The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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pippinwhitepaws
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

i forgot..this text is about to redefine our views of the southwest.
at least shed a new light on existing information.

http://books.google.com/books/about/The ... 4Km3Y8oAwC

coronado came north with less than two hundred europeans...and one thousand "allies" and slaves.
and i believe coronado had the largest expedition to travel north...the later period had lesser columns of explorers.
so i modify my statements about armies in arizona...but still...we must recognize the disconnect between what the spanish wanted...cities of gold, vs. the reality of a difficult hostile environment.

Sendittoroberto
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

Hello

I do not think Zuni were engineers in the European sense, but the Swiss were. Montezuma sent his 'engineering' staff to show them how to build better buildings, better pottery and any other little improvements he could. The source I read say the Aztecs sought an empire that spanned from LA to Dallas and tried to influence farming methods all across the SW. They can import more food that way. Corn of the period was extremely thin and short cobs. So, for example in the Yucatan and Mexico they would take irrigable land, divide it into little squares for maximum water effeciency; called 'waffle farming'. They may have brought it from the north, as it is seen even today in aerial photos and in petroglyphs. The Hohokam also farmed with waffles. Takes less water, more productive. But it must be said that prior to disease from the invading armies, there was greater peace, greater farming wealth, and a bigger sense of community across that large span the Aztec did business with.

Also, Pizzaro, like Cortes, learned his coming was predicted. Both leaders discovered people would drop weapons in most cases, believing they fulfilled a prophecy indicating fighting was pointless. So yes, small quantities of conquistadores made lots of progress with bullying.

In fact, most stone map enthusiasts don't know, but a Peralta was one of the 12 people to march into and conquer Peru with Pizzaro. Seems just before they arrived the 12th Inca emporer died, reminding them that their Sun God predicted that there would only be 12 kings, and that in the reign of the 13th, invaders from the east with superior technology, strategy and infinite resources would come and conquer all. Therefore his command upon death was that all after him more or less lay down weapons and submit to the invaders as envoys of the Sun God.

The invaders discovered silver mines galore. Eventually as you know the Peraltas wound up having mines in the Zacatecas back in Mexcio but they played out too.

Yes, if anyone wants to read all this for themselves I can provide a list of citations.

The 'lost presidio' of Tucson ?. There is are rebuild presidio in downtown Tucson, on the site of the original, using the archeological evidence. But we don't have images to tell us if the ramparts or corners of the roof are right.

Lastly, I mentioned a cross of unique design previously but I didn't hear where / how you all would like me to post it. As I said, it is in location making it difficult to show without being some distance so here is what I have today. Not much to brag about. I will be going back to improve on this.

Robert
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A Cross laid out on the ground in the Supes with stones and bedrock.<br />Robert
A Cross laid out on the ground in the Supes with stones and bedrock.
Robert
Cross 1.jpg (216.69 KiB) Viewed 11839 times

pippinwhitepaws
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

sorry, i do not believe the site of the rebuilt presidio is the true site.
it was lost and perhaps "over here" is in tune with progress not history...
but who am i to interfere with progress and extracting money from tourists?

you do know that the Aztec were late arrivals to meso america?
that the monumental works of the 'Aztec' were for the most part maya?
the Aztec chopped off the top of the(people) pyramid and place themselves at the top.
estimates suggest the aztec arrived perhaps 150 years before the spanish.

Sendittoroberto
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

Not having participated in locating the present copy of the Presidio I accept your point without concern.

To return to the point, Zuniega was the first military command to go north after Coronado and he went north from Tucson by the San Pedro to the Gila. It was the first direct route. Why do that ? Two possible 'important reasons' were that those planning on building north needed a route to an alternate route to resources without going through the markups of Mexico City. The other may be that they had to portage the returned 'treasure of Santa Fe' to that church that still stands.

But its all fairy tails. Like, where was that presidio. But Zuniegas route has been followed and archeological evidence retrieved and is now displayed.

I have not heard that it is not possible that the treasure was retrieved by the Peraltas in exchange for mines, or that Zuniega transported it to Santa Fe. Also, note that the Jesuit purge and torture of Rojas was after this. Could it be that the King of Spain and the Jesuits disagreed about paying for the interruption in mining and the cost of beefing up the military ? Could it be that the King of Spain wanted the governor of Santa Fe to sieze the returned treasure to pay for the setback of income to the king but each Jesuit keeping books for the King had set aside the churches portion and likely didn't want to pay for the cost created by the 4 Jesuit priests that initiated the rebellion with the Pimas ? It could be that when Rojas realized the King would make the demand he moved all or a portion and it may or may not be where the Stone maps indicate ?
:(

Our greatest challenge is that the US Govt has demonstrated in NM it is willing to sieze treasure and not tell anyone. Also, that they sent the NFS in to rid the area of any sign of human influence / impact to 'clean up' after the LDM hunter purge. What else was cleaned up ? This means we have had at least 3 long term efforts to mess with the evidence, Tex Barkley, Apaches and the NFS.

I happen to hold the opinion that only the Stone Maps and the Mountains are left and the solution lies with only these two pieces in hand. Whether that map represents more than the Supes or not is up to each researcher. As Phil Reinhardt SMHS says, nobody is right until somebody hits him on the head with a 5 lb bar of gold. Funny, and yes he said I could quote him.
:?


And I still would still like to ask 'Joe' about some things past posts to help me get oriented and past my own interpretations of what I read. Any chance ?
:(

robert

Cubfan64
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Cubfan64 »

And I still would still like to ask 'Joe' about some things past posts to help me get oriented and past my own interpretations of what I read. Any chance ?

robert
Joe posted his e-mail address for you to contact him anytime a couple pages back.

Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

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Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Robert,

Just to be clear, I don't exchange private emails or phone calls without knowing the real names, addresses, and phone numbers of the people I am exchanging them with.

You will need to send that information with your first email. I will return my personal information with my reply.

[email protected]

Take care,

Joe

pippinwhitepaws
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

thanks somehiker.

i still have doubts...but...if u of a believes...i will read up.

wondered why none of you jumped in on this conversation....
kinda like beating a dead horse i guess.

pippinwhitepaws
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

oh forgot...
i read some of the stone maps stuff over at treasurenet....and i can not help noticing the twin buttes references...seems you guys are going east, now just go norht a few miles an you walk up on the twin holes i found above superior.

i just have a difficult time believing the spanish walked right past bisbee deposits and the vast copper,silver,gold at magma...and still had time to locate, work, and build monumental indicators to a silly little gold mine.

Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Pip:
TB was likely several things.A waypoint,a rendezvous location and a headquarters/work camp.
Maybe not all at the same time,but with wood and water and Pima veggies nearby,the logistics make sense.Lots of mineral rich mountains in several directions as well,including the areas and mines you mention.There may have been old digs at most of the mines still in production or now abandoned,old digs which were simply rediscovered by those spanish or american prospectors who worked them at a later date.Probably still quite a few out there as well....waiting for one of us to stumble upon.
I suspect the QC flats to have also been at least a campsite,probably hohokam-pima-apache then spanish/mexican.If the last group used the flats as such,there may have been a small place set aside for worship as well and the ruins of at least a ramada might still be there.Perhaps the adobe ranch house I mentioned was built upon the ruins....?

Regards:SH.

Sendittoroberto
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

From the maps @ SMHS and my explorations it's a fair guess nothing was left I investigated and many mine were lost in massacres or rebellions in general. I have found Spanish mines all along the. established Coronado trail. That includes northern AZ. From what I see we may want to acknowledge that if it was defensible and rich they were there. The AZ historical society has lead Latin crosses on display, the same size as the Stone Cross. But there were other statue decorative pieces, indicating they were for San Xavier or another mission. They were buried at what became the Silverbell mines and these are about to be reopened again. The hypothesis being lead from silver mines was gold plated to make church diplays for the conversion of the Pimas. I can post photos later.
Robert

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Robert,

I believe there is no mine involved in the lead crosses you have mentioned. I believe this is what you meant:

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199 ... Story.html

I have a great deal of information on the Silverbell artifacts.

Take care,

Joe

Sendittoroberto
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

Perhaps I erred in my recall. I checked my notes and the statement at the museum simply says the Silverbell road on the way back from Picture Rocks. So yup I agree, not at the mine, on the mine road instead. Same questions arise. Why there ? When ? Lastly I suspect the Latin heart to be manufactured by the priest on site, knowing Latin, and the miners probably didn't. As I recall it was customary before then, to assign the priests the role of the IG for the King of Spain for their honesty and Latin. What do you think ?

PS Joe, will you be able to respond to my last person to person email ?

robert
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi Robert,

I did reply to your email, but may have just sent it to myself. If I receive an email at home I often forward it to our store, or the other way around. Anyway, I have sent the reply again a few short while ago.

Hope it's what you wanted.

You need to read both sides of the Silverbell debate to create your own informed opinion. I have been looking into it for a number of years, and have concluded that the artifacts were not authentic to the era claimed.

If you do a search on this site for "silverbell" and "Calalus" you will have a lot more pro and con to base your research on.

Take care,

Joe

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Robert,

I should add that I am not a believer in the Latin Heart and Stone Crosses. From what I have seen, heard and read, they are hoaxes.

This copy of the Latin Heart was made by Jim Hatt. He gifted it to a friend of mine who gave it to me. My friend knows a good deal more about the history of the original heart than I do. Neither of us would waste any time trying to see if it leads to anything of importance:

Image

Image

There are many "artifacts", maps and stories that have been created by people who are very familiar with the Superstition Mountains and the legends that are part of the range, as well as the early history of the Spanish. It's easy to be lead down many false treasure trails. Trust me, I know.

It may take you years to separate the wheat from the chafe. Don't take anything anyone says as "fact", including me.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

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Sendittoroberto
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

Hi Joe
Yes I have handled the equivalent copies at SMHS and photographed them. I believe everyone agrees they are fired clay, not stone. There is only one way to settle their authenticity in my court. The heart could be manufactured and be accurate in describing terrain but if it matches. Finds of things from the implied period, and if so lucky, gold, then the burden falls to one final question. If they reveal treasure who is to say it wasn't made recently to conceal someone's discovery. That makes it valid, but the author will probably remain faceless unless found buried as a mixture of bonesin a sealed cave or mine. If there is other fired clay objects that can be compared then we have a solution. The problem as always is getting the NFS to provide permits to do archeology due to the WildernessAct. Therefore some of us labor in faith to find evidence to pry the permit from the NFS. They want to see it before its dug up. That's a tough job but not impossible.
Keep a little hope for the faithful.
Robert

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

"Azmula" has written an article for the Superstition Mountain Journal which is now being sold at the museum in Goldfield, AZ.

Copies may be purchased here:

4087 North Apache Trail Apache Junction, AZ 85119
(480) 983-4888

It's a big change from the pre-book information he posted on another forum in the past. I assume Garry's (Novice) posts have generated this change in his history of the Stone Maps. It's an interesting read for anyone who follows the subject.

I assume his "new" information will put another delay in his long awaited book.

Since I have had a long time interest in the Stone Maps, I have been anxiously looking forward to reading Azmula's book. While I have long questioned his "historical facts", I have never doubted his efforts to research the subject.

Like others, I find it interesting that he did not put his name to the article.

Joe Ribaudo

azmula
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by azmula »

All,
I would just like to suggest that everyone interested in the article look at the facts and the email dates. Don’t worry about my name as it is much less important than the facts presented. My name does not make the facts more accurate.

My long awaited book’s long delivery is compliments of the accusations and ill-manners of a “member” on this forum who cannot ask a question without being accusatory in its delivery.

I will discuss my name no further. My friends know me and that is all that counts to me.

azmula

Cubfan64
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Cubfan64 »

Azmula,

I didn't realize you still followed or posted here. I met you a couple years ago at the Rendezvous, but other than listening to you, Jack Carlson and Greg talking about some things unrelated to the Stone Maps, I never got into any discussions with you.

I posted some comments/questions related to your article in another thread - would you be willing to get into a dialogue on the forum here about your findings?

Thanks,

Paul

count
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by count »

azmula

Please update the email address in your profile. Your email notifications are bouncing back from your ISP provider with the the following error - Recipient address rejected: User unknown

Thanks,

Webmaster

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Azmula,

"My long awaited book’s long delivery is compliments of the accusations and ill-manners of a “member” on this forum who cannot ask a question without being accusatory in its delivery."

I have always tried to treat you with respect. My posts to you are all still here, as I don't delete them. Anyone is welcome to judge for themselves. That might be a little difficult because of the posts that you and your friends have deleted.

There have been a number of attempts, by me, to change the animostiy that was caused by my asking you for the sources for your historical "facts", to put it behind us. Those were all done in private messages. Both side of those conversations are still available to me.

I won't post those messages as I feel it won't help you to just get over it. It's amazing how long you have held a grudge over......nothing.

Unless you are unable to provide sources for your historical statements, I don't see how my asking for them would delay your book one day. On the other hand, how could you let Joe Ribaudo have such a profound effect on your life/book?

Despite all of the new information concerning the authenticitly of the Stone Maps, I still look forward to reading your book.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

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