The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Post Reply
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

>>Most of the "overwhelming" evidence is popular "stories". While I don't disagree with the Spanish/Mexicans in the Superstitions, the evidence of native gold in the mountains seems slim, at best. A good many modern-day ore samples were found right where the finder dropped it<<


HAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAAH
JIM HAMRICK
Part Timer
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:46 am
Location: phoenix
Contact:

stone maps

Post by JIM HAMRICK »

In 4-28-06 Bill711 posted a note about treasure hunters finding gold bars. He thought this was in Texas but the articles that I read were about a group of older men who had found gold bars near Tucson. They found a number of bars and same empty holes were you could guess that bars had been removed. A search of the area found sighting holes and following these they found what they called a "coyote hole" where a horizontal tunnel once had been dug and at the end there was a larger cavity where many gold bars were found. I think that this was an old timers checking account (the individual bars) and his saving account (the coyote hole).

I am recounting this because I have not been convinced that the dutchman had a mine but I would not discount the idea of a central depository where a year or several years worth of lode and placer gold mining could be stored. This should be an accesible, easily guarded spot with food and water for man and beast. Do any of the stone maps show such a place; I pasture north of the river? I am not asking for information just trying to jog minds. Maybe there are no mines to find just a stash of gold left behind because there were not enough burros to carry it all, so it was hidden. This might be why no fabulously rich mine has ever been found.

A number of years ago I worked with a man whoes brother-in-law had a placer claim near Payson where Mexican coins were found in the sluice. I do not doubt that Mexican prospecting expiditions have been coming to Arizona for at least two hundred years.

Jim Hamrick
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Informed Sources

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Thank you for providing your informed opinion.

Nzhogo nandago,

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

I was just chuckling at your little joke.


That was you just being humorous............wasnt it?
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

He ge adnii?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Could be. Which part?

Nzhogo nandago,

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

The part about you claiming the evidence for native gold in the mountains is slim at best is pretty funny.

I like that part.

When you tell folks these silly stories because they dont fit in with your silly theories do they laugh like I do, or do they actually BELEIVE you?
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Evidence

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

You have changed what I said.

You said: "is slim at best".

I said: "seems slim at best".

There is a subtle difference in the two statements, which you may have overlooked in you haste.

"When you tell folks these silly stories because they dont fit in with your silly theories do they laugh like I do, or do they actually BELEIVE you?"

Only the well informed ones. :lol: Which of my theories do you think folks, not you, are laughing at? I know when you laugh. When you don't have an answer......You do tend to laugh a lot.

A good deal of what I post, is meant to stir the mental soup, not just re-hash tired old stories. Those stories have not led a Dutch Hunter anywhere of importance in the LDM legend. A fresh look can't hurt. No one needs to take it serious.

Speaking of native gold....which piece of evidence is not just another story? Until someone finds some serious sign of gold in the Superstitions, it's just another story.

Nzhogo nandago,

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

>>When you don't have an answer......You do tend to laugh a lot.<<

You mistake NOT having an answer for not willing to GIVE an answer.
There is a not-so subtle difference there.

Folks that know and have an answer...... keep their mouths shut.

Folks that wish they knew, write books and go into long innane diatribes attempting to explain themselves to the masses.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

The Final Location

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

A few things have happened concerning my conclusions concerning the Stone Maps.

The first thing, is that I trusted the wrong person with my information. Kevin took my map and all other materials to Peter. Peter, not being a person of any moral character, will make them public. It is just a matter of when, not if.

The final location, or circle in a circle, is in Little Boulder Canyon. The Heart and triangle are also in that location. I will be happy to answer any questions concerning the other markings on the trail maps.

Other (circumstantial) evidence points to the maps being modern-day creations. That does not mean they are not accurate, and old mines and landmarks were used in their making.

Only someone who has spent years in those mountains and is very familiar with the area of the maps could make them. They could not be made by a casual visitor or by only using a topographic map. The author had to cover every part of the maps on foot, or horseback.

There are only a few markings on the trail maps that are not topographical. The dots, other than the dots on the trail, are locator dots.
They are various high points in the mountains.

Anyone who asks, will receive answers.

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Joe

Heres the deal. Like I said, after seeing you in person, I really do feel sorry for you. Neither you nor anyone else will EVER be badmouthed on the new site. Nor will I be coming on this site to disparage you or anyone else. I'll leave that up to you.

However, EVERY time you mention my name or a friends in a demeaning manner I will simply use that occasion to post about the new site. Folks can already see the difference between the sites I think. Want to discuss the LDM in a serious, adult manner? Come to the new site. Want a laugh? Come here.

This place is what YOU have made it.

Enjoy, you have done a great job.

Hello Folks,

Theres a new Lost Dutchman website. Complete with monthly articles, maps, pictures, history, folklore and other information pertaining to the Lost Dutchman Mine and the Superstition mountains.
There are also friendly moderated Forums.

You can take a look at www.thelostdutchman.net

While we doubt we have as much information as this site or that the forums will be run as well as they are here you might want to take a look anyway.

Enjoy

Peter
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Deals

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

The last time I made a deal with someone like you.....it was Kevin. If the truth is demeaning to you, and I'm sure it is, then you will just have to deal with it the best you can.

As for feeling sorry for me, after you saw me, that's a real laugh. As I told you when you bragged about who would be "popular" at the Rendezvous, you will just end up with me making a fool of you... again. That's just what happened.

If not for the people in my camp, you would have taken home all but about six of your flyers, and those would have gone to people who already knew about your site.

The "Giants" you said you would bring to the party consisted of....... Matthew.

You are a nobody trying to puff yourself up to real Dutch Hunters. The fact that some of your posters are posting under two identities makes your whole site as puffed up as you are.

Since the only time you actually saw me, I was surrounded by friends, some of them real "Giants", I must assume that you "feel sorry" for me because of the way I look. :lol: :lol: :lol: You are no one to be calling me "fat", which you have done. That's why I posted that great shot of you in "Member Archive".

You will never see the day when "Your" site is as respected as Ron's. That has nothing to do with how well it has been planned or put together.
It has to do with "Respect" for the man behind the plan.

Just as I predicted that you would be a fool at the Rendezvous, I can now make the easy prediction that you will betray everyone who gets close to you........Just like you did with Greg and Kevin. "Friends who would Bleed for you." :roll: They will both need transfusions to run with you.

A "moderated" site. How......"Un-American" of you. :lol: You have left a few of your post here. None are of any importance, so perhaps you will take the time to place them where they belong.

Thanks again for your concern. This will be my last post to you, so you will need to think up another excuse for advertising your trash here.

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Hello Folks,

Theres a new Lost Dutchman website. Complete with monthly articles, maps, pictures, history, folklore and other information pertaining to the Lost Dutchman Mine and the Superstition mountains.
There are also friendly moderated Forums.

You can take a look at www.thelostdutchman.net

While we doubt we have as much information as this site or that the forums will be run as well as they are here you might want to take a look anyway.

Enjoy

Peter
rvreclus
Greenhorn
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Daly City, CA
Contact:

the stone maps

Post by rvreclus »

Joe and all,
I am not sure if this type of question can be askedI don't have the experience or depth of knowledge that most of the posters appeare to have on this subject. I want to increase both, none the less I do have a question. Without arguing the authenticty of which maps are the real deal(how many copies are out there), in general can the 3 maps be characterized as 1) the priest/horse map, 2) The heart/don map, 3)trail/cross map. If my characterization of the physical maps is wrong what is on the back side of the Heart and Trail maps. Secondly in my trips to the supes " the mountain" at the beginning of the trail map looks to me like Superstition Mt when coming north from the direction of Florence and I can find a likeness from the west but not nearly as good as from Florence. The last time I was in the mountains coming from the south around Miners Needle and going NE and eventually westerly I found the view of a mountain in the interior to be even closer in outline. This then begs me to ask, where or how would you place the beginning of the trail. I have two starting points, now maybe three. Any response would be welcome, R Reclus
rvreclus
Greenhorn
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Daly City, CA
Contact:

The stone maps

Post by rvreclus »

Joe and all,
I want to clarify my previous post with this statement. I want to build my own skills, my powers of observation, and see if anybody sees what I see. I can read all there is out there, but what I see is more confusing than what I read. R Reclus
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Answers

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

RV,

In my opinion, the first trail map's outline can be found in a number of places in the Superstitions.....and perhaps the rest of the world as well.

The question should be: Does the rest of the map match up/connect to the start of the trail.

If you start your Stone Map Trail at the bottom of Hieroglyphic Canyon, with the top of the ridge beginning the marked trail, you will find yourself in West Boulder Canyon.

The rest of the map, including the Heart Map, will become obvious as you study the topography. If you follow the trail that starts at the top of the one (1), you be lead directly to the heart, the triangle and the circle in a circle. The last will be almost impossible to find. The heart will not be visible from the trail, but must be viewed from the north looking southward.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
rvreclus
Greenhorn
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Daly City, CA
Contact:

The stone maps

Post by rvreclus »

Joe,
Thanks, I agree with your thought that you can find almosty any thing anywhere(paraphrased). Do you think that this avenue into the Supe's was a major route? As referenced in the " the first large draw on the south side of the west end...." I always thought that this might refer to Barks draw and the valley with the Quater circle U ranch. My thinking is that this trail over Superstition Mt, because of it's location was a special purpose trail only, it is much easier to access the interior from other places. It's almost as if this trail was used as a secret "safe" route for going and coming. This also makes me wonder about the "Peralta Massacer" and whether they weren't trying to access this way out of the mountains through this canyon. The Apache probably would have made hay because of the terrain. Any other thoughts on the access routes into the interior of the mountains. Later R Reclus
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Dangerous

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

RV,

I believe the "safe" portion of your post relates directly to the danger of the trail itself. It also took them to a great view-point. The maps were partially drawn from Superstition Peak.

If you just use a Topographic Map, you will be able to see what they saw from the peak. Better yet, take a helicopter ride up there. I have done that twice. Wonderful view that way.

The maps end in Little Boulder Canyon.

Trying to figure out why they went the way they did, has never been a priority for me. Follow the P.C. Bicknell directions. They will be a precise description of the beginning of the Stone Map Trail. Bicknell's camp was at Willow Spring......Same as Ruth's.

Actually it's "the first gorge on the south side, from the west end of the range.....". A "draw" and a "gorge" are two entirely different things.

Joe Ribaudo
late49er
Part Timer
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:40 pm
Location: Reno, Nevada

The Stone Maps

Post by late49er »

1847
Last edited by late49er on Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rvreclus
Greenhorn
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Daly City, CA
Contact:

The Stone Maps

Post by rvreclus »

Joe,
Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry for the misquote but your answers are thought provoking to say the least. I'm in the process of dragging out all my topos and photos. To say the least , I'm very surprised, at the amount of specific detail the creator of the maps has included. I did not see how really detailed they are in specific topography. Your work and effort in dechiphering the maps is amazing. As Later49er stated due to the circumstances, you have decided to share your work before you could finish it, I want to thank you. Good hunting and good health R Reclus.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Too Trusting

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

RV,

Considering how well I know myself, parnoia and all, I have been a trusting soul when it comes to people I have met face to face. I just assume if you are man enough to look me in the eyes, shake my hand and give me your word, that you are being truthful.

You will notice that no one has had the balls to come on here and deny what I have said. There are a number of well know and respected Dutch Hunters that know the truth of the matter.

Around thirty years ago, my brother and I made the climb to the top of the ridge looking for monuments that were shown on the Stone Maps. I had placed the entire Stone Map Trail on a topographic map and was hoping they would be where I had place them.

Once on top, we walked.....maybe 1/4 mile northward and ran right into the first one. The second was right where I knew it would be. They were very large and I have never seen anything that was close to their size or quality of construction.

Joe Ribaudo
User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Post by djui5 »

That's quite a map you made too Joe. Really nice work. Thanks for sharing it with all of us. Seemed to fit a lot of things on the map for sure. All that hard work paid off.

It's the Degrazia connection I'm struggling with :)
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

DELETED
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Holmes

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

As it turns out, it would appear that Holmes had some pretty good information. The question is: If that's true.......Why didn't he find the LDM?

All of the information I have tying Ted DeGrazia, Chuck Aylor, Harry LaFrance, Tom Kollenborn and Bob Ward to the Stone Maps, is purely circumstantial. However, there are quite a number of those connections.

Joe Ribaudo
Knun
Part Timer
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:57 pm

Enough of this poor poor pitiful Joe blather

Post by Knun »

At this point this is getting a little to far off the bullshit meter for even myself to disregard. For those of you that actually listen to the poor me whining from Joe you may want to read on.

Joe says the following:
“For those of you who are trusting Kevin, you may want to consider the kind of snake he is.
Kevin asked to go on the pre-run for last years Rendezvous. After that, I asked the men who were there if they would be interested in joining a team to pursue my Stone Map conclusions. They all said yes, including Kevin.
I only asked that they keep my information confidential. They all agreed to do that.
Kevin has never continued contact with the other team members once he received my information. Shortly after that, Peter started saying that my team members were deserting me. Kevin took everything to Peter. “


Joe,
I realize you’re a legend in your own mind but a little truth is appropriate. As you say I agreed to keep your information confidential and I agreed to join your “Team.” But that is a far as the truth goes. We spent a total of an hour looking over your map. I took no photos or copies. I never asked for nor received a copy of your map. Of that hour I spent a total of maybe ten minutes actually looking at your map and the rest of the time was spent talking. After that meeting I continued to converse with your “Team” for a few weeks.

During that time I was trying to reconcile my ideas with your ideas. Something I was not able to do.

For example, your idea of a pack trail over Hieroglyphic Canyon did not, and still doesn’t, sit well with me. That is not the only reason I had misgivings but my reasons matter little.

I elected to withdraw from the team at that point. There was no underhanded bullshit going on. I didn’t divulge any “secrets” to anyone. I just decided not to be a part of your team. It was that simple. We had met one time and discussed the details of your information for an hour or less. I did not believe for a minute that you had divulged your entire library of ideas in one hour. I did not believe that you had shown all of “your” secrets. In fact, I doubted that you displayed hardly any of your secrets in the short first meeting. I now realise that is all you've got.

Yet you state: The first thing, is that I trusted the wrong person with my information. Kevin took my map and all other materials to Peter. Peter, not being a person of any moral character, will make them public. It is just a matter of when, not if.

As you know that’s a croc. I don’t have your map nor any other materials to even give anyone.

I met Peter for the first time months later with Larry, another member of your team. We were on a hike. At some point at or after that meeting I did discuss with Peter your idea about a trail starting in the canyon. If that is divulging some deep secret I’m guilty as charged.

As you know Peter is not interested in the stone maps. I cannot remember him ever asking me where you thought the stone maps lead to. I’ve never started a conversation about your map or ideas concerning the maps with Peter or anyone else.

The reason I dropped out of your team is simply because I do not agree with your ideas. Joe, your ideas are trivial to me. I have never tried to find your circle stone or even follow the portions of your trail which I remember. I have my own ideas to run down.

Why do you have to try and smear people with bullshit. Why don’t you just tell everyone the truth.

That you’ve been looking in this same area each year for a long time and never found squat. You can no longer go in so you enlisted some locals to put boots on the ground for you and they didn’t find squat.

Now you’ve thrown it out there hoping someone, anyone will find something just to validate your ideas.

And you call me a snake.

It's stunts like this that drove many people away from this forum. It's now all yours Joe. Your own personal Stone Map forum. Guess Mr. Feldman will have to add even more advertisements.
Ronnie Kelso
Part Timer
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:45 pm
Location: Phoenix

Post by Ronnie Kelso »

HEY JOE,

The Moderator just let me out of jail!

It wasn't fun in there!

Hello all and Howdy!

I've been in storage for a while so I'm a little rusty. So let me get this straight, Peter is fighting with you Joe so soon after the Rendezvous is that what I'm reading?

Damn Joe, you sure do get the dander up on Peters Back side!

I'm surprised the two of you weren't wrestling in the Cholla after dinner at the Rendezvous!

So you had some of your LDM stuff stolen to Joe?

I know how that feels!

Good Work Marshall Joe!!

:lol:

Ronnie
Last edited by Ronnie Kelso on Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply