather, take 4X4s, Quads, Dirt Bikes and Camping/Trailer/Tents and circle up somewhere.

Sitting around the camp fire with fifteen or twenty Dutch Hunters, their wives, kids and dogs would be a blast. :)

I would be more than happy to be the one to do the organization for the trip. Those who would like to cuss me out in person, this would be a great chance. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
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Finding A Kindred Spirit

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

As I ponder the tremendous response to my suggestion of a get-together at Twin Buttes, I can't help but think back over the last few years, and the numerous e-mails I have received from Dutch Hunters looking for someone to go into the Supes with.

I know that some of you have hooked up with people I have suggested, but I am sure others are still working alone. That is never a good idea in the Superstitions, and two (like minded) individuals working together on a problem are much more likely to find a solution.

You are all outdoorsman, so a weekend camping can't be something you would be adverse to. Such a campout would be a great, non-threatning,
way to meet some of the people interested in the Superstitions, and get to know them personally.

Any exchanges of information or whatever....would be up to each individual.

This would be a great opportunity for you all to see something that very well could pertain to the treasures in the Supes, as well as artifacts which may be of historical value.

This is not something that would be appealing to the lone wolves out there. I doubt there would be any anti-social types who would show up at such an affair.

Let me know what you think.

Respectfully,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
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Hot Camping

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

Roger just clued me in on the temps right now in the Twin Buttes area.
Living up here in "balmy" Lake Havasu City, I had no idea it was hot down there. :lol:

Actually I was thinking of sometime in late Sept. or early Oct. I would make a pre-run to pick out a site that would be easy to reach, near the Buttes and flat enough to create a large circle of camping outfits.

I did this a few times out west of Eagle Mountain. Uncle Obie had drawn us a map of an old gold mine that two brothers had killed each other over.
Aunt Olive confirmed that it was rich ore, she was the one who knew the geology angle of prospecting, so we were sure it was worth looking up.
We did find Barry Storm's Jade mine .

There were fifteen or sixteen rigs, running from tents to motor homes in the circle. When I think of good times, these two trips are right up towards the top.

Those who are interested, let me know. I will firm up the time as quickly as possible, taking any problem dates into consideration. As we get closer, I will want firm comitments. I will announce who is planing on being there, unless you request otherwise. This will give others who have been looking for a chance to meet you the opportunity.

This will be for the entire family, not a "boys nite out". If you are interested, let me know.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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928-855-8655 Days
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azdave35
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Post by azdave35 »

hi joe....where are the twin buttes?
Joe Ribaudo
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Twin Buttes/Double Peaks

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Dave,

Nice to hear from you again. Hope all is well.

If you were to travel due east from Price, AZ for 2 3/4 miles, you would be between the North and South Buttes of what we call Twin Buttes, and I think others may know as Double Peaks. The Gila River runs between the two.

As far as I know, we will be just south of the South Butte in Donnely Wash. Not sure how we will get there yet. :)

Are you up for it?

Respectfully,

Joe
RU Kidding
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Post by RU Kidding »

Joe-might I suggest the site of the old town of Cochran instead of Donnely wash? It is very near Donnely wash and South Butte. It has several huge trees for shade and plenty of relatively flat areas for camping. It is right next to the Gila river and offers a view of the coke ovens. Last time I was there it did not require 4wd vehicles although high clearance would not be a bad idea. Whatcha think ??
Joe Ribaudo
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Cochran

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

RUK,

That looks and sounds good to me. Is there a road between Price and Cochran? The trees sound good, but as anyone who has seen my camps know, I bring my own shade. :lol:

I am open to any suggestions, especially from someone who has been in the area. I notice there are roads from Cochran to South Butte, but it looks like seven or eight miles. First you go south and then north to the south side of the butte. Much closer along the river.

If someone else wants to make the pre-run with me, that would be fine.

I am going to do this, no matter if it's just me and the wife, or twenty others. The more people, the more fun it will be.

Respectfully,

Joe
azdave35
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Post by azdave35 »

hey joe...i might be up for something like that..especially if it is in the fall after it cools down...keep me posted
RU Kidding
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Post by RU Kidding »

Joe,as I recall "Price" is on the north side of the river. I have passed it many times on my way to Box canyon and Martinez canyon. There is no Price as far as I know,just a farmhouse and a couple of sheds. Anyway,it is on the wrong side of the river to get to South Butte. To get to Cochran you take the Donnelly wash road,so you might as well go to Cochran. I would suggest picking a time of month when there is a Full moon or close to full. It is very relaxing to sit under those big trees in the moonlight and think about all the old west history that has taken place in the general vicinity. Warning: it will probably still be hot during the days in October,although not unbearable. Full moon in October is on the 17th.
Joe Ribaudo
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Das Campout

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Dave,

I will keep everyone posted. Hope you will make it.

RUK,

You are correct about Price. That's why I asked if there was a road from there to Cochran. I will take your advise on the best way to get to Cochran.

Respectfully,

Joe
RU Kidding
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Post by RU Kidding »

Joe,you could ford the river from Price to Cochran,but it would depend on the water level and your rig. I see no need to go to Price at all when it is so much simpler to go to Cochran from Florence. Take the Florence to Kelvin road-passes right thru the prison. After you take the Donnely ranch turnoff you keep to the right to go to Cochran instead of to the left to go to Donnely wash.
hound dog
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Post by hound dog »

Joe,

I think this would be a great idea. Please count me in, and if their is anything I can do to assist you on this end please let me know.

Hound dog
Joe Ribaudo
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Das Short List

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

As I said, unless you ask not to be listed, I will let people know who is planning on making this trip.

Here are the people who are penciled-in:

Greg Davis
Roger
Desert Dave
Hound Dog
RUK?

Can't believe Knun and Rochha have not surfaced here. This would be right up their alley.

Sluicebox,

Sorry to take so long to get back to you. Your question got lost for a bit.

As I understand it, you approach the South Butte from the south, and you will see the scrapings. Sounds like you should have found them. I will ask Tracy Hawkins.

You should consider making the campout. We would have a lot better chance of finding them with more searchers.

As for a time to make the trip, I am open to the suggestions of those who have been in the area. Other than the week before and the week after Thanksgiving, I am open to any weekend.

This seems to be coming together rather quickly so it might be a good idea to settle on a date as early as possible. At this point I am thinking early Oct. Those who want to come but have dates they can't make in Oct., let me know now.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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bill711
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the stone maps

Post by bill711 »

Joe; you might add as to the size of the scrapings and the best time of the day to see them! before noon or the afternoon? This way he will know best WHAT he is looking for! Bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
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Don't Know

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

I have some pictures and description from my Uncle Chuck and Tracy Hawkins. I know they are very big. Never seen them in person, so I don't really know the answers to your questions.

We have someone coming from Texas, so OK is not too far.

Respectfully,

Joe
sluicebox
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camping

Post by sluicebox »

Joe,

Count me and my brother inlaw in on the trip, and let me know if you need any help with the pre- run or anything. We took Donnely Wash road and it was a very easy trip. If you wanted to camp in the wash itself, it would require a 4w/d as it is very deep sand in spots. There is a road connecting the old stage coach ruins with the wash that might make it easy to get to the mouth of the wash and the river without a 4w/d. There is a very large open shady area here as well, and a lot of water currently flowing in the river. The person I went with has been there several times before. He said that other routes require a 4 wheel drive (large rocks) or a willingness to put super scratches in your vehicle. He is on vacation for the next ten days, but I'm fairly certain that he would be interested in the trip or helping with routes and camping locations. I guess no one else has been there looking for the scrapings, as no one else has come forward with that information. We also looked on the East side of Donnely wash, but with no luck there either. Regards, Sluicebox
Knun
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twin Buttes

Post by Knun »

Joe,
Count me in. Are we talking late Oct. early Nov. timeframe?
late49er
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stone maps

Post by late49er »

Joe,

Pencil me in. Should be a fun time.

Regards,

Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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It's Alive!

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Knun,

Way happy to have you aboard. I believe the early Oct, late Nov. timeframe seems to be a go. We will work out the exact weekend as quickly as possible.

Right now the list includes:

Greg Davis
Roger
Desert Dave
Hound Dog
RUK
Sluicebox + 1 or 2
Knun
Rochha
Late 49er.

I plan on nudging Dr. Glover this weekend. There are so many members I would like to meet, including Peter and Wiz, but don't know if they can bring themselves to share the same camp with me. :lol: Guys, it looks like it could be a pretty big camp. No need for us to share a tent or anything like that. :)

I would like to know how many will be coming with each of you. Carolyn will come, but not if she is going to be the only woman in camp. After I check the area out, I will want to know what you will be camping in.
Tent, Pick-up Camper, Tent Trailer, Van or whatever.

I would love to see any of the Feldman's, but I know they will be up to their eyeballs in "dudes".

I am also going to contact Tracy Hawkins and see if he would be able to make the trip.

Respectfully,

Joe
hound dog
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Post by hound dog »

Joe,
Am going to be over in that area (Cochran) this weekend if you would like I can look around a bit, or if you allready have an idea I can check that out for you. Just let me know.

Hound Dog
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