The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Stone Maps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Does anyone know why only two of the Stone Maps are in the picture on the front of the old car? Has anyone seen the other two, prior to their being copied on smaller stones? Do all of the copies conform to the originals, or were some things added and some removed? If you believe they are fake, who was the original perp? If not the finder, how did he end up with them, by chance? Any opinions or facts out there?
Joe

S.C.
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Reply

Post by S.C. »

I know this sounds like a broken record but...

I do not believe in the Stone Maps because of a comic book and a character named "Bobby"...

I do not know why the other Horse/Witch stone was not in the photo Joe mentions. Maybe it would not fit on the bumber... However, I DO BELIEVE that Tomlinson did find them as he always stated. I do not think he himself was behind the hoax. But, I think a hoax-ster of somekind placed them where Tomlinson eventually found them - just hoping someone would come along. Also... I DO NOT believe Bob Ward found them as he had claimed. Nor others...

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Post by Wiz »

Joe,
There's a fairly long thread on this subject on the old forum. Some of your questions were addressed there.

TC ASKEY
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Stone Maps

Post by TC ASKEY »

The 3rd Stone is in the Picture----The 2 part Map Stones are sitting on top of the Priest/Horse Stone---TERRY
TERRY - Update your email address. Current one is dead and you will not receive notices.

Roger
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The Stone Maps

Post by Roger »

There are 4 stones in the Stone Map set as follows:

1. Stone #1: Stone with Horse of Santa Fe on one side and the Priest on the other. An irregular shaped stone.
2. Stone #2: Contains only the word "DON" on one side and the lower portion of the map on the other side. A rectangular stone.
3. Stone #3: Contains a cross on one side and the upper portion of the map on the other side. This map side has the recess for the heart stone.
4. Stone #4: This is the heart map that has a portion of the map on one side and six oblong or rectangular shapes on the reverse side.

One of the best sources to get photos of all sides of the 4 stones is the book, Fools Gold, by Robert Sikorsky (1983). The photos do have some of the map stones covered up with tape. It is still in print and may be available at the SMHS - check their web site. Another book that has all of the stones exposed in color photos is " Lost Dutchman Mine Discoveries" by Jay Fraser (1998). Jay believes the LDM is up in the Cave Creek area so would not buy the book for that theory, but the Stone Map photos are very good. The SMHS should have this one also.

These stones were kept at the Mesa Southwest Museum for several years. A replica set were on display and the originals were kept in a vault in the back. In 1993 I made arrangements with the Museum to view the originals by paying a graduate student $15/hr to watch me while I examined them. I made rubbings of the maps and used a magnifying glass for examination. I found one thing on the Horse side of Stone #1 that I have never found in any published materials. At the top left of the this stone side, there are two "rivers" that run off the stone to the left. In examining the edge of the stone, I found that the river lines actuall run around the side of the stone and there is the words "SANTA FE" on the edge between the two river lines.

I posted earlier about meeting with Chuck Kenworthy and him giving me some (not all!) of the decoding of the stone maps which he claimed were encoded in a classical Spanish map maping method. The one point I would offer is that he says that the Horse side map has code that makes it a "mirror image" map and must be reversed right to left to be read correctly. Finding Santa Fe on the side of the map between the two rivers would thus match with this reversal. If you tried to read the Horse side map with the top North and East to the left, you would go in the wrong direction.

The info I posted earlier would provide some more detail on following these mines. However, the map will only get you to the general location of the mine, and the final exact location clues are so heavily encoded that only Kenworthy could understand them - who knows if he wrote this down. He was going to write another book on the Stone maps.

Food for thought and HH!!

Roger

Roger
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Error in My Post

Post by Roger »

Sorry, made an error in my above posting as follows:

If you tried to read the Horse side map with the top North and East to the left, you would go in the wrong direction.

This should read as follows:

If you tried to read the Horse side map with the top North and East to the RIGHT, you would go in the wrong direction.

Typing too fast. Ha.

Roger

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[b]The Stone Maps[/b]

Post by azmula »

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Last edited by azmula on Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lone_Wolf
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Post by Lone_Wolf »

I am always glad to see a new topic relating to the Stone Maps. :D

As I have mentioned before, I am a firm believer in the authenticity of the information inscribed on them. Like several other people on this website I own a copy of the reproductions made by Richard Robinson and cast from the same molds as the reproductions seen in the Mesa Southwest Museum and the SMHS Museum. I have attended lectures given by Robinson and have had private conversations with him concerning how he came to be in possession of the original stones to make the molds from, and his story of how and where they were found as he knew it. I won't go into these details in this posting because I have never seen this information made public by Mr. Robinson and believe that if it does get put out for the masses, It should be his option to decide when and where.

I also had a several discussions with Bob Ward before his death concerning his interpretation of the Stone Maps. Although Bob had some strange ways of interpretating certain things on the them, Some of his conclusions were very convincing when his (In the field) evidence (photos) were examined and compared to applicable lines on the maps. Since I never did know where he took the photos, I had no way of knowing if the locations were really in the Superstitions or just anywhere he found the shapes he wanted. To actually see the things in person and observe their physical relationship to each other in the field would have been great, but Bob's health was already too far gone by that point, and he refused to draw me a map to them. :(

As far as Chuck Kenworthy's opinions are concerned. I went to Two of his lectures on his interpretation of them. One he gave to the Members of the SMHS in the upstairs meeting room, and the other (open to the public) at the Pro Mack Mining store in Apache Junction. In addition to those lectures, I had a number of semi-private discussions with Chuck in the Lounge of the Grand Hotel in Apache Junction. Additionally, I made one short trip into the mountains with him to look at some of his "Landmarks". Because of my own belief in the Stone Maps I tried desperately to find something/anything in Chuck's interpretation that I could use in my own defense of them. Try as I did, I could never get a single thing from him that could be verified in any way. :( :? :x

He made a big thing in his book "Spanish Monuments & Trail Markers" about "Verification Marks" that could be found on his Monuments and Markers. My personal agenda for my trip into the mountains with him was to see for myself, one of his "Verification Marks'. To my regret, he provided me only with excuses for why he could not show me any. I asked him to show me one thing in the mountains that could be solidly linked to something inscribed on the Stone Maps, and again I was disappointed.

In all of my personal experiences with Chuck I never came up with a single bit of information that could be verified. In every case, you were simply expected to take his word for it. Please don't misunderstand, His Landmarks and Monuments DO exist! The photos in his books verify that! It's what he claims that makes them applicable to the Stone Maps that is in question and could not be verified.

Chuck made a lot of claims as to what he had found in the way of artifacts and treasures, but surprisingly, he didn't even have any photos of them to show. :?

You guys can buy his books and believe his stories if you want to, but you'll never get me to believe in anything you attempt to back up with what Chuck Kenworthy said or printed. :!:

Still, I am a believer in the Stone Maps. But because of what I have seen for myself in the mountains that I believe is applicable to them, Not because of anything Robinson, Ward or Kenworthy came up with. I am sure by now, you are all waiting for me to disclose something solid that will "Verify" to you what I believe to be a "True" Landmark pertaining to something inscribed on the Stone Maps. That's only fair, But, I'll put it as delicately as I can, I'm just not ready to share that information with the general public yet. What sets me apart from Robinson, Ward and Kenworthy then? That's easy. I'm not taking your money for my book in which I claim that you will find these answers!

I will give you something you can get your teeth into tho. Any good Prospector with a minimal amount of crevicing skills that works LaBarge Canyon below where Squaw Box drains into it, will come out with some gold in his bottle. That's something that you can go out and verify for yourself! You may even see some places where I have been digging around looking for bedrock. :wink: :P :o

LW

Joe Ribaudo
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A Horse of a different color

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

S.C.,
I will show you the horse eventually. Bobby will be nowhere in sight, but the author of that map will be more then a suspicion.

azmula,
I don't mind telling you what I have figured out at all. I believe the maps are legitimate. I know all of the important (approximate) locations. The mines, the trails, the monuments, the landmarks and the final location, which I believe was or still is a cache. One of the Xs on the maps is the location of the LDM. It conforms to other maps and stories that show or describe the location. I know the exact location of the horse and the witch. I have disclosed the location of the witch but not the horse. I believe they have nothing to do with the locations of the mines or cache. I know 100% where most of the map locations are, to the spot on the ground. The answer to your next question is: The Xs and the final location are in very rough terrain. The only possible open or obvious location, will be the LDM. We will search that ravine this year. The maps are not a precise locater for the mines or cache. It will take a lot of time on the ground to find the exact spots, if it's possible at all. I do not discount the possibility that the Stone Maps could be a hoax. There are good indications that two of them probably are. After my next trip I will have the answer to that question. Since the other maps and stories in the LDM legend support the location shown on the Stone Maps, for the Waltz mine, I believe something will be found in the ravine. I have been fairly specific here as to what I have "figured out". Does this give you a better perspective? I hope so, because this is all you will get until next year. :) Good hunting.
Joe

S.C.
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Reply...

Post by S.C. »

Lone_Wolf:

Good comments on Kenworthy. Your "in the field" work with him confirms the suspicions I had all along. He writings look interesting when in print. And probably sell very well. I have to say, I was a sucker. I bought all of them.... :( But, that doesn't mean I believe what was in them.

What you say about Squaw Box is interesting. I know of another canyon very close to that same place where if one did the same thing - digging down to bedrock and extracting stuff from the cracks there - one can find color as well. Interesting.... Gold is where you find it. I suppose one might find color of some kind in many drainages in the mountains.

Bob Ward's book - if you read it very well - "tries" to tell where he thought the Stone Maps would lead one. I am sure he makes some interesting assumptions along the way to make things fit his target area. Like rotating the map along the way. AND... I would not put it past him... to have taken liberties with photos. They might very well have been from outside the mountains - just shapes that fit his theories. For example, his photo of "Miners Needle" before the "earthquake" of 1936. Garman also has that picture in his book. Ward claimed a "major" earthquake in 1936 knocked the top of Miners Needle - giving it the "look" it has now. Strange... such a catastrophic event went unrecorded in the annals of Dutch hunting... Strange that no one made any comment about something so monumental happening... :? So... what does that say about some of the other assumptions Ward made. I do not want to belittle Ward. It is just that we must take what he said and put it into perspective - just as one should do with anything else anyone says or claims. I am sure Ward was a good man and well respected. Though, he might have been over-zealous. But can one blame someone for having dreams? Hardly...

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something missing?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

S.C.,
You have come up with a possible reason for the missing stones and Terry has stated that "The 2 part Map Stones are sitting on top of the Priest/Horse Stone".
Is Bobbies horse in a comic or coloring book? I am not thinking as well as I once did, and am a little confused on this point.

It seems a little illogical, at least to me, that someone would take the considerable time and effort required to manufacture these tablets and then take them to an out of the way, remote, location and bury them. He, I suppose, would then sit in his living room waiting in front of his T.V. with a maniacle grin, waiting for the news that someone had gone to that spot and dug them up. I am assuming that televisions had been invented at this time in my scenario. :) I am assuming you were not serious and am answering in a manner, which I hope, will bring a smile to your face, rather then having you go for your gun. You going to stick with that story, or have I made a point? If you are going to say that the maps are a hoax, you need to bring Tomlinson into the perpetration of that lie. My guess here, is that you will not there.

Terry,
The object that the two Stone Maps are setting on is not the Priest/Horse Stone, in my opinion. As a guess, I think it is a piece of wood planking. The edges of the object are too sharp and do not conform to the shape and appearance of that item. It would also seem logical, that the picture would show the face of that tablet, along with the others. If you closely compare the object, with the tablet in question, I think you might agree.
Is this one of the things answered in the old forum?

Wiz,
Since I know you are interested in the story of the Stone Maps, I assumed you would jump right into this topic.
Joe

Lone_Wolf
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Re: Reply...

Post by Lone_Wolf »

S.C. wrote:Lone_Wolf:

Bob Ward's book - if you read it very well ...
Ya know what S.C.? I have spent a considerable amount of time with Bob's book, but I really can't say I have read it very well. I can only consume about a dozen pages at a time before I get frustrated with it. I have a lot of respect for the man (Bob Ward) and the time and effort he put into the mountains. Few men, other than those that actually lived in the mountains like the Chuck Aylors, Barry Storms, Al Morro's, Ed Piper etc. knew as much about the Mountains as Bob Ward did. Bob was also an excellent story teller (Verbally), but trying to follow his train of thought as as an Author can be a real test of one's patience and endurance! :?

Bob was one of a special breed that's for sure. He Dutch Hunted with the best of them from Crazy Jake to Bob Corbin, and they all, in their own way, shared a common respect for him and his dedication to the mountains, the legends and the myths.

I absolutely agree with you about the possibility of many other places in the mountains where you could find color. I could even name a few myself.

But... I won't! LOL

To those who say "There is NO GOLD in the Supertstitons"... I say "How many times have you stopped, bent down, dug a hole and looked for it"?

ROGER... :)

I know your toe must be getting pretty sore from having it stepped on by us Kenworthy non-believers, but don't worry buddy, If we were all as open and honest about our beliefs as you are, I'll just bet you could do some pretty heavy stepping on our toes as well. I really enjoy reading your own theories, as long as they aren't based on anything you derrive from Kenworthy's information. :roll:

LW

S.C.
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Reply...

Post by S.C. »

Joe,

Bobby and his "horse" were in a coloring book (circa late 1930s) - not a comic book....

There was also a carrot involved... The farm also had sheep and pigs....

If there is a "horse" to be seen in the mountains, I am open to see it... But, if you show me a "horse" I will show you a "Don"... BUT... do they mean anything? That is hard to say...

Lone_Wolf,

I believe (and I might be wrong) Ward's "end point" was in Upper LaBarge Box on Coffee Flat Mountain... (East side???) which he called "Squaw's Teet"...

But... to get the Stone Maps to fit, one is required to do some amazing "bending" of the information on the stone maps... (rotatting the map...) considering his "start point." It just don't fit....

Lone_Wolf
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Re: Reply...

Post by Lone_Wolf »

[quote="S.C."]Lone_Wolf,

I believe (and I might be wrong) Ward's "end point" was in Upper LaBarge Box on Coffee Flat Mountain... (East side???) which he called "Squaw's Teet" ...[/quote]

I'm back with a new keyboard attached... (Notice I have SPACES now) :lol:

That is interesting S.C., I never did know where Bob Ward ended up. As I recall I never even figured up where he started out! :?

I'm not so sure but what 'twisting' the maps may just be appropriate in some cases, especially with what Roger pointed out about the Sante Fe on the side of the Horse map. That works really well with something I had been assuming for quite a while!

It is also interesting that the same area of Squaw Teet is where Barry Storm's "Modernized" Wagner Map takes you to. It was somewhere in the Upper LaBarge Box area.

And... wasn't the Howland ore supposed to have come from over in that area somewhere?

LW

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Reply

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

[quote="S.C."]I know this sounds like a broken record but...

I do not believe in the Stone Maps because of a comic book and a character named "Bobby"...

S.C.,
Are you trying to confuse this old mind? OK, I admit you may have a point with the Horse and Don thing. But the carrot and the farm animals are over the top. They do not fit for sure. :)

Seems like there is a lot of talk and speculation about turning and twisting the Stone Maps to make them fit someones area. Has anyone thought of turning and twisting the mountains to make them fit the Stone Maps? :lol:
Happy New Year to all.
Joe

Wiz
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Re: something missing?

Post by Wiz »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Wiz,
Since I know you are interested in the story of the Stone Maps, I assumed you would jump right into this topic.
Yes, I am interested in the stone maps. But, I find that my posts are not often acknowledged, and that the main participants in the forum dialogs are pretty much established. Don't get me wrong - I don't feel slighted at all. I don't have the anecdotal database that you, Tracy, and others have, nor do I have the historical knowledge of people like Peter, SC, Aurum, LDM, or several others. Therefore I choose to keep my mouth shut and listen to those who know more, and contribute once in a while if I think I have anything worthwhile to add.
I've printed a considerable number of these threads, and have read them several times. Some terrific dialog has taken place, and I've gleaned a few clues that I didn't have before.

I'd also like to welcome Lone Wolf to the forum. LW, you have a wonderful combination of historical and anecdotal knowledge, and a good sense of humor to boot. I'm glad you finally weighed in!

Belatedly, I add my voice to those thanking Greg Davis for his incalculable contributions to Dutchman lore and knowledge. Greg's a heck of a nice guy, too.

Finally, Happy New Year to everyone on the site. Keep up the dialog, and feel free to talk too much - I might just catch the clue I need! :P

S.C.
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Reply...

Post by S.C. »

Wiz,

You are hardly ignored by me. I scrutinize ever word you post. :)

I second the comments about Greg. Without Greg, we'd all be lost. :!:


Joe,

The other animals do not apply to the mountains... Just the "coloring book"... :wink:

The "DON" I referred to is a natural formation - large weathering patterns and fissures on the side of a mountain that - if one sqwints and the shadows are right - large "letters" appear seeming to form the word "DON" or maybe "DOI" - depending on how the shadows fall. These are hundreds of feet tall and can be seen from miles away - but only at the right time of day I am sure.

S.C.

Joe Ribaudo
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Who Knows

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz,
S.C. has finally typed the words FOR ME. I must have gotten on that particular list. :) I am in the exact same boat as you, gleaning knowledge from every post on this forum. I know that my general knowledge of the LDM lore is very limited, compared to the storehouse that is in the heads of LDM, S.C., Peter, Roger, WIZ, Ron and now some of the new arrivals on the site. I do however like to keep things flowing, even if it is just someone correcting my ignorance of the topic. If no one corrects my mistaken impressions, I will remain ignorant
.
I am personally devestated to hear that LDM will no longer be associated with this forum. I sincerely hope that he reconsiders that decision. I will miss that voice of reason and generous dispensing of personal knowledge. I hope it is not a result of the recent display of angry disagreement and personalized biting humor in which, I, had a large part in starting.

It seems to me, that there has been a heightened interest and participation in the forum. Anyone have an idea of what might have caused this sudden increased volume?

S.C.,
No one will ever see the horse IN the mountains.
Polzer questions the use of the heart shape by Spaniards of that era. Since the romantic shape of the modern day heart has been around since the fourteen hundreds and originated in Europe, it is unlikely that the shape was unknown to the people of Spain. Polzer seemed to have an agenda in his opinion of the maps. I do believe a number of items were added to the Stone Maps, in modern times, to confuse others. The knife is highly suspect and adds nothing of substance to the puzzle. The new information, at least new to me, of the writing of "SANTA FE" and the two river lines on the side of the tablet, also has no purpose, other then to deceive. I do not believe the Priest/Horse Maps are authentic, so no defense of them will be coming from me.

Joe Ribaudo
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Lone_Wolf
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Post by Lone_Wolf »

Joe,

It's strange that you bring Polzer into the conversation at this point in time. I was just reading about him on another website.

http://www.desertusa.com/mag02/sep/per_stone.html

After reading that, and following the links, I do get the impression that Polzer's opinions might get a little self serving from time to time.


LW

Joe Ribaudo
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Father Polzer

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

LW,
I have just visited the site you mentioned. It was indeed a strange coincidence that you were perusing, in the best possible since of the word, that site while I was forming my thoughts on Father Polzer. The fact that Father Polzer is a Jesuit Priest should not be passed over lightly. The fact that he is also "a well-known ethnohistorian" could also have some bearing on any opinions he might have, especially concerning an area like the Superstitions. Since he was a key player in the Mt. Graham controversy and case, Peter can probably give us a little more insight into the good fathers habits. :lol: I am laughing about "the good fathers habits"
Peter, any tidbits you can pass on?

Thanks for the information!
Joe Ribaudo

Peter
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Post by Peter »

Sorry, but I cant contribute much more to the "Dzil nchaa shi an" controversy than what someone using a good search engine can find.

Joe Ribaudo
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Polzer

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,
Mt. Graham is a little far from the LDM story. :) I was fishing for Polzer insight. Anything you might know that can't be found with a keyboard would be of interest.
I thought you might have some additional input on the latest Petrach posts. Seems like that would be right up your alley.
Joe Ribaudo

azmula
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The Stone Maps

Post by azmula »

I have been perplexed by several questions. Are the Maps decoded by signs and symbols? Are the Maps decoded by mountain formations? Did Kenworthy, Robinson, or Blair decipher the Maps correctly? Were the Maps created by the Spanish, Mexicans, Jesuits, or a hoax? What is the intent or function of the individual Maps?

How can we confirm the story that Bob Corbin had the FBI authenticate the age of the Maps. Did he have the Maps classified as antiquities of the State of Arizona and placed in the Dept. of Minerals and Mining Museum?

azmula

Heidi
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stone map questions

Post by Heidi »

Azmula,
No one answered your questions. Are the stone maps Peralta? If they are, why are there so many church markings on them? If they are Jesuit, is their any evidence that they worked mines in the area? As I understand it, they only used Indian labor to work mines. If that is true, could they have done that in the Superstitions? If they are Jesuit, how could there be an1847 date on them? I hope I am not asking to many questions as I have a lot more I would like to ask.
H

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Post by Rosebud »

Azmula wrote:

“How can we confirm the story that Bob Corbin had the FBI authenticate the age of the Maps. Did he have the Maps classified as antiquities of the State of Arizona and placed in the Dept. of Minerals and Mining Museum?”

Azmula, to pursue the story that Bob Corbin had the FBI authenticate the age of the Stone Maps why not write Corbin a letter and ask him? Surely one of his known associates (like Tom Kollenborn or Greg Davis) could get a letter to him. However, I heard that it never happened. But, what do I know. After all, how do you date carvings in stone that are only supposed to be 150 years old? A quick call to the ASU or U of A archeology people could probably answer that one.

My understanding of how the Maps came to Dept. of Minerals and Mining Museum is the same as how they came to the Mesa Museum, and that is that after the lawsuit the Flagg Foundation placed them with these institutions for public display and safe keeping. But, again this is only what I heard.

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