The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Post Reply
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

If you don't have the book, I could scan the pages and post them for you.

Best-Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

It was not a "smart ass" comment, but a serious question. Are you kidding?

You know I have the book, so I would say your offer to scan the pages might be considered to be smart ass.

Next question. What do you think pages 64 & 65 are, factually, telling us? Is it your opinion that we should take the words of Father Leon as fact?

Take care,

Joe
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

I was simply relating the words of someone much who around at the this all happened. He was there, while neither of us was. Much closer to the subject, don't you think?

I made no statement as to the truth or baseness of the Dominican Father's words. Those that disbelieve Jesuit Wealth will disbelieve his words. Those that take into account the fortune in Jesuit Wealth discovered in Brazil that we are so familiar with now, may give them some credence.

Quien Sabe?

Can you state for an absolute fact that what the Father said is totally untrue? Of course not. Just like (so far) what he said can not be proven beyond doubt.

Best-Mike
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

God, I must be tired.

That first sentence should read:

I was simply relating the words of somebody who was around at the time all this happened.

Mike
alan m
Part Timer
Posts: 147
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:43 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello Oroblanco
The Jesuits were not rounded up by the Spanish authority, there is a description of the events in the introduction to Rudo Ensayo. The Jesuits were told by the provincial to travel to Matape for a meeting, some of the Jesuits questioned what it was about but none of them expected to be arrested. They traveled to Matape as free people and it was there that they were arrested, put in chains and marched to Vera Cruz where the survivours were placed aboard ships and sent back to spain to stand trial for treason.
Juan Nentvig died along the way to Vera Cruz as did numerous others.

Best Regards
Alan
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Alan,

Actually, they were rounded up by the Spanish. The one instance you speak of is only one. Read Father Och SJ's journal about the suppression.

Mike
alan m
Part Timer
Posts: 147
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:43 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Thank-you Mike
Och's is the only book I havn't finished.
I had thought that it seemed a streatch that all the Jesuits just went to Matape to be arrested.

Best Regards
Alan
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Garry,

Great job on the site. It's quickly become THE SOURCE for information on the factual information and evidence on the LDM.

Here is a bit of additional information on the Stone Maps: Much has been made about the FBI agent's statement to Bob Corbin, but he believes the stones are a fraud. Not much of a conversation seems to have taken place. Bob asked what they thought of the stones, and the agent stated they believed they were over 100 years old. End of story. That could mean himself and the janitor in the next room. :wink:

He did not state they were ever sent to the FBI Lab, and Bob personally doubts that was the case.

Mike,

"We know that Tumlinson wrote a manuscript about his history with the stone maps."

I should think the manuscript would have to be produced and examined by professionals before we can make such a positive statement as, "We Know......"

I believe there are many of us who have seen copies of manuscripts, diaries.....etc., and believe there is some question of their authenticity. These items have been accepted as the real thing by the Dutch Hunting community for many years now.

A number of stories that have been accepted as Gospel have been debunked in the last few years, such as, IMHO, the Frank Alkire story.

Using Garry's site for research is a good idea for anyone serious about the LDM or any other legends concerning the Superstition Mountains. Having said that, I believe we should question every belief we have accepted as "clues/evidence".

That would include everything I have just written.

Take care,

Joe
Joe,

Wise words indeed, but...............

One thing I can tell you beyond any doubt whatsoever is that Travis Tumlinson's manuscript exists. It does not need a forensic examination as it's history from Travis Tumlinson's Typewriter all the way to it's current owner is well documented. It is currently being used as part of a book, so it will not be shared in whole, but I may be able to get the owner to answer some very specific questions regarding Tumlinson and the Stone Maps that I can share.

Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

That sounds good. I will look forward to reading the book, but.........I would not trust my own authentication of any document or manuscript. It follows that I would question your own certainty.

I would refer you to the documentation that was presented by James Addison Reavis. At first blush, it was pretty convincing. Historically accurate documents/accounts, mixed with pure fiction can sound very authentic.

Just my opinion, so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,

That sounds good. I will look forward to reading the book, but.........I would not trust my own authentication of any document or manuscript. It follows that I would question your own certainty.

I would refer you to the documentation that was presented by James Addison Reavis. At first blush, it was pretty convincing. Historically accurate documents/accounts, mixed with pure fiction can sound very authentic.

Just my opinion, so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Like I said, "Wise words" but in this case unnecessary. The chain of custody is unbroken and well documented. One of the few things associated with the stone maps that can be said about. LOL

Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Is that "chain of custody" evidence available to the public to view? If not, can you tell us why it isn't?

Thanks,

Joe
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

Not currently public. I happened upon these folks by a very lucky coincidence.

They asked me not to name them publicly yet. When the time comes, everything will be completely open for anybody to look at.

I am currently trying to get some answers to very specific questions (that I have had), and they are trying to decide what is okay to say that won't take too much away from the book. If I had the manuscript, I would be doing the same thing. You would want to leak some tidbits here and there, but nothing that would adversely affect the bottom line.

There is also some (actually very little) info that I have been told and asked to keep it to myself for now. One thing I can promise; I will pass on as much as they give me permission to and nothing they don't want out (as always with me with everybody).

Best-Mike
alan m
Part Timer
Posts: 147
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:43 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello
Just a quick question
How can the chain of custody evidence be unbroken or above scrutiny if it is secret?
Best
Alan
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

alan m wrote:Hello
Just a quick question
How can the chain of custody evidence be unbroken or above scrutiny if it is secret?
Best
Alan
Simple:
They asked me not to name them publicly yet. When the time comes, everything will be completely open for anybody to look at.

Mike
RR-ElectricAngel
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:26 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by RR-ElectricAngel »

Hello everyone, this is my first post. I wanted to mention that the Travel Channel just aired Ritches Etched In Stone on the episode "Eastland Disaster and Smuttynose Murders". It discusses the Peralta Stones and a possible connection with the Lost Dutchman Mine. It is only 2:49 long but very interesting. Some of the story seems different than what I read in relation to Waltz and the way he aquires the mine. Anyway, enjoy...

Image

Here's the link: http://www.travelchannel.com/Video/rich ... tone-16522
alan m
Part Timer
Posts: 147
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:43 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Should be interesting, thanks for the post.
But; the topic of the stone tablets is all but dead here, the latest word is that they were faked by tumlinson himself, most on here believe that.
Alan
TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by TC ASKEY »

Alan,

No doubt the information Garry discovered has created a lot of skeptics when it comes to the stone maps.
But it does not explain the back door that someone left prior to Tumlinsons involvement.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

Hope all is well with you.

Instead of being so cryptic, why now just give us the story of the "back door".

Thanks,

Joe
alan m
Part Timer
Posts: 147
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:43 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

TC ASKEY wrote:Alan,

No doubt the information Garry discovered has created a lot of skeptics when it comes to the stone maps.
But it does not explain the back door that someone left prior to Tumlinsons involvement.
Terry
Just for clarity, I do not believe that Travis Tumlinson carved the stone tablets, they are of Jesuit origin and do not lead to the LDM
Alan
TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

Not trying to be cryptic at all. Most dutch hunters have at least seen a photo of picture rock.
The petroglyph just south of Charlebois.
Anyone that can't see a turtle touching the bottom of a capital letter D, has failed Stone Maps 101.
No story. Self explanatory.


Alan,

I agree. The stones have nothing to do with the ldm.
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

TC ASKEY wrote
Terry
Just for clarity, I do not believe that Travis Tumlinson carved the stone tablets, they are of Jesuit origin and do not lead to the LDM
Alan
I realize this post was directed at Terry, but I would like to ask what was it that led you to conclude that the stone maps are of Jesuit origin, specifically? Is there some marking or combination of markings on them which indicates to you that they are of Jesuit origin? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
alan m
Part Timer
Posts: 147
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:43 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Oroblanco wrote:TC ASKEY wrote
Terry
Just for clarity, I do not believe that Travis Tumlinson carved the stone tablets, they are of Jesuit origin and do not lead to the LDM
Alan
I realize this post was directed at Terry, but I would like to ask what was it that led you to conclude that the stone maps are of Jesuit origin, specifically? Is there some marking or combination of markings on them which indicates to you that they are of Jesuit origin? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
You and I have greatly different ideas about the stone tablets, and while I respect your opinion, I have no wish to get sucked back into a debate over the tablets authenticity where every other regular on this forum sits in waiting to pounce upon the greenhorn
Enough said
Alan
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Alan M wrote
You and I have greatly different ideas about the stone tablets, and while I respect your opinion, I have no wish to get sucked back into a debate over the tablets authenticity where every other regular on this forum sits in waiting to pounce upon the greenhorn
Enough said
Alan
Where we may have greatly different ideas is of little consequence as I have no intention of trying to change your mind on the stone tablets; what I was asking was what specifically said "Jesuit" to you about them. A simple question, should be easy to give a simple answer. If what ever convinced you of a Jesuit origin is not shown on the stone tablets, that should be easy to say as well. I was just curious as to what led you to that conclusion. Thank you in advance should you decide to answer, and I for one will not be "waiting to pounce" - I can not find anything on the stones nor about them which indicates indisputably Jesuit to me and would like to know what does point to them. Any clarification would be appreciated.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Somehiker
Part Timer
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 6:00 pm

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

The lack of any mark upon the Stone Maps which would serve to identify the maker(s) is one factor which serves to prolong the mystery.That may have been the intent,as well as a reason for separated caches.Any attempt to prove who carved the stones is likely to fail,without access to what lies along and at the end of each of the trails.Even then,those who do successfully complete the search using what is on the stones, may choose not to reveal all of their findings.To do so might only legally complicate matters regarding ownership and prolong any battle over same.

Regards:SH.
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Oroblanco »

Somehiker wrote
The lack of any mark upon the Stone Maps which would serve to identify the maker(s) is one factor which serves to prolong the mystery.That may have been the intent,as well as a reason for separated caches.Any attempt to prove who carved the stones is likely to fail,without access to what lies along and at the end of each of the trails.Even then,those who do successfully complete the search using what is on the stones, may choose not to reveal all of their findings.To do so might only legally complicate matters regarding ownership and prolong any battle over same.
While the identity of the creator may not be determinable at this point, it is possible to speculate. Catholicism has a rather rich history of symbolism, for instance each Saint has a set of symbols associated with him or her. The Peralta stones have a number of symbols on them, such as the horse and knife; a horse can be a symbol of St Eligius, who just happens to be the patron saint of goldsmiths for instance. Two Saints most closely associated with the Jesuits are St Ignatius (Loyola) and St Francis Xavier, whose associated symbols are Eucharist, chasuble with Jesuit-style collar, book, often inscribed with "Ad majorem dei gloriam", or the letters AMDG, cross (Ignatius) and crucifix, bell, vessel, crab with a cross (Xavier) respectively. Alternately St Francis, founder of the Franciscan Order which was also very active in the American southwest, has wolf, birds, fish, skull, stigmata. The Franciscans also often have clasped hands as a symbol.

This was what I was asking Alan about; for he is not the first or only person to have associated the stones with the Jesuits, and I was curious if there is some set of symbols that when put together point to the Jesuits. I can not find any Saint whose symbols match up with the various symbols we see on the Peralta stones, which does not mean there is not one that is a perfect match. There are some tantalizing examples, St Bartholomew for one, is usually associated with a knife and a human skin, and often depicted with a book. The prominent heart on the stones, may be an allusion to St John of God or St Teresa of Avila, whose symbols include an arrow and book as well; there is an arrow on one of the map stones we might note.

<St Bartholomew image, note prominent knife>
Image

Of course if there were only a prominent "IHS" or "OFM"somewhere on the stones, the speculation would be pretty simplified. Another possible link to the symbols on the stones could relate to the mysterious woman who supposedly traveled through the southwest teaching Christianity before the Spanish arrived, or I should say in the early 1600's; Mother <or Sister> Maria de Jesus de Agreda, usually reported as dressed in blue. Spanish explorers and missionaries reported encountering many stories of this mystery nun among wild tribes. In this theory, the priest/witch figure might be Mother Maria, spreading the word of the cross along the path of the frontier <eighteen places> and so on.

Just some speculation, was curious if anyone had identified the symbols in a way that would make a fairly solid case.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Post Reply