The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

anyway, the topic was about a mission bell that all experts seem to believe is really old.
the only question is who brought it to sante fe.
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Bells Are Ringing........

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

To continue the conversation on the Church and bell of San Miguel, I will re-post the information that has been deleted.

Here are the facts:

Much of the information that is on the Internet about the bell is incorrect. It has not been thoroughly researched and has simply been passed on as true. Most of that can be laid at the feet of the early Brothers and clergy as they probably massaged the stories to attract visitors to the Chapel.

The original materials kept by the Brothers in the early days was done in Spanish. Anything prior to 1859 relies on the work done by Dr. Marc Simmons, PhD. and Homer Milford who are credentialed researchers and historians.

It is believed that the information about the bell is probably inaccurate, because it has been kept in-house.
The Brothers did not want to reveal the "real" truth because people would not come to San Miguel, simply to see another old church bell.

My information is from a qualified source. I will not be naming that source, without his permission and I see little value in requesting that for this level of discussion. I do have the documentation to prove what I have just written, but that will not be made available either.

I have more information that is not available on the Internet but believe this will suffice for our discussion.

These comments do not originate with me. They should not be construed as condemnation of the early Brothers of San Miguel. They were men with all the attributes and frailties that we all have. It was a different time.

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More On San Miguel......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

I was hoping someone who has information on this subject would come forward with it, as I have. Going beyond the Internet and into the information that lies hidden in history is the only way to find the truth. Somewhere in the middle fiction and truth will meet. There are sources available who have researched that hidden history, but much of that information has never reached the Internet. Some of it still resides in the Church records and some of it is waiting to be found in Spanish archives.

Brother David was provided his information on San Miguel's bell from Msgr. Dufori. I have been told that Brother David was a well known story teller who may have expanded the story somewhat, and those stories have been challenged for inaccuracies by qualified researchers.

While the story of the bell at San Miguel is interesting, mission bells have no demonstrated connection to the Stone Maps. No one outside the San Miguel Church in New Mexico has been authorized to do any research on the bell. No one inside the Church is doing such research. The reason is simple, the legend of the bell, like many legends, has a life of its own. Should that legend die, no possible good would come of it.

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Sky Harbor Mission.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

A recent article in USA Today by Harriet Baskas, repeats a good deal of the information I had posted earlier on this Forum. Julie Rodriguez, who is the Sky Harbor Public Information Officer, is the person I talked to on the phone and exchanged email's with. She was kind enough to send me the information they had on file concerning the wedding chapel.

This is a list of Arizona Missions:

Nuestra Señora de Los Dolores (1687) · San José de Tumacácori (1691) · Los Santos Ángeles de Guevavi (1691) · San Pedro y San Pablo del Tubutama (1691) · San Xavier del Bac (1699) · San Cayetano de Tumacácori (1751) · San Cayetano de Calabazas (1756) · Puerto de Purísima Concepción (1780) · San Pedro y San Pablo de Bicuñer (1781)

There were no missions in Phoenix, that I could find any record of.

This is a link to Ms. Baskas' article:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/columnis ... skas_x.htm

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1947....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

The following picture was taken in 1947. The building behind the Spanish Mission facade, was the entire Sky Harbor Terminal at the time.

Image

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Sky Harbor 1943....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

The following drawing is from 1943. You can just make out the hanger which is shown to the east of the old terminal in the photograph. The Terminal is barely discernable to the left of the hanger. The hanger is above the two straight lines on the left.

Image

If Waltz walked along Buckeye Road, he did not pass close to the location of the of the Sky Harbor Mission facade, unless he left the road and walked around 2600' to the north. Anyone familiar with this area, as Brad is, can easily spot Budkeye Road, 24th. St. and Air Lane.

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Sky Harbor 1930

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

The following picture was taken from the top of Sky Harbor Terminal in 1930. It was before the fence or facade were built.

Image

The mission facade was built in 1937, as I was told by Julie Rodriguez, who is the Sky Harbor Public Information Officer. The Jr. Chamber Of Commerece paid a young mexican $5.00 to build the facade.

Sky Harbor's field was built in 1928-29. The concrete floor of the hangar was 100' square. There was a concrete taxi and warm up pad that extended to the terminal.

On July 16, 1935, the city of Phoenix became the owner of Sky Harbor Airport, nicknamed “The Farm” because of its isolated, rural location. For $100,000, the city purchased the airport’s 285 acres from the Acme Investment Company.

The unusual shape of the original purchase was because of two farms that were not for sale. One was on the south end of the land and the other was on the north side.

I have another picture of the airfield taken from a plane. The terminal is clearly visible.

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1934

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

This picture of the Sky Harbor and it's terminal, was taken in 1934. Once again, there is nothing between the terminal and the pad.

Image

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More Bells.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Along the lines of Mission Bells relating to the LDM, I have been told that there is some connection between the San Jose Bell at the San Miguel Church in Santa Fe, and the Stone Maps.

Since the bell was cast in 1856, the 1848 date on the Stone maps seems to predate that particular bell. There were many people in Santa Fe who watched the bell being cast by Francisco Lujan and then hung in the bell tower.

Read, Boyd and Homer Milford, three well known historians have all researched those facts and the evidence that supports them...... thoroughly. All have written or published on the subject.

I have been asked where Lujan would have obtained the iron required to make the bell. There are many simple answers to that question. While it's true that iron ore was very scarce in New Mexico, it was imported on a regular basis and was very cheap.

Beyond that, New Mexico started developing iron ore mines when the Santa Fe Trail reopened. Mines were being worked inside of fifty miles from Santa Fe. Simon Delgado belonged to one of the more successful families in New Mexico. The Delgado's owned San Miguel Church during the time the bell was commissioned.

The Delgado's owned gold and silver mines and had an operating smelter at one of their ranches. I don't believe any of the old church bells survived the Pueblo revolt. Many of the bells in New Mexico were of poor quality and could not take the rapid changes in temperature that are common. Being thin to begin with, they would often crack from the extreme conditions.

On the other hand, we have Brother David's pamphlet from 1908 giving his version of when the bell was created. None of the historians who's works I have read, nor those I have talked to, agree with his story. That would include the historians at San Miguel Church.

While San Miguel and the San Jose Bell are dead-ends when trying to tie them to church treasure in the Superstitions, the history is fascinating. According to the Brother I have talked to, there is a great deal of misinformation on the Internet. Much of that was fostered by the prolific and talented story teller, Brother David.

To be honest, most of what I have written is the qualified opinions of well respected historians. My own, unqualified, opinion is based on their work.

My thanks to Bradley Cooper for sending me down this particular historic trail. It was, and continues to be, a wonderful trip for a history buff.

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New Mexico Iron......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Here is a little more on iron in 1842 New Mexico:
_________________________________________

[Purchases of iron and steel in Guaymas and Hermosillo provide a good example of the limited amount of capital required to engage in trade. On 5 November 1842, Antonio Griego left from Guaymas en route to New Mexico carrying seven quintales (910 pounds) of steel valued at seven pesos. A week later (12 November) Rumaldo Baca stopped at Hermosillo to buy eighteen piezas of iron, steel, and domestic merchandise valued at 247 pesos. Antonio Martínez purchased ten piezas of iron, steel, and domestic manufactures assessed at 54 pesos 56 cents, also at Hermosillo. Two days later ( 23 November) Antonio Montafio left Hermosillo having entered with a guía issued in Santa Fe on 14 September. He had acquired ten piezas of steel, iron, and foreign merchandise for sixty-two pesos. Diego Romero probably took a small load of domestic merchandise, possibly to Hermosillo, where on 29 November he received a guía for 15,060 pounds of iron. Two weeks later he arrived at Sonora where he purchased four piezas of iron, steel, and domestic merchandise valued at 108 pesos 6 reales. Even though the value of iron and steel was ridiculously low, apparently it made sense to bring such goods back because they were so scarce that traders are likely to have made enough profit from their sale.

New Mexicans (as opposed to foreigners and other Mexicans) were exempt from paying the alcabala on efectos del país, and this undoubtedly helped them to make these trips more profitable. Although the province had to make a request for this exemption every ten years, trading down the Royal Road was beneficial even for those who took small shipments south.]

Page 37 from: "Los Capitalistas: Hispano Merchants and the Santa Fe Trade", by Susan Calafate Boyle.
_____________________________

It was not long after this, that iron ore was being mined at Cerrillos Hills.
The Delgado's had a gold mine in this area. A good history of Cerrillos Hills can be found on the Internet.

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Iron Bells?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Iron was not really much of an issue with the San Jose Bell. According to the statement that Brother David made in his 1908 pamphlet,
Interesting Guide to see the Oldest Church, Oldest House, Oldest Bell.. "The Bell is made of copper, silver, Iron and a little gold."

[In Pino's account of New Mexico of 1812, under the heading of "Produciones Minerales," he said that some mines had been intentionally abandoned at an unknown time in the past; who discovered or worked them was unknown. Pino said that there were mineral veins in the mountains containing silver, gold, copper, lead and so on, of which assays had been made.] Page 283 of "Popular Arts Of Spanish New Mexico", by E. Boyd.

The bells that were sent to New Mexico in the 17th. century were bronze. I don't believe there is evidence that even one of those bells survived the destruction that took place in 1860. There is some iron in the San Jose Bell, but I would guess.....very little. I could be wrong.
I believe bronze bells were made with 3 to 4 parts copper to 1 part tin. Both could be found in the nearby Cerrillos Hills. Trace amounts of other metals are sometimes added.

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Bronze Bell?????

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Here are some facts about the San Jose Bell:

The bell weight is around 780 pounds.
Around 765 pounds of that is copper.
Approx. 4.7 pounds is lead.
Approx. 4.7 pounds is zinc.
Approx. 3.75 pounds is tin.

The rest of the bell is made up of trace elements of other material, including small amounts of gold and silver.......very small amounts. My thanks to Paul for translating the spread sheet I received.

That means the bell is for all intents and purposes......a copper bell, and not a bronze bell. That also means it is unlikely that the bell was cast in Spain, as they had been casting their church bells in bronze for centuries.

These were the kinds of bells that Francisco Lujan was making in New Mexico in that time period. There are eyewitness accounts of him making the San Jose Bell, and its placement in the San Miguel bell tower.

I have a letter (copy) describing exactly how Lujan made his bells. It is from an eyewitness to his casting a church bell. That bell was also copper. It was during the same time period and in the same area. The letter, which is from Rafael Chacon, can be found on page 139 of Volume 67, August, 1960, No. 4, of "El Palacio". It is the journal of "The museum of New Mexico". The title of the article is, "Bell-Making In New Mexico A Century Ago". The letter was originally in Spanish, and was translated by Benjamin M. Read. I have that particular issue.

All of the above is factual evidence. It is not story or conjecture. The bell and San Miguel Chapel have nothing to do with the Stone Maps. It has been a lot of fun tracing down this evidence and making the contacts who are reliable sources. In the process, I have stepped into another, historical, world.

I have only made two (2) personal contacts in this search. Neither of them were upset by my contacting them, and I have an ongoing exchange of email's with both men. In fact almost daily, of late. Both men were extremely friendly and helpful from the first moment of contact. Our personal information was exchanged without reservation.

Some of the evidence that I have is practically unknown, and unpublished.....anywhere. One such artifact is the William P. Blake journal entries for August 30, 1857, which have only been seen by (maybe) a half dozen people. Mr. Blake gave the following description of San Miguel:
_________________

[San Miquel

Destroyed with the others in 1680 and since rebuilt. It is small and plain. Has a floor. Rectangular, 18 paces to altar 7 ½ wide. On the principal cross beams supporting the choir is found the following inscriptions Pour mandado del marguls de la Penuela se hizo esta fabrioa el Alferes real don Antonio Flores Vergara su servidor en el ano 1677.

A new roof has just been put on this church, under the direction of Mrs. Delgado. It has a sideroom which is now out of repair but in which there is a table or side altar with pictures, looking glasses candles and crucifixes of small size. This is a small church and not well supplied with pictures.

Mr Tolhurst tells me that this image which is of the size of life is occasionally sprinkled with fresh sheep’s blood. It is distressing to behold it is ghastly figure with a crown of thorns around the brow. These images are placed against the wall at the [] behind the altar and are covered to hid from sight by long red curtains reaching from the ceiling to the floor. The walls of this part of the church are very thick. The ceiling is formed in the usual manner and is very neat the timbers being laid [] together and very regularly. A carved [] supports each end.

There are two very good oil paintings or copies in the church of her Lady of light and they are well preserved. Along the [] [] we find colored lithographs of our Savior and the Saints.]
___________________________________________________

Interesting insight into the San Miguel Church of 1857.

I was not asked by anyone from San Miguel to research the history of the Church or bell, but we have been in constant, unofficial, contact. They have not asked or authorized anyone, outside the Church, to research their own history or the history of the bell. That does not mean that no one is interested in the factual truth, but they have not actively sought outside help.

I have purposely left out personal source names, as I have not asked their permission to use them. I do have the evidence to back up every statement I have made. When I make a statement like that, you can take it to the bank.

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Letter From "El Palacio".......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

This is the letter I mentioned above:

[In answer to your favor of recent date, "Just another word and pardon me," I forgive you and will give you what information lies within my recollection regarding the bell-maker Francisco Lujan, who was familiarly known as "El Quito Lujan."
In the autumn of the year 1855 or'56 the bell-maker went to Chamisal, a place four miles South of the Indian Pueblo of Picuris, in the county of Taos, N. Mex., for the purpose of making a bell for the Chapel of the Holy Cross (Capilla de la Santa Cruz) of that place. He called a meeting of the people in order to secure the material necessary for the purpose; some offered to make and furnish the adobes (sun-baked brick) for the oven, which was finally made similar to those used in making native molasses in New Mexico in the early days; others agreed to furnish the necessary ashes which were to be from pine and cedar wood; some offered to furnish the sand that was to be used, while the women volunteered to contribute all their old discarded copper pots which were to be melted for the purpose.Everything being ready, the bell-maker had the sand finely ground. This was done on metates and sifted through sieves made out of horse hair that the Indians used to make in those days, and used them for sifting flour. The ashes were also sifted to make them clean. When all was ready he kneaded the mixture and from it made the form of the bell similar to a cone. He then covered this with the ashes and over these he place a coating so as to leave a hollow space between which the molten copper was to fill. Between these moulds he inscribed the characters representing the month and year. On the top of the oven he used the same mixture where the copper was melted, whence he caused the molten copper to flow into the mould of the bell through a tube properly made for the purpose. When the copper was melted he cleaned it by removing the slag skimming it with a large spoon. He then had them put pieces of gold and silver into the copper: valuable rings and other jewels were used, according to his instructions, to give the bell a loud, clear ring. In my judgement they must have used about $200 in gold and silver in this way. The bell must have weighed over 100 pounds. The bell turned out of excellent quality and is still in use. He made other bells but I have no idea of their whereabouts.
Hoping this data will satisfy your wishes, I am as ever
Your friend,
(signed) Rafael Chacon]
__________________________________

I added the emphasis in bold.

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Grijalba Stone......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

To get back to the Stone Maps, here's something that might be connected:

Image
(Courtesy of Tom Kollenborn)

This is a copy of the article we were talking about in some earlier posts. While there is no proof these were the Stone Maps, as we know them today, it seems like one hell of a coincidence. If they're not, what happened to Grijalba's Stone Maps?????

Oops!! Looks like he only had one stone map.

Pay no attention to "finest buggy team".

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Mission bell

Post by CLD »

Is there a bell in the chapel next to the LDM museum?
Shhh...........Ok now bite me!
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Bells Are Ringing........???

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

CLD,

Can we assume your question has something to do with the Stone Maps?

I don't recall there being a bell on the maps, mission or otherwise. Want to clue us in?

Thanks,

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The bell

Post by CLD »

OOps my mistake Joe...I was reading the previous page and "forgot" that the topic was the maps. A rookie mistake. :oops:
Shhh...........Ok now bite me!
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Ruth And The Stone Map Trail.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Before Tex's death, Tom K. Specifically asked Tex about Ruth's route into Willow Spring. Tex swore they came in from First Water Ranch. This is something Tom and I disagree about, but I completely understand his belief in what Tex told him. It's interesting that Tom felt it was an important question to ask.

It is understandable why they would change the trail that Ruth took to Willow Spring if the key to the mystery is on that ridge and I believe it is. The "guides" had to back up whatever story Tex or Cal told them, because they were up to their necks as prime suspects in a possible murder.

I believe Tex knew where the body was......all along. They took it to Black Top Mesa to move the search away from Willow Spring. That area was a hotbed of Dutch hunting activity for many years. Of course that's where Ruth would end up. Who would even question it?

The end of the trail on the Stone Maps is in Little Boulder Canyon. It is in the center of the heart and is depicted as a triangle. Just south of the triangle is a hat shaped mark. That hat shape is on the ridge, and in the correct location. South of that are the two monuments, both marked on the ridge. The trail comes out of West Boulder up and over the ridge, down along the east side and curves into Little Boulder. It ends at the circle in a circle, which is between the triangle and the hat shape. The circle in a circle is very close to where the heart is.

Is this the "secret" information that Adolph Ruth carried in his head? Could he have been looking for the heart, or did he climb straight up the ridge to the mine or the monuments?

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The Saddle......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

For anyone interested, here is another view......closer, of the saddle above
Willow Spring:

Image

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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

I just received a call from Phil Reinhardt asking me to make the following announcement for the museum:

The Superstition Mountain Museum will have the Peralta Stone Maps on display, outside the building and out of the cases, on June 27th. 8 AM to 10 AM. They will be available to be photographed for those
2-Hours.

There is a $20 fee, and the number of photographers will be restricted to 20 people. It's requested that you RSVP. In the event that they don't get 20 RSVP's, the balance of the 20 will be made up of first come first serve.

4087 N. Apache Trail
Apache Junction, AZ 85119
(480) 983-4888

I would suggest that everyone interested call the museum and confirm the information I have posted.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Gregory E. Davis »

Hello Joe: I have a correction to make to Phil's statement to you regarding the Stone Map Photo Section at the Superstition Mountain Museum. There is no fee for $20.00. It's a donation and it's for $40.00 per person. We will extend the time after the 10A.M. cut off if there are still photographers there that need to finish their pictures, but no later than 11A.M.. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Greg,

Many thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid it might end up being wrong, which is why I suggested that folks confirm it.

Hope all is well with you.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by zentull »

Okay guys, I now have my 300 or so up close and personal pics of the stone maps and while I had a great time around everyone who showed up, I still don't get it. But I do have questions and couldn't really find the answers elsewhere so hopefully all of you will wake up for a bit to clear up a few things for me.

First up: if the caption to the photo in Glovers book is correct the heart was broken either prior to after it's discovery. How many times has it been fixed? Or was it pasted together when Marlow found it?

It is obvious that everything on earth has been pumped into that crack including cement or concrete. Pretty bad and sad bonding job. The other thing is it has a glaze as if someone tried to cover or stain over the repairs which usually enhances that sort of thing instead. That staining is pretty obvious in the Glover pic as well.
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by zentull »

Another sad note is the "DON" inscription is pretty much gone. Of the pictures I have from every angle and lighting I used it is unreadable. I figure it was stored or displayed always with the inscription rubbing against something and has worn to nothing but a mere shading in spots. At one point Phil held it up and thought he had it right and in my picture you can discern he is holding it upside down. That should tell you how bad it is.

The rest of the stones look like my kids were handling them with dings and scratches everywhere.

One thing I wanted to ask and felt it would be frowned upon, was to scratch out some of the residue in a few of the cracks to see if it was mud or from Robinsons castings. I got some good pics of those areas but figure a sample would clarify this.
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Re: The Stone Maps

Post by zentull »

One other thing I thought was a bit odd and funny was the arrow through the faintly scratched heart to the word "COAZON". Don't remember anyone mentioning it before.
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