The Stone Maps

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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Pip,

I have not had any contact with Susan since she retired from NAU and moved to Mexico.
She was really looking forward to spending a great deal of time in the archives down there.
I assume she will be in California around this time to spend Christmas with her kids.

Very nice lady and more than generous with her time and prolific knowledge of early Mexico and the Southwest. You were lucky to have her as a mentor.

Hope you have a Very Merry Christmas!!!

Take care,

Joe
pippinwhitepaws
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

an to think, the first time i saw susan was while she was jaywalking across the road south of saint david...two little girls by one hand, an a baby in her arms...i had to stop to let her pass...little did i know that twenty years later this lady would guide my studies...
prolific knowledge is an understatement for sue.
merry christmas joe, hope your health improves
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

pippinwhitepaws wrote:thank you mike; for bringing it to my attention i am still dyslexic.
since joe has claimed to have spoken to susan, that you get the full run up from him, on all my peculiarities...
just because i can not spell, does not mean i am not intelligent or informed about the history of the southwest...
just the opposite is what most who speak to me find...

i am looking for an adobe, rock, ocotillo, structure used for prayer, built in the time of the spanish explorations of the southwest.
one, perhaps, is located within sight of the location the stone maps were found.

thanks again.
Pip,

Never implied that you weren't intelligent, or that you couldn't spell. Just when I saw visita spelled vista more than once, I just wanted to make sure everybody was on the same page.

Mike
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Pip:
While the peak or top of the ridgeline might be a good place for an observation post,I would think that a location on the flats,closer to Queen Creek and water, would be more likely to have any ruins of a visita.A map from 1747 shows a visita ...St.Fernando...near by the confluence of the San Pedro and Gila,but any visita in the immediate area of Tumlinson's discovery may have been built after 1747 and short lived,possibly destroyed by the apache,or even the Jesuits themselves just prior to 1768.The distance from St.Fernando seems about right,and if a route was planned from St. Fernando northward,perhaps to the ruins of Aguatubi,it may have been the first camp established along that route.

Regards:SH.
pippinwhitepaws
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

thanks somehiker...
my imaginary route is: if the good padre kino his southern missions to visit sante fe...i imagine he left tucumcari or thereabouts...went to the northern portions of the o'dham...just above casa grande...
i imagine he would have been on the north side of the Gila...since it was known for being a pesky river, changing its route of flow through the desert, with each season...

as you say, that ridge is a task to the top...and so it would be a great defensive position, especially if there was a shelter at the top...no need to go up there unless you were backed to the wall...
the confluence of the gila and the san pedro, js a bit more defined, than that of queen creek and the gila...i have seen the floods there...it is always impressive...a vast puddle of mud...
the firm ground is north of the gila...which again brings us to the pinnacle at florence junction.
as a camp, a rest, a visita...
there was a time...before the trail through Gonzalez pass was built...that the trail ran up to silver king on the west side of that pinnacle...it would intersect the trail from the board house to silver king... the trail from reavis ranch also intersected out there by joe's LDM...

mike...i apologize...i am a bit touchy about my lack of spelling skills.
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Donald,

I don't know how anyone, with dyslexia, who pursues and receives a Master's Degree from NAU could ever be considered anything but brilliant. You have nothing, spelling wise, to be "touchy about" or to apologize for.

When someone like Susan Deeds says you are "very intelligent", you can take that to the bank. Take that statement out of the vault once in awhile and polish it.

Merry Christmas,

Joe
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

http://www.pr.state.az.us/parks/TUPR/index.html

god...did i really write tucumcari instead of tubac?

so i believe that anyone , father kino, leaving tubac towards sante fe,, would do their best to cross the gila river as soon as possible, since the area around florence turns into a large mud bog in the slightest rain...
once on the north side of the gila...travel is still problematic...but high ground...
the last portion of the trail to sante fe, from tubac, or other areas in southern arizona, before the trail disappears into mountainous areas...and apache country...is that damn little peak above the stone map find area...
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Filling Station at Florence Junction about 1935.
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pippinwhitepaws
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

great photograph...they turned those bays into the cafe.

anyway...i have a problem with some rock art...or monument...not sure which...
the good padre's are said to have been around verde valley in 1539 or so...some texts appear to describe Montezuma castle...and the area around beaver creek...

i believe i brought this up once before....i found a huge cross...the typical modern cross...only it is up on a cliff face...above the old general crook trail.
at least i think i found a cross, and some others have looked up there an went..."duh. lived here all my life an never saw that"...
so i think i found a cross...but i sure feel too old to scurry up there an look for evidence of human interference.

so...whomever travels south on interstate 17...as one goes south out of verde valley...
from camp verde exit.
during the long straightaway up the hill, above you on the right, on the cliff...
see the cross?
over grown, on a 90% cliff face?

i sure would like some help on this one...has anyone else seen this monument?
Sendittoroberto
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

Hi , I would be willing to go check it, photograph it in hi-res with a telephoto. Perhaps you could post a Google Earth (c) coordinate for a good place to shoot from? I could email it or perhaps post it in the Gallery ? What do you think ?
Robert
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

sorry...numbers are difficult for me...if you travel out of camp verde, towards the interstate, you will see the cross up on the hillside above the interstate...
i traveled over there the other day, to visit someone on the far side of camp verde, and noticed the cross is far easier to see traveling northwest along the river..
which is where the spanish columns traveled.

so...let me know...it is rather impressive for me....i could be making it up...but.
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

OK, so I will take my best shot. I have good eyes for these things. In my experience ( since 1959 ) it's clear that until recent history anyone could mark up the landscape. I have found whole stories chiseled into volcanic stones suitable for petroglyphs at Hohokam sites but in very old German. Seems present day translators have difficulty because they evolved their writing rules during the time of Walz. In this instance the German was following a series of gold bearing foothills but traveling in dense scrub with placers by using old Hohokam canals.
May take a few weeks : I have a day job.
I will return here and post the photo ASAP.
Robert
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

howdy robert...
so?
here is a photo of the same type of cross you will/should see up above camp verde...
it seems mr hal crover, over on treasurenet, has posted a similar cross...

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/ ... 124.0.html

scroll down and look at his photograph...when i first saw it, i could have sworn he took the pic for me.

thanks...
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

Hmmm thank you! Good reference. The reason I am seeking these is I have found a rather large one in SM. this one however is a ' plus sign with bobbed tips. It is rather large so I had to photograph it from some distance. The only similar cross I can find is in paintings in museums in Mexico that are dated from the 1600s. It was on the banners of the Conquistadores. Now, I know it's real and not a Kenworthy type of 'looks like' ( bless his soul). It's in a campsite with other features worthy of attention. So I am trying to put it into some context with what posted info places with the origins of the Stone Maps. Joe has often posted the suggestion they come from before 1847 & I agree. Remember, the Peraltas were given rule of existing mines and the Pima Rebellion forced all to hide, cut & run (1751). It is pure imaginary but what if when Coronado passed through he marked promising areas that was the basis for mining later. The Stone Maps are 'drawn' in the style if maps for the King, hence the Kings Road. I recommend investigating 'Post Road Maps' of the period Santa Anna was burning the Alamo. Could the war have at its roots a desire to keep New Mexico, of which the SM was a piece. Too much conjecture for introductions. If the cross bears further checking I can post photos. I prefer tangibles. But like Joe I suspect some clues precede 1847. See, Coronado only found 6 villages & Moctazuma told him there were 7 that sent gold & silver tribute. Many forget Greg Davis's paper about the Zuni encampment on Superstition Mtn as reported by the Apaches. Coronado may have sought the 7th in the Supes but pressed on to the headwaters of the Gila. I do not know if Greg ever identified evidence of that 7th village.

Anyone ?
Robert
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Sendit:

Sounds similar to what Ron Eagle wrote back in 2009.

http://www.territorialnewspapers.com/ar ... age-03.pdf
and
http://www.territorialnewspapers.com/ar ... age-14.pdf

an interesting story.

Regards:SH.
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Cubfan64 »

Sendittoroberto wrote:Hmmm thank you! Good reference. The reason I am seeking these is I have found a rather large one in SM. this one however is a ' plus sign with bobbed tips. It is rather large so I had to photograph it from some distance. The only similar cross I can find is in paintings in museums in Mexico that are dated from the 1600s. It was on the banners of the Conquistadores. Now, I know it's real and not a Kenworthy type of 'looks like' ( bless his soul). It's in a campsite with other features worthy of attention. So I am trying to put it into some context with what posted info places with the origins of the Stone Maps. Joe has often posted the suggestion they come from before 1847 & I agree. Remember, the Peraltas were given rule of existing mines and the Pima Rebellion forced all to hide, cut & run (1751). It is pure imaginary but what if when Coronado passed through he marked promising areas that was the basis for mining later. The Stone Maps are 'drawn' in the style if maps for the King, hence the Kings Road. I recommend investigating 'Post Road Maps' of the period Santa Anna was burning the Alamo. Could the war have at its roots a desire to keep New Mexico, of which the SM was a piece. Too much conjecture for introductions. If the cross bears further checking I can post photos. I prefer tangibles. But like Joe I suspect some clues precede 1847. See, Coronado only found 6 villages & Moctazuma told him there were 7 that sent gold & silver tribute. Many forget Greg Davis's paper about the Zuni encampment on Superstition Mtn as reported by the Apaches. Coronado may have sought the 7th in the Supes but pressed on to the headwaters of the Gila. I do not know if Greg ever identified evidence of that 7th village.

Anyone ?
Robert
I don't recall Joe's theory on the Stone Maps fitting into any time frame prior to 1847 - you might want to check with him on that.

Do you have a copy of or a reference to where I can read Greg's story about a Zuni encampment on Superstition Mountain?
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

http://cpluhna.nau.edu/People/spanish_exploration.htm

"A group of colonists under Juan de Oñate were the first white people to see the San Francisco Peaks, which they named the Sierra Sin Agua (Mountains without water). Driven back to the Zuni pueblos and eventually to the Rio Grande by a bitter winter, Oñate commissioned one of his captains – Marcos Farfán de los Godos – to search for the riches instead.

Farfán and his eight companions came back from the timbered country of the Mogollon Rim with fantastic stories of Indians who lived on the odor of food alone, who slept underwater, and had ears large enough to shade a dozen people. The Viceroy, unamused by his presumption, recalled him to Mexico."
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

Greg's paper as I recall was on the rack @ SMHS. When I get home I will verify all citation info. It was one of those stapled papers with a jacket likely from a copy machine. I recall Greg as the author but I may err, he might have cited it ( as is his works from time to time).

In regards to Joe I have. Even seeking a way to connect with him ( a little help ?). But my interpretation stems from reading the previous pages in this forumWe now have a Peralta connection to a Priest in Mexico (1765) named, 
Grijalba. Next we have Azmula coming to the forum trying to find information on a family from Mexico named, Grivalba (Grijalba?) and their possession of a Stone Map. Rounding out this little circle of events and people we have a man named Pedro Ortega being murdered outside the front door of Jacob Waltz (with Waltz's shotgun) by a man named, Selso Grijalva. The circle is completed by another man named, Genio Grijalva who is mentioned on page 139 in "Part 1" of Thomas Glover's excellent book. 

Is all of this a coincidence or the completion of a family circle that had it's roots in a priest named, Juan Joseph de Grijalba back in 1765 in Mexico? 

Could Waltz have received his mine through information that came through a family connection to the good Father? 

By the way Harry, does any of this qualify as "new information"? 

History bites again. 

Respectfully, 

Joe Ribaudo


One of many strings about 'keep an open mind' about the possability. So I wanted to ask him if he still thinks its possible.
Robert

Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total. .
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Robert,

That post is from 2003. In those days, I still firmly believed in Jesuit Treasure. Since then, I have done a lot of research and no longer believe they hid such a treasure. To be sure, they did hide the church valuables when attack by hostile tribes was eminent. That was usually recovered when peace returned, along with the priests.

All of the information I wrote, which you quote, is documented history. It's available to anyone who cares to look. I had a number of conversations with Dr. Radding and she wrote a nice inscription in her book for me. That book is full of interesting history.

Initiating personal contact with the authors is a good way to get additional historical details that might not be included in their books. That would include personal (qualified) opinions.

You may contact me anytime: [email protected]

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Sources

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Robert,

This is the post that followed your quote:

[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]Azmula,

In a previous post I said:

"Azmula has a right to be "confident". I have always given him kudos for his research, however, agreement with his research does not equal acceptance of his conclusions. I have a great deal of respect for the work that Azmula has done. I would not be comfortable getting into a Stone Map "pissing contest" with the man. "Man's got to know his limitations."

I don't want to go back and quote all the "nice" things I have said about you and your obvious, extensive, research. I think the above statement sums up my feelings quite well.





You said:
"Joe,
I am not going to play your games. I let your last two posts on the Sone Map thread slide assuming that everyone will see the unsupported "red herrings" and missing timeline facts put forth are meaning less to the 18th century study of the map's origin. It is your historical reputation not mine in jeopardy. BUT..."

Azmula,

I am hard pressed to understand your heated response to my two posts.
Neither post was addressed to you and yet, you have taken it as some kind of personal attack. I gave you the opourtunity to come up with some facts, backed by sources, and you were silent. a private message or E-mail would have worked just fine. Since you stated that the Jesuits were back in Arizpe and tied it to 1847, I assumed you had researched that fact and would know the name of the Jesuit Priest who returned. I saw no harm in asking for his name.
My "unsupported red herrings" for the information on the Peralta/Moreno/ Father Grijalba connection can be found in the following source:

"The Wandering Peoples" Colonialism, Ethnic Spaces, and Ecological Frontiers in Northwestern Mexico, 1700-1850" by, Cynthia Radding 1977.
Page Number: 187
If you are interested in her sources for the information I will be happy to supply you with that information as well.

My "unsupported red herrings" for the date of the restoration of the Jesuits to Mexico, can be found in the following source:

CATHOLIC ENCLYCLOPEDIA: The restored Jesuit (1814-1912).

To save you time, here is the exact passage:

MEXICO

In Mexico (New Spain) Jesuit missionaries began their work in 1571, and prior to their expulsion, in 1767, they numbered 678 members of whom 468 were natives. They had over 40 colleges or seminaries, 5 residences, and 6 missionary districts, with 99 missions. The mission included Cuba, lower California, and as far south as Nicaragua. Three members of the suppressed Society who were in Mexico at the time of the Restoration formed a nucleus for its re-establishment there in 1816. In 1820, there were 32, of whom 15 were priests and 3 scholastics, in care of 4 colleges and 3 seminaries. They were dispersed in 1821. Although invited back in 1843, they could not agree to the limitations put on their activities by General Santa Anna, nor was the prospect favourable in the revolutionary condition of the country. Four of their number returning in 1854, the mission prospered, and in spite of two dispersions, 1859 and 1873, it has continued to increase in number and activity. In Augest, 1907, it was reconstituted a province. It has now 326 members with four colleges, 12 residences, 6 mission stations among the Tarahumara, and a novitiate (see also Mexico; Pious Fund of the Californias)."

It could be that I have misread all of this material, and you will soon show me your own sources for dates and events which you have put forth in this forum. In truth, I believe that is possible and I will have no problem saying my sources are incorrect and that my "historical reputation" is "in jeopardy" as if I ever had any such thing. :lol: I am a fan of history, not a student or scholar.
I look forward to seeing your own sources for your historical comments.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

Hi Joe !
I've been trying to connect up with you for I have questions the old postings raise for me. Perhaps here or off line, your choice !
I need new feedback on the question, because I read all the pasted copies before.
I was left with the impression you thought it was possible but no evidence that the Stone Maps have roots preceding 1847. Right or wrong : today ?
I ask because of the map @ SMHS that has written in Spanish that the mines in operation in the Supes were given over to the Peraltas by the Govoner of New Mexico in Sant Fe in 1753. It's interesting that this would follow the return of Pima miners following the revolt of 1751. As it turns out(as I am sure you are aware) the Stone Cross that fits the outline on the Stone Map says the treasure of the church of Santa Fe is in a cave on Someo Mtn. This mountain name comes from one by that name in the alps. To it implies many Germans were in fact one of many Germanic groups. It implies the engineers of 1751 were Swiss. The Germans & Swiss were hard rock miners used to building good trails in extreme country and they joined the Spanish around 1560s ( I think).

Lastly I was asked to give the citation for the presence of Zunis. As usual I have an averGe memory. The story was in a booklet by Greg Davis but it is an assortment of citations he offers for study. The booklet is titled "Early NewspaperArticles of The Superstition Mountains and The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine. I paid $7.50 for mine. So he is not the author but the Librarian offering citations. Page 9 says the Zuni story was published In the San Francisco Daily Examminer , Oct 27, 1889 pp 3 cols 1-3. The original author being one C. L. Mosher. I am sure Greg would caution us all about the reliability of the press. But in reading I find the usual level of legend credability. By that I mean it offers enough to warrant my search for any physical evidence.
A final point. The apaches were actively mining gold and silver in NM at mines still producing today. They are exactly at the SE corner of the Reevis coordinates for the Peralta Land Grant. My associate, a mining engineer from there said long ago as the pit was enlarged they opened up, yes, Spanish hexagonal funnel mines. Today that is air space over the pit. He did not know of the land grant. He asked a good question. What minerals are at the other 3 corners ? Was the 1753 map one of many that identified mines across the described land grant and all were already in existance ? Perhaps the Peraltas promised to recover the 1751 stash in 1753 and in exchange they retook all mines closed by the Pima rebellion and each mine owner had their own style of mapping?
Yes, all a fairy tale.
So after I find a good view of the 'Conquistadore cross' I will post it. Where would you suggest I put it ?

Respectfully Robert
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

so, once again i have interfered with a previous conversation.

two things.
the pueblo's traveled to jerome area for paint material...not quite turquoise is great for dye an paint.
salt mines in verde valley, near camp verde, provided for the pueblo people.
mostly hopi, but i suspect that some of the other pueblo people would travel to this area for materials.
but...to say the zuni were here...or the acoma, or what ever pueblo is stretching historical fact.

the pueblo revolt was in 1680...this led to spanish people running back down to around el passo area...an in arizona?

since the gila was the interstate for commerce between tribes...some interaction was bound to occur.
sorry for interrupting what appears to be a standing disagreement.
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Sendittoroberto »

Welcome
There are no arguments. There is only a large amount of information laid on the table to arrange.
Wickpedia : " The Pima Revolt, or the O'odh am Uprising and the Pima Outbreak, was a revolt of Pima native Americans in 1751 against colonial forces in Spanish Arizona and one of the major northern frontier conflicts in early New Spain."

If you search further of Zuniega you will find he was brought to Tucson where I reside, to build the Presidio and another further north to protect the Spanish migration north as it resumed, after the Pimas settled with the King of Spain by having 4 Jesuit priests sent out of the 'New Mexico' area forever. According to records, the Pimas settled with the King in the Spring of 1752, but it took another year for everyone to get the word, make plans, and get back to business as usual. That would be 1753.

You do raise a very important point too. When Cortez and Coronado invaded anywhere, they always enlisted the aid of the 'runner up' tribe that had a grudge, to act as guides into the stronger tribes area. This means that when Coronado would pass through an area he would have indian guides that followed many of the routes you have described, for the reasons you describe. However, the Apaches mining metal in NM is a historical fact, as were the Spanish funnel mines. It would seem that gold returned to the Superstitions may have originated there, as they had no problems using it in trade. Trade in Santa Fe with the Apaches began in peace at the onset. But once the Spanish started snatching problem indians or weak individuals alone, and send them to Sonora or Cuba to work in mines there, trade with the Apaches turned into a game. They raided one competing Spanish locale to trade the goods to their enemies. Then they returned the favor. As you say, this went on a long time.

As for Zuni and mines, the records in Aztec manuscripts and records of the time from the Spanish make it clear that Montezuma did indeed go north. The records of 1859 by investigating historians that knew Cochise, relied on his protection to pass by Geronimo, and reach the Zunis. Once there they provided the evidence that Montezuma had been there, and predicted the coming of Cortez. The Aztecs built alters and provided the Zuni building knowledge etc. They had been trading North with all tribes. If you look you will see mummified parrots in NM and the 4 Corners region, from deep in Mexican jungles. Feathers were some of the more exceptional trade goods requiring something of great value, and red paint or turquoise while used were easily obtained in Mexico. Gold and Silver were another thing. And, Montezuma was a 'god'. Hence, permitted to acquire and use it.

sincerely Robert

Sincerely Robert
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

parrot feathers an copper bells...yes.

the Aztec came from the north...it is not a big jump to believe they traveled north again.

zuni engineers?
the famous lost presidio of tucson?
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