The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Wiz
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Re: The Trail

Post by Wiz »

Joe Ribaudo wrote: Having found and walked that trail, nowhere near Bluff Spring Mountain...
OK, OK, I was going from memory. If it wasn't Bluff Spring Mtn, did he give the location? Or just a reference to the trail without location? I don't have the book handy or I'd check. But I was sure he was talking about BS Mountain.
Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

Wyatt Westwood wrote:Your input of knowledge can be tainted by an over bearing surge of to much meaningless info of unrequired information to fast.
I hate when that happens!
Joe Ribaudo
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Trails End

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz,

Sims Ely used the "three feet in width" phrase, to describe one of "two routes out of the horse country". It was there contention that the trails were used to haul timber to the mine. That trail "leads northward from the soldier camp and down a steep declivity to the base of Tortilla Mountain, the highest peak in the superstitions." The quotes are found on page 132 & 133 of Ely's book.

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
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Stone map,s

Post by bill711 »

When your mind gets muddled up, it,s time to back off for awhile and do something else for awhile until you get a good rest on the subject. Bill
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Post by P »

>>Sims Ely used the "three feet in width" phrase, to describe one of "two routes out of the horse country". It was there contention that the trails were used to haul timber to the mine. That trail "leads northward from the soldier camp and down a steep declivity to the base of Tortilla Mountain, the highest peak in the superstitions." The quotes are found on page 132 & 133 of Ely's book. <<

And if anyone thinks Ely meant todays Horse Country, soldier camp and Tortilla Mtn, theres this bridge in Brooklyn for sale you might want to check out....
Knun
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Post by Knun »

Joe,
Actually you misquoted Mr. Ely.

Sims was discribing the hunt for mesquite timbers necessary to shore up the tunnel. The pit, Sims and Bark reasoned, only needed readily available cottonwood.

Concerning the trail necessary for hauling mesquite they identified two possiblities:

Trail #1 - Connected the horse country with LeBarge Canyon. Running southward. At least three feet in width. They felt "far from certain" about this trail.
Trail #2 - This is the one you refer to. "Northward from soldier camp, down declivity, to the base of Tortilla Mountian, etc. " Sims did not give a physical description of this trail, rationalizing this by stating that it was in loose material.

Sims says that each trail was "marked by a deeply worn trail."

In the book Sims implies that they never settled on which trail was THE trail.

Regardless, Sims (and/or Jim) found two trails which were deeply worn which ran in opposite directions.

Peter,
La barge hasn't changed so it's not that confusing as to where Sims is talking about.
Joe Ribaudo
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Misquote?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Knun,

You are correct. Although my quote is correct, it does not apply to Northcutt Ely"s comments. He was speaking of the Jimmy Anderson Trail, and the description found on pages 125 & 126 of Sim's book.

Good call!

Wiz,

I stand corrected. You were right about Bluff Spring Mountain. Good thing we have you younsters around to keep old guys like me from getting lost in the literary jungle. :)

Only two of the trails match the description. Lucky for me, that no one has talked or written about the other trail, "less traveled", (today). :lol:
Pictures available on request.

It has been interesting to see how Sim's book has been downplayed because of "facts" which were not in agreement with the Bark Manuscript.
Lots of reasons why Sims was wrong and any number of other authors were probably right. I wonder if Greg could let us know how long Northcutt searched for the LDM. Now you have to love a guy like Jim Bark, who upon finding Joe Deering's willow tree, cut it down and hauled it back to his ranch. Now why do you suppose he would do something like that? Ever wonder what else he might have done to stop others from finding the LDM? It would be interesting to see the real manuscript.

We will be at the 90th. birthday party of Joe Stoker on Saturday. His father was Sam Huston Stoker, brother of Obie Stoker. Including me, there will be three of Sam's grandsons at the party. We all knew Obie well and have walked in his footsteps, both in and out of the Superstitions. He was a hard man to follow. Anyone who knew him would be shocked to learn he died at 102 years old. 8O

Sorry I rambled on here.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by P »

Knun,

Sims Ely mislabled or misplaced several landmarks in his book purposely. Among them the "horse" country, the "soldiers" camp etc. He also misnamed some mountains.

Joe

There are a couple of stories about the fate of Deerings Willow. One is that Bark cut it down. Another is that it was washed upcanyon in a flood.
I have seen a few of the "flood" theories put forth by Dutch Hunters who I believe knew a thing or two..so am in the flood camp for now. Read one report that the willow was found (this after being washed away in the flood)and Deerings cross seen as late as the 1960s. The source for the 60s sighting (sounds like we are looking for bigfoot) isnt of the highest quality tho..
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stone map,s

Post by bill711 »

Pete; How does an object WASH up stream or canyon??? I was under the impression that object,s washed down stream?? Bill
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Post by P »

Oops. My mistake. I'd like to plead senility like Joe does when he trips up, but I am not in the "senior" class yet...so I guess I will just blame it on stupidity.

P
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

WELL Thank,s Pete; I was sort of baffled there, I was wondering if there was something I didn,t know about the sup,s!!! Bill 8O :lol: :lol: :lol:
Gregory E. Davis
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Post by Gregory E. Davis »

Joe; I would suggest you contact Tom Glover. He knew Northcutt Ely and spent many hours with the man discussing the Superstitions, Sims Ely, Jim Bark, etc. He may be able to better answer your question than I can. Greg Davis
Joe Ribaudo
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Low Inteligence?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

I have been told by those who have met you, that you seem to be above average in intelligence. If their assessments are correct, you will need to find something else to blame your mistakes on. I have staked out senility
as my own, here on the site, so please try to find something original for yourself. :lol:

Greg,

Thank you for the suggestion. I believe Dr. Glover may be a little busy right now. I will wait a bit, and see if he finds the time to look in on the site.

Respectfully,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
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Headlights

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

For anyone interested, the headlights on that Pontiac are right at 7".
That makes the Stone Maps on the bumper about 18" long and a little under 13" tall.

Respectfully,

Joe
I_Found_The_Gold
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Post by I_Found_The_Gold »

I dont know if anyone remembers this, but when I was at goldfield I took a picture of a stone map (possibly re-creation?) and here is the picture.

Image
I'm new so please be nice to me !
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Wyatt Westwood
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Apache Stone Map Dinner Plates

Post by Wyatt Westwood »

Every Apache had one of those stone map dinner plate heart stone corn grinders in their knapsack. They also carried and read many books everyday they got from their local Medicine Man Main Branch Library. The Stone Dinner Plate with matching heart saucer was good for grinding and as a spare plate for their guests. They would serve live and Beating Buffalo Hearts in the middle for those Sacred Heart Dinner Ceremonies.

The Knife Symbol was for cutting the Buffalo hearts out. The Blood from the heart would drain over the edges along the groves and feed many hungry Wolves waiting to feed at the Medicine Mans and Chiefs rock table.

They probably lost it while driving their stone getaway car to avoid any more Peraltas coming after them on burros.

They were so clever in that way.

The Priest and Horse Maps?
Just Menus!

Yaba Daba Dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

IFTG,
If those are the stone maps at the Superstition Mountain Museum, then yes, they are reproductions. Some folks say they are not accurate reproductions, although I don't know one way or the other.
lazarus
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Stone Maps

Post by lazarus »

Get ready for the 33rd ANNUAL FLAGG, GEM & MINERAL SHOW, the annual tribute to A.L. Flagg, featuring a RARE PUBLIC DISPLAY of the PERALTA STONES. The show is not until January 7-9th, 2005, however, it is sponsored by the ARIZONA MINERAL & MINING MUSEUM FOUNDATION. Yes, this is the organization who claims to have the REAL STONE MAPS...the ones you must make an appointment to see, and not for cheap. When I spotted the poster, I called the AMMMF to see if these were indeed the actual stones, and they assured me again that they were. I will upload a photo of the poster to my Members Archive page soon.
Admission to the GEM & MINERAL SHOW is FREE, so this might be a good chance for some of us to check out this set of stones for ourselves.
For More Information:
Arizona Mineral & Mining Museum Foundation
480-814-9086
www.azminfun.com

The maps on display at the Superstition Mountain Museum are indeed reproductions, although I can't say for certain how accurate. There is another very similar set on display across the street at the new museum located within Goldfield Ghost Town. All are worth seeing.

Laz
bill711
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Post by bill711 »

Everyone; On another note concerning the great A.L. Flag. Paul Harvey reported a man and woman bought a bunch of painting,s at a garage sale of one of the museum,s there as they were cleaning out a bunch of old storage they had there that was cluttering thing,s up. They gave about 10.00 or 15.00 dollars for them. They got them home and begain cleaning them up and they were painting by A.L. Flag; They had the painting appraised and they were very supprised to find they were valued at several million dollars... 8O 8O :lol: :lol: :lol: I haven,t heard any more. Bill
Joe Ribaudo
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End Of The Trail

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

For anyone interested in the Stone Maps, and wondering what will be found at the end of the trail, here it is:

At the end of the Stone Map trail there is a large triangle. The trail itself leads to the center of the heart, which is above the triangle. Within the triangle there is a large deposit of Magnetite. You might want to ask your local geologist if that is possible in the Superstitions.

Anyone know why we might be interested in a large deposit of magnetite in the Superstitions?

Respectfully,

Joe
late49er
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stone maps

Post by late49er »

Congraulations on your accomplishemnt.

Significance: "Magnetite has beee recorded from gold deposits. It is mostly a relatively minor gangue consitutient if gold-quartz and gold-bearing polymetallic deposits, but in some Skarn and PIPELIKE deposits it maybe relativedly abundant...Massive magnetite and much chlorite form the core of the Juno lode, and Gold is concentrated in the centre of this core". R.W. Boyle, "The Geochemistry of Gold and its Deposits". page 194.

Assume the deposit is possible since deposits are known in Metamorphic, Igneous, and Sedimentary Rocks. Also since you say it is so. Interesting Magnetite deposit in India in pre-cambrina rocks. Believe it was in the Kolar field, banded Iron-formation. Oh well, the first thing to go is memory.

Imagine Jacob Waltz would find all of this amusing. I know he would agree that their is no lode like that with an iron hat.

Regards,

Late 49er
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Post by late49er »

Sorry about the spelling. Long day.

Regards,

Late 49er
Joe Ribaudo
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Gossan

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

Not unusual to find "iron hat/cap" (gossan) around volcanoes. The important question here is if the occurrence is a laterally extending bog-iron accumulation.

"Magnetite and hematite are widespread in metamorphic rocks, and limonite and hematite are formed around volcanoes and constitute the capping, called gossan or 'iron hat,' of many mineral and ore veins."
Ceramics For The Archaeologist by, Ann Shepard. page 36


"Many metalliferous deposits are composed in part of ferruginous or manganiferous minerals. Indeed, most occurrences of base-metal materials are thus characterized. These comon characteristics, upon weathering usually yeild localizations of iron or manganese oxides on the outcrop which are known as "gossan." A gossan in the field is dependable evidence of the existence of at least iron or manganese mineralization it depth and, if interpreted properly, may offer a clue as to what other mineral substances were present before breakdown by decomposition."
The Principles of Field and Mining Geology by, James Forrester. pages 129 & 132

My "iron hat" extends a few feet out of the surrounding earth and is localized in a outcropping that is no larger than five feet in diameter.

What do it all mean? :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Coincidence?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

I forgot one very important detail.

Could "Besh-Be-Cha-He" only be a coincidence here? I think not! :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
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maps

Post by bill711 »

OK JOE; Did you also put the HEMETITE lode there too??? bill 8)
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