The Stone Maps

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Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Hi Wayne:
Possibly a "triangle",rather than an arrow.Similar to that on the Heart Stone,for instance.
Seems to be a strong connection between "hearts" and "triangles" on several of the stones.The "shaft" may emphasize that connection.

Regards:SH.
zentull
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by zentull »

Nah it's an arrow to point, but it could be someone scratched it in at an unknown date in the last 30-49 years. It's real faint and isn't in any other pictures I have seen. If you change the contrast it stays similar to the heart, sonora mex and the symbol just below and to the left of the heart. My guess is they were all barely scratched or marked since they look very different compared to everything else etched into the stone or the scratches from the mis handling over the years under the changes in contrast, etc. Could be whatever was used left some residue and that accounts for the smearing?

Those areas all show a smearing as well so it could be markings that werent finished or not needed and were attempted to be rubbed off.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Yes,it is definitely there,a short line leading from the left lobe of the added heart to an added three sided triangle below the "A" of "COAZON".The directional arrow across the dagger on the Trail Map is not three sided,nor is that at the beginning of the trail,ergo my suspicion that the symbol is actually a "triangle".The proximity of two triangles above the heart,with a trail connection as well as the relative topography,appear to place the entire sequence of scratchings in logical order for me.It also appears to highlight the location of the "D" on the handle of the dagger of the Trail Map,if a pointer it be..
Interesting as well,that there are so many such scratchings on the P/H stone,and few,if any on the balance of the stones.It does appear to me that they were done with something like the point of a knife during a briefing.The words look to be "carved",including the "P" of pedro,and may have been added post discovery IMO.

Regards:SH.
zentull
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by zentull »

Phil Reinhardt will be on channel 12 sometime during their morning program starting at 7am on Wednesday July 14th. A friend called from the station about the missing hikers and told me Phil was doing a bit about the Peralta Stones in a segment. Will see if he can get me a video of the segment I can link to for everyone.
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Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Thanks Wayne.
Regards:SH.
Roger
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New Details On The Stone Maps

Post by Roger »

I spent 5 days in Phoenix earlier this month and got to spend 2.5 days digging in Greg Davis' collections which is always an adventure. I did come across three pieces of information that are of interest on the Stone Maps as follows:

1. In the Ron Lorenz File there is a 4 page hand written overview of Nobel Dwyer's involvement with the Stone Maps which I suspect was written by Ron. Nobel claimed to have found the Stone Maps in 1947 based on information given him by an Indian Squaw he had married. Nobel wanted nothing to do with the stones and gave them to Travis Tumlinson in Oregon. Can't say I put much stock in this version of the origin of the Stone Maps. The key point is that Ron wrote that the photo of the Stone Maps was made on the bumper of a car that Ron said was a 1946 Dodge

2. I also went through the MOEL file in the Richard Peck collection and found a letter from either Mel Brower or Bert Love (2nd set of MOEL directors after Clarence Mitchell forced out) that states that the Stone Maps were photographed on the bumper of a 1946 Dodge auto. I thought I had made a copy of this letter to bring back, but for some reason did not get it. I will check the file again in October around the Rendezvous and get the exact details on it. Interesting that here are two independent written statements that the Stone Maps were photographed on the bumper of a 1946 Dodge!

3. In a letter dated 4/1/1965 to Bert Love, Mel Brower describes an interview he had with Bob Bair, who had know Travis Tumlinson in Oregon and had only seen the two map stones and the heart insert. Here is a quote from Mel's letter:

"Bob Bair at this point stated: there is something I think you should know. The zeros cut across the back side of the heart were carved there by Travis Tumlinson himself after he found the stones. He stated that Travis did this to throw anyone off guard who might see or steal the stones (I rather suspect he did this to further entice financial assistance). In other words the 6 zeros cut across the heat are Phoney."

The quality of the six zero's on the back of the heart always struck me as very crude compared to the quality level of the other stone markings. Guess this provides a reason for their appearance.

Roger
Cubfan64
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Cubfan64 »

Wow Roger! Excellent detective work! I would swear I had the 1939 Olds nailed for the vehicle, but I'll look into a 46 dodge and see what I can find.

The two most interesting things to me are #1: No mention of the Priest/Horse stone seen by someone who knew Tumlinson and #2: The contention that Tumlinson caved the zero's.

I would agree that the zero's look pretty crude compared to other stuff on the stones, but if that really is true, I'd be concerned about what else Tumlinson may have "carved" on his own!

You planning on making it to the Rendezvous again this year Roger?
Roger
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Roger »

Paul,

Yes, if nothing gets in the way, I plan to attend the 2010 Rendezvous and will probably spend at least a week in the Phoenix area. Can't resist spending some more time in Greg's collections!! I have made all 5 of the Rendezvous' so far so hate to quit on it now. Are you still planning to bring your wife this year? She might like having outdoor pizza at Oregano's in Scottsdale where we dined last year.

Roger
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

Hope you and the family are doing well. Glad to see you are still posting here.

Have to agree with Paul......very nice work digging up those stories. The more I learn about the Stone Maps, the more I doubt their authenticity.

We are looking forward to seeing you again in Oct. Carolyn and I are planning on being at the camp again on Thursday afternoon. Hope to be joined by a few others looking for some quiet time together.

Take care,

Joe
rfj
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by rfj »

Cubfan, Roger, Joe and all, dont know how much validity I would put in Mr lorenz and the gentlemen from Moels info, because a 46
dodge isnt even close. Not to the common picture posted anyway. There may be another picture Im not aware of using a Dodge, but the picture Ive seen is a 39 olds. Dont think thats too important, but it is what it is. Looking forward to seeing you gentlemen at the Rendevous. Ralph Johnson
Cubfan64
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Cubfan64 »

rfj wrote:Cubfan, Roger, Joe and all, dont know how much validity I would put in Mr lorenz and the gentlemen from Moels info, because a 46
dodge isnt even close. Not to the common picture posted anyway. There may be another picture Im not aware of using a Dodge, but the picture Ive seen is a 39 olds. Dont think thats too important, but it is what it is. Looking forward to seeing you gentlemen at the Rendevous. Ralph Johnson
Hi Ralph - yup, I looked through a bunch of images online last night of 46 dodge vehicles and I couldn't find any car or truck that came close to matching what I see in the B&W photo.

Your 39 Olds still looks like the best match to me too.
Roger
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Roger »

Ralph,

I also checked the web for photo's of a 1946 Dodge. The sedan version was certainly not it as the headlights had been integrated into the fender that year. The pickup's still had the pod headlights as they didn't change the tooling very quickly after the war on them. However, the 1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, and 1948 pickups did not match the photo at all.

Interesting that two different sources would give the year/make of the vehicle and one from an individual that lived in the same area as Travis Tumlinson and knew him. Such is the challenge in digging in 50 year old material and trying to fit the pieces together.

Good catch on the discrepancy.

Roger
rfj
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by rfj »

Roger, that is interesting that two independent sources mention the vehicle as a 46 Dodge. Perhaps Tumlinsons personal vehicle was a 46 Dodge but the picture was taken on a friends vehicle(39 olds) that was with him cleaning up the stones or whatever. It does seem to much of a coincidence for there not to be a Dodge in there somewhere. Its not that important I guess, but interesting. Ralph
Cubfan64
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Cubfan64 »

It's also possible there are other photos out there somewhere with them mounted on a 46 Dodge - who knows.
Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Likely a misidentification of the vehicle in the same photo that we already have.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/autohistor ... [email protected]/

similar hood louver and grill layout with bucket style headlights on this '46 Dodge Pickup.

SH.
Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:
You recently declared,

"It's pretty simple, really. I don't believe they were found at all. I believe they were

created by Chuck Aylor and Ted DeGrazia, and maybe a little help from their friends."


The theory that Ted DeGrazia was the creator of the Horse/Priest Stone is certainly an

interesting one.If another Stone Map book theory was to be published,I would think that something with a solid DeGrazia connection would stand a good

chance of success.Rather than being relegated to marketing and sales via specialty

bookstores and publications dealing with lost treasures,such a book might have a broader

appeal to other categories of history buffs and those interested in American artists as

well.

For those already familiar with DeGrazia's stature as an artist and promoter of Arizona and

it's native peoples,it would certainly cause some controversy for an author,proof in hand,

to place Ted DeGrazia,Arizona's "Irreverent Angel",at the head of a group of fellow

conspirators devoted to the creation of a myth and perpetuation of a securities fraud.

Such a revelation would undoubtedly bring greater exposure to both the volume and it's

author,as well as the author's close friends and supporters.The value of the stones

themselves,post publication of this history,could very well exceed that of any previously

known work by DeGrazia,leaving the Flagg Foundation as sole owner of these priceless works

of art.

A "pyramid scheme",with Chuck Aylor depicted by DeGrazia as a "false prophet",in the role of

a priest standing atop a pyramidal stone pulpit,with the investors of Moel finding

themselves penniless at the bottom would make a good figurative analogy when carved in

stone.Likewise the self depiction of DeGrazia as a horse,a common subject of the artist's

works,trodding a "dangerous trail" of SEC fraud and "grazing" on the life savings of those

hapless investors who lived "north of the river" would make for provocative subject

material.That neither Degrazia nor Aylor came forward during the gathering storm of the Moel

investigation would speak volumes as to their true character and intent,as well as that of

their assistants,the Tumlinsons,the LaFrance,s and of course the Mitchels,in such a hoax.

By extension,the assertion that Ted DeGrazia buried eighteen of his prized paintings in the

Superstition Mountains,a claim made by a close friend and confidante of DeGrazia,Bob

Ward,could prove,and be proven by that same association to be a,"with a little help from my

friends",way of assisting Bob Ward financially through future sales of his own book,"Ripples

of Lost Echos",while at the same time buying his silence on the true origin and purpose of

the stone maps.

These are merely a few recent thoughts,based on a few of the the "what if's and why's" of a

DeGrazia connection to the Stone Maps,as proposed by a number of writers of website posts

and articles on the subject.I do not mean to disparage you or others who believe in such a link.I merely wish to suggest the ramifications of the theory and how an aspiring author could have a field day with some of the information on the subject.

Regards:SH.
Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

An interesting Coat of Arms,from a Jesuit book about all the neat stuff in the new world.

Image

Regards:SH.
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

Interesting. You believe this ties the Jesuits to the Stone Maps?

Joe
Somehiker
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Somehiker »

Nah.It's too tenuous to be considered anything more than circumstantial evidence on it's own.
Just thought that it might prompt a bit of activity,and maybe even some serious interest in possible connections.

Regards:SH.
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

That being the case, it fits right in with the majority of evidence on the Stone Maps......as well as the LDM.

Take care,

Joe
alan m
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello Joe
In response to your initial question as to why there are only the three stones displayed on the bumper of Tumlinsons car and no sign of the Horse Priest tablet.
This appears to me to indicate that Travis did not find the horse/priest tablet or have it with him when he found the remaining three tablets.
My research has indicated the possibility that it was Travis's father who had discovered the horse/priest tablet and through years of research discovered the probable location of the remaining stones and being too old to search he sent his son.
All of the information needed to locate the remaining tablets is encrypted on the horse/priest tablet and it is not the 8 paces north story that Clarence Mitchell told.
Best Regards
Alan
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Travis Tumlinson told the story of how he found the stone maps to his uncle Robert when he temporarily let him take them.

Everything else is supposition.

We know that Tumlinson wrote a manuscript about his history with the stone maps. Nobody has ever seen it. We also know that Mitchell knew Janey Tumlinson (daughter) may have taken it with her when she went to live with family in Texas after the deaths of her father then mother. He MAY have gotten the manuscript from her and used the information from it to write his own book "Superstition Treasures"

Best-Mike
alan m
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by alan m »

Hello Mike
I have a copy of Superstition Treasures and in it Clarence states that the 8-N-P were key symbols used in locating the remaining tablets.
Do you believe that these symbols are for that purpose?
I did some calculations and it seems that if given an average distance of 3 feet per pace, the lateral distance from any line of 8 paces is less than 3 feet.
The main point is that this seems to be a lame method of secreting and encrypting the information.
I would expect the distance to be something more realistic like perhaps 100 yards? just to pick a number.
Clarence also states that Tunlinson i.e. Frank, dug all around the area of his first attempt to a distance of about 5 feet, he should have discovered the other tablets on the first try.
I am pressing this point for two reasons
First the starting point of the map must coincide with a logical point on the horse/priest tablet.
Second, The tablets inference as to the starting point being Santa Fe works if the horse/priest tablet had been found there and was the first tablet to be discovered.
As allways I welcome your comments, pro or con.
Best Regards
Alan
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Great job on the site. It's quickly become THE SOURCE for information on the factual information and evidence on the LDM.

Here is a bit of additional information on the Stone Maps: Much has been made about the FBI agent's statement to Bob Corbin, but he believes the stones are a fraud. Not much of a conversation seems to have taken place. Bob asked what they thought of the stones, and the agent stated they believed they were over 100 years old. End of story. That could mean himself and the janitor in the next room. :wink:

He did not state they were ever sent to the FBI Lab, and Bob personally doubts that was the case.

Mike,

"We know that Tumlinson wrote a manuscript about his history with the stone maps."

I should think the manuscript would have to be produced and examined by professionals before we can make such a positive statement as, "We Know......"

I believe there are many of us who have seen copies of manuscripts, diaries.....etc., and believe there is some question of their authenticity. These items have been accepted as the real thing by the Dutch Hunting community for many years now.

A number of stories that have been accepted as Gospel have been debunked in the last few years, such as, IMHO, the Frank Alkire story.

Using Garry's site for research is a good idea for anyone serious about the LDM or any other legends concerning the Superstition Mountains. Having said that, I believe we should question every belief we have accepted as "clues/evidence".

That would include everything I have just written.

Take care,

Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

If you read through the Peck Letters, that is the first mention of the manuscript. Peck spent a lot of time and money researching Travis T because he wanted to partner up with Mitchell/MOEL. Only logical that a businessman like himself would investigate the original finder of the stone maps. I believe what is stated in his correspondences about the manuscript. What I don't know is if Janie Tumlinson kept it or possibly sold/gave it to Mitchell.

What do I believe? I believe exactly as I have stated over and over again, that Travis found the stones together just like he told his Uncle Bob. He had been partners with him for many years. Why would he lie to his uncle about where and how he obtained them? He wouldn't have!

Best-Mike
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