The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Joe Ribaudo
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Guests

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ronn,

At this moment there are three guests on the Forum......and me. :lol:

Joe Ribaudo
RONN
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Guests or whatever

Post by RONN »

Joe – My good friend –
When I joined this fine group I did not know that it would end up in a ‘splitting of hairs’ type forum. My comment of ‘thousands’ was just a figure of speech, as I am not keeping track of who is on this forum and who is not. This is typical of someone who does not particularly care as to how many are where etc, namely me. I have also noticed in this forum a lot of what I call ‘in-fighting’. I joined up hoping to learn something. And as I said earlier, it is my opinion, that the excitement in all of this is the ‘search’ and not necessarily the actual finding of the LDM. I look at this forum as a pleasurable experience, a learning experience. I am not in it to keep track of who does what, nor the number of guests/members etc. That does not help me learn more about the LDM and its history.
Thank you, but I have to think about this for awhile
Respectfully,
Ron Nickel
(RONN)
Joe Ribaudo
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Observations

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ronn,

Sorry if my post confused you. It was a simple observation that while few people were posting, a good many were paying attention to what was being posted.

The webmaster (Another Joe) has a pretty good handle on keeping these topic on course. There is no need for you to keep track of anything here....that's my job. :lol: (Joke) :lol:

In the past others have taken note of the large number of guests, as opposed to members, who are on the site at any given time. It seems pertinent to be aware of which topics are drawing the most interest.

The Stone Maps topic does not seem to fade in popularity. If you are looking to learn somethng about the LDM and Stone Map legends, there is enough good information here to keep you up for one or two nights. :)

You asked:

"is finding the LDM really a good thing for mankind at this point in time."

Finding any treasure or lost mine gives hope to the many treasure hunters who have labored all their adult lives searching for elusive dreams. From time to time, someone needs to stoke that fire with success.

Does that help "mankind" in any meaningful way? Each of us will have to answer that for ourselves. Probably depends on who is the finder and who is the seeker. :wink:

I said nothing that would need more (thinking) time than what is required to read it. Nothing profound......just a simple observation.

Hope I have not rubbed you the wrong way. If you have some serious questions, I believe you need only ask them.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by RONN »

JOE;
Thank you so very much for your well thought out answer to my questionable post. It really saved the day for me and I highly compliment you on your knowledge of the LDM, and I must say people in general.
I knew you were good people, and that’s the way it will remain. I guess to be honest I’m like a ‘dummy’ venturing into the dark about a hidden world famous event, a world famous site, put together no less, by world ramous people. The LDM is out there, and I feel that no Forest Ranger or the like will ever find it themselves. If they catch someone who really and truly does find it, then I would take that as another story. But I do feel that the discoverer will be someone like you, Joe, or another with the same qualified intelligence to know what to do and when to do it. I compliment you on your high regard to do the right thing at the right time.
Respectfully,
RONN
Questionable Note: I wonder how much gold the Forest Rangers have taken out of the Superstitions for themselves?
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Kind Words

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ronn,

I appreciate the kind words, but you don't know me yet. :) I know I am "good people", and those who actually know me personally, are the ones who's opinions matter the most.

If you have looked back over past topics and posts, you can't help but realize that I am highly opinionated. That does not mean I am right, only that I believe strongly in my own instincts and abilities.

There have been a few times here when I was on the right side of a debate, that being the provably factual side, and I continued to provide additional facts to back up my position. In retrospect, I should have walked away from the conversation. I suppose that's a character flaw I will just have to live with.

If you go back through past topics, I look pretty bad. Part of that is due to the fact that those who were accusing me of everything imaginable have deleated their posts. For the most part, I have too much pride to do that.

Those wholesale deletions are the reason we can no longer edit our posts.

While I have been a student of the history of the LDM, I have never walked one foot, for myself, in searching for it. Those who talk about me in connection with Jacob's mine, just don't pay attention.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
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Memories

Post by RONN »

Lazarus::: In reading over some of the posts my eye caught something you said in one of your postings. Namely - “The Mountain has brought me great wealth … in memories”. Lazarus you are indeed the richest man in the world. At my age of 74 I have a ton of memories of my military service, my work in the import/export field. But now as I relax in retirement I reflect on those memories, and sometimes it becomes a bit emotional. If the Mountain has brought you great wealth in memories then your search was more than very worthwhile. I commend you on your philosophical outlook.
Ronn
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RONN

Post by lazarus »

RONN,

thank you.

Laz,

Brad
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The LDM

Post by RONN »

Joe
Your recent post in which you state that you have not put one step out there in search of the LDM. It is true that one may learn a tremendous amount of valuable information from books etc etc etc. However, considering the position that you entertain it hardly seems right that people go to you looking for information on the LDM. Allow me to give you an example. In the middle 80’s I took it upon myself to learn to fly, obtaining only a Private Pilots License. In later years I was interested in becoming a Ground School Instructor, but by popular opinion I was knocked down. Knocked down by people saying well Ron, you don’t have that many hours in the air. How can you teach something that you really have not had hard and fast experience in?”
Just my 2 cents worth.
Ronn
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Close Quote....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ron,

I should think that teaching someone how to fly a plane, would include prepairing them for the unexpected problems. Years of flying, and surviving, is really the only way to gain that kind of knowledge and experience.

Here is what I actually said:

"While I have been a student of the history of the LDM, I have never walked one foot, for myself, in searching for it."

I believe I have been pretty open about my experiences in anything connected to the LDM. For someone new to the game, I can provide a wealth of information about the history, written and unwritten, of those who have searched for Jacob's mine. Others can give even more important information and hard won facts. On the other hand, I have spent some time with family and friends who were looking for the LDM.

I don't have a "position", just a place to voice my thoughts on a long time hobby, exactly like you and every other member of this Forum. If someone comes to me with a question, I try to answer to the best of my ability... and honestly. Many times I know where to find the answer, otherwise I just say I don't know.

"However, considering the position that you entertain it hardly seems right that people go to you looking for information on the LDM."

Over the years I have been helped by a lot of people who are head and shoulders above anything I might have to offer anyone. Many of them are dead now. I will continue to pass on what I have learned from those giants, and the little knowledge I have gained from my own time in the mountains and 48 years of (very) part time research.

As I have always said, I expect every thing I post on this Forum, or any other, to be questioned seven ways from Sunday. When that happens, I don't get angry but I do provide whatever sources are availabe for my statements.

I will leave it to others to decide if I am taking advantage of my "position", whatever that is. :)

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
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Rewards?

Post by critter »

There are a lot of assumptions about what the reality of finding the LDM would be. Of course, most presume that those who find it will be awash with valuable mineral ores, which would leave them in unimaginable wealth.

But lets just for a moment presume that the legends are true. In that case, then the mine itself would be full of dirt, which over the course of the past century and a quarter, may very well have turned to caliche, as dirt tends to do in the Sonoran desert. Now, whoever finds this elusive treasure has a lot of very laborious and quite dangerous work to do before even laying eyes upon any kind of valuable mineral. And since "no miner" will inevitably find it, they will undoubtedly be unprepared to undertake the required work.

Furthermore, let us presume that somehow someone was able to remove all of the dirt and rocks in the entrance to this mine without incident and happened to locate the valuable minerals within. Well, that presents another problem unto itself because Dutchman ore is a rare breed, indeed the rarest of them all - pure gold interwoven into a rose quartz gangue. While it may be possible to dump this ore clandestinely on the open market to evade detection, eventually the inevitable question would come up as to it's provenance and that is a sticky wicket in and of itself given the circumstances.

In addition, the true value of the mineral rests in the fact that it is from the LDM and any attempt to dump it without recognition of it's provenance would have to be done at a rate significantly less than it's true value making the risk involved that much greater. No, any reasonable person not struck by the gold fever bug and with an ounce of common sense would know that it is better left untouched. After all, as Laz has pointed out, it's not going anywhere.

As for the possibilities for book publications or the like, well, these would and should really only be undertaken upon a qualified verification of the find if one truly wants to put the story to rest. This, of course, has it's own problems. There really is not an easy solution to the problem. It certainly isn't as cut and dry as dig or don't dig, write or don't write, black or white, like many seem to think.

Regards,

Critter
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Amen

Post by lazarus »

Critter,

those are pearls of wisdom, you speak.

Laz
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Pearls.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Critter,

At any given time an existing "worked out" gold mine could become a producer. Assuming the ore from the Dutchman was any of the types that have been described by various people, something close to those descriptions could be part of that "new" vein.

Assume that a "worked out" mine, outside the Wilderness Area, was used as a "source" for Dutchman ore, or any any other valuable mineral, from inside the Superstitions. What government agency would step in and require testing to determine that the ore, or in this case practically pure gold, came from that mine?

Two things required for an effective caliche barrier to opening the LDM, would be calcium carbonate (lime) and water. While anything is possible, that seems unlikely in this case.

"In that case, then the mine itself would be full of dirt....".

I have not read any account where the mine would be "full of dirt".

"And since "no miner" will inevitably find it, they will undoubtedly be unprepared to undertake the required work."

I believe that, assuming Waltz made that statement, he meant that his mine did not have any of the "signs" that a miner would look for. A miner would have just as good a chance (or better) of finding the mine by accident as anyone.

Many people believe they have all the answers when it comes to what would happen if someone should find the LDM. For those who know the right people, it's a well known fact/secret that such a mine was found in the Superstitions and worked out in the 1990s.

"There really is not an easy solution to the problem. It certainly isn't as cut and dry as dig or don't dig, write or don't write, black or white, like many seem to think."

It seems to me, that the above statement should be written as an opinion and not presented as a statement of "fact". Replacing "certainly isn't" with may not be would have left you with some wriggle room. Any "scientist" worth his salt would have worded it to allow wriggle room. :)

Much of my post is personal opinion. Some is fact. Please do not consider this a personal attack on you. It is simply opposing opinions (for the most part) to the conclusions you have presented.

Joe Ribaudo
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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe wrote:

"Two things required for an effective caliche barrier to opening the LDM, would be calcium carbonate (lime) and water. While anything is possible, that seems unlikely in this case".


Joe,
how do you know both are not present? Are you familiar with the mine?

Laz
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Elementary.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Had those two elements been present, Waltz would have been digging through caliche in his efforts to seal the mine. If he sealed it in the manner described in legend, there is little chance that a meaningful caliche barrier could be formed.

Beyond that, I believe I am "familiar with the mine". You will notice that I said "I believe". That is called leaving some wriggle room. :lol:

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to (minimally) qualify my opinions.

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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

as I recall, the mine was supposed to have leaked rather badly during rain.

Laz
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Leaked?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Any source for that memory?

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Joe

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

not a clue.
I've done a great deal of digging over the years. I can't recall the source.

Laz
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Memory.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

Not for the first time, I admit I have not read every thing that has been written about the LDM. However, I have read all of the major and many of the minor books. Beyond that, I have heard more than a few old timers discuss the clues that surround the mine.

In 48 years, this is the first time I have heard that the mine leaked when it rained. It goes without saying that a pit mine will get water in it when it rains. Considering the legend that the mine is high up, and close to the ridge line, it seems unlikely it would receive a great deal of runoff.

Having said that, I believe there is water in the mine today. If so, the interior and distance of that mine is much different than the one Waltz last visited. From what you have said here in the past, you would know that much better than I.

I "don't recall" many of the sources for my statements, :? but usually know where to find them.

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Joe,

Post by lazarus »

Joe,

I remember it stating that Jake would have to stop working because the water poured through so quickly, but seldom lasted more than a few minutes.

Jake would go downstairs to the 'cave of the ancients' and smoke his pipe while he waited for the rain to pass. The 'cross cut tunnel' was unpleasant, so he usually stayed away from it.

Odd...
it's a great deal to recall without recalling the source. If I can pin it down, I'll let you know.

Laz
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Water Issues in Waltz's Mine

Post by Roger »

I might offer another explaination of Waltz having water runoff problems. If there was a "Cave" between the peaks that one had to go down to and then through to get to a lower ledge where the pit mine(s) were located, then Waltz might have been referring to him being in this cave when it rained and not at the pit mine. He would of course have gotten wet at the pit mine when it rained, but if he sought shelter in the cave above the mine, there could have been considerable runoff coming down from the ravine/canyon above that cave and the water coursing through the cave - making it a very wet place to be in. In those times, Waltz simply moved to a lower more classical cave where he could stay dry and still watch the canyon below him until the rain stopped. The flow through the upper cave would have stopped quickly after the rain stopped if there wasn't too much of a canyon above it.

Food for thought.

Roger
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Post by TC ASKEY »

'cave of the ancients'.... sounds alot like the valley of the souls.
Now where have we heard that before?
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Odd?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Brad,

"Odd...
it's a great deal to recall without recalling the source."

In my case, it's not hard to understand. From the first grade I have been a prolific reader. A good deal of my reading was historical novels and history.

That habit has created a great deal of information in a mind that can no longer keep it in good order. I try to keep a pretty good library on hand to help me relocate those memories that are pertinent to my present interests.

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No miners

Post by critter »

"I believe that, assuming Waltz made that statement, he meant that his mine did not have any of the "signs" that a miner would look for. A miner would have just as good a chance (or better) of finding the mine by accident as anyone."

I would like to offer a contrary opinion as to the reason that no miner would find this mine. I believe that no miner would find the mine because miners weren't alloed to operate in the area. In other words, the area in which the mine is found was withdrawn from eligibility for staking a claim under the Mining Law of 1872 and was therefore off limits to both mining and miners in Waltz's day. Jacob Waltz was a miner who staked a few claims in his day, yet he never did stake one East of Phoenix. Why not? Well, he couldn't. Nope, no miners allowed!

As for the existence of either dirt, caliche, or water. Well, Joe, as Laz always tells you...the truth will be your longest shadow. And indeed it will be.
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Critter's ad hominem attack post deleted

Post by critter »

Critter - last warning. Post ad hominem attacks in the Boxing forum.

- Admin
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Post by zentull »

Every source states that the mine was not visible from below. You could see the area where the dump was from above as you approached. The dump worked out into a ravine where most of the signs were washed out and looked natural. The approach to the mine area speaks volumes to me.

The cave would be close by and not as prominent I would think. It was just a place to rest and get out of the rain nearby.


the Peralta report of the mines condition years later implies to me that the area was washed out and would take a lot of effort to clear. So I would think a ravine would be likely above the mine.
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