Merry Christmas to all.
I spent my Christmas day on Black Mesa, and poking around Second Water. For those of you not in the Valley presently, let me just say it's especially beautiful--the Four Peaks are covered with snow (except, oddly the top of the peaks), and there's quite a bit jotting the north face of Superstition and Black Top. I thought of you all while there, mainly those of you who couldn't be here to see it. I also began to wonder how many of the people I saw hiking around today might have been forum members, hehe. Kind of funny to think how we could very easily pass each other unknowingly on the trails!
I got into a conversation with a friend out there who brought up vorteces (Pl. vortex). I was wondering if any of you know of any in the Superstitions? There are frequent references to "power places" and the like, but am wondering if these are the same sorts of geological "events" that comprise the apparently magnetic phenomena of vorteces.
Now, I know by my earlier posts (esp. ones about ghost stories, etc. LOL), that I might seem like a crackpot to some, but I assure ya'll I am far from being a Sedona crystal-rubbing Shirley Maclaine type! Just looking to see for myself if there's anything to these suspect vorteces, places of power, etc. I go out to relax in the Supers on average four or five times a month as it is, and can't help but think, "What if there's something even better/more spiritual than just being out here?!"
Any input would be appreciated.
Hope everyone is having a good holiday season.
nick
Vorteces?
Reply
nicoh,
I believe in Power Places and what you would call Vortexes (Pl. Vortex - my spelling).
But, is - by definition - a vortex "good" or "bad". I hope "good." Because, if so, I have encountered at least one that was very strong. If bad, probably more.
Ever been someplace that really gives you the creeps for no reason? Well, there are a couple of places I know of in the Superstitions that make me feel that way. But, I know of one extemely "peaceful" place. Is that a place of power? I hope to think so. I would like to think power places are good places...
Where are these? Sorry... But, I have to keep them to myself. While I won't say where they are (because if I do, they will no longer be special...) I will at least acknowledge they do exist - at least to me. And that is all I will say.
I believe in Power Places and what you would call Vortexes (Pl. Vortex - my spelling).
But, is - by definition - a vortex "good" or "bad". I hope "good." Because, if so, I have encountered at least one that was very strong. If bad, probably more.
Ever been someplace that really gives you the creeps for no reason? Well, there are a couple of places I know of in the Superstitions that make me feel that way. But, I know of one extemely "peaceful" place. Is that a place of power? I hope to think so. I would like to think power places are good places...
Where are these? Sorry... But, I have to keep them to myself. While I won't say where they are (because if I do, they will no longer be special...) I will at least acknowledge they do exist - at least to me. And that is all I will say.
There are several that we have found. One was found by running cactus markers .The other area was located by other dowsers. These areas move.Like magnetic lines of force. The dowsing instruments respond extremely.We ran several first time dowser thru the anonomly and were able to note changes in the instruments actions in different locations.
We did not have any other tools back then to read magnetic flux or what ever.We did note that several areas that showed extensive Indian use thru out the centuries had stronger "pull" than barren areas.This was tested by using the inexperenced person with a dowsing tool.I hope to return to the areas this winter.These areas are east of peralta road .By the black mesa area. I remember the hair sticking up on my neck as the instrument responded the first time.I havent run that area is over 20 yrs.
The "fields" could destroy the best dowsers confidence.I wasnot the best but it trashed mine.These areas do move.I noted 45 feet change in less than a 2 month period. The problem with this type of study is influence from the tester. When some one says "The center of the "vortice" is on top of the peak,or middle of the flat." This will cause all believers to feel the power,and none believers to feel less than normal.
We did not have any other tools back then to read magnetic flux or what ever.We did note that several areas that showed extensive Indian use thru out the centuries had stronger "pull" than barren areas.This was tested by using the inexperenced person with a dowsing tool.I hope to return to the areas this winter.These areas are east of peralta road .By the black mesa area. I remember the hair sticking up on my neck as the instrument responded the first time.I havent run that area is over 20 yrs.
The "fields" could destroy the best dowsers confidence.I wasnot the best but it trashed mine.These areas do move.I noted 45 feet change in less than a 2 month period. The problem with this type of study is influence from the tester. When some one says "The center of the "vortice" is on top of the peak,or middle of the flat." This will cause all believers to feel the power,and none believers to feel less than normal.
I also have felt this in certain parts of the mountains that I won't name. The phenomenon is interesting. I have a relative that is very much into such things, but is not a crystal-rubbing wierdo. Rather, she is the genuine article, an educated, articulate, alternative-type person. We went to the vortices (sorry SC, I think that's correct) in Sedona, where I was told there are positive and negative ones. I couldn't really tell about the positive one, but I sure felt the influence of the negative one in the form of general irritation and pissed-offedness which left me when we left the vicinity. I've felt the positive influence very strongly atop Baldy Peak. I think Scott is right about the Indians being involved in a lot of those places, they undoubtedly picked up on the energy or whatever it is.
But I think there are other energies at work in the Superstitions as well that are not necessarily vortex-related. All of you who have spent time in the remoter parts of the mountains know what I mean. SC, you described it well.
But I think there are other energies at work in the Superstitions as well that are not necessarily vortex-related. All of you who have spent time in the remoter parts of the mountains know what I mean. SC, you described it well.
Nicoh and forum,
I thought I'd weigh in with my own experiences on this subject.
I too have felt the power of the place. I have sat atop one peak deep in the interior of the mountains and have felt a calm, serene "power".
I have also been in an area that sent me scampering for higher gound in a hurry...doubtless influenced by some of the spiritual residents that linger in that particular location. Something IS there. Whether caused by
electro-magnetic anomalies, the hand of the Almighy, old Amerindian spirits..or maybe a combination of all three.
I have seen certain animals act quite oddly in what I beleive is a "power" spot. I had some small knowledge of the way a "gagee' cho" might act if it was in fact on a spiritual mission...rather than just flitting about as they usually do. A companion and I climbed to the top of a place that I know has long been held to be a place of power by certain groups. The second
we arrived up top this animal came toward us..very odd behavior as the animal is notoriously wary of humans. I wasnt surprised as I had had experiences before with this animal, but I did turn to my companion and ask "..are you f----- kidding me?" ( I immediately felt bad cussing..it was like cussing in CHURCH). As soon as I spoke to the animal in a language I imagine it is accustomed to it left in the direction of another significant location. The behavior of the animal was so odd (of course, one might think me having conversations with animals as odd...but trust me..chatting with it was the most natural thing in the world in that particular place) that I later made inquiries to see if the the things hadnt been trained to do what they did...and learned that they had not, that they were either acting as messengers or memorizing me for events yet to come.
Funny now how I was once a sceptic...but now take something like a visit
from spirit messenger in the guise of an animal as a matter of routine fact.
The mountains indeed have "diye' nchaa"...much power.
I thought I'd weigh in with my own experiences on this subject.
I too have felt the power of the place. I have sat atop one peak deep in the interior of the mountains and have felt a calm, serene "power".
I have also been in an area that sent me scampering for higher gound in a hurry...doubtless influenced by some of the spiritual residents that linger in that particular location. Something IS there. Whether caused by
electro-magnetic anomalies, the hand of the Almighy, old Amerindian spirits..or maybe a combination of all three.
I have seen certain animals act quite oddly in what I beleive is a "power" spot. I had some small knowledge of the way a "gagee' cho" might act if it was in fact on a spiritual mission...rather than just flitting about as they usually do. A companion and I climbed to the top of a place that I know has long been held to be a place of power by certain groups. The second
we arrived up top this animal came toward us..very odd behavior as the animal is notoriously wary of humans. I wasnt surprised as I had had experiences before with this animal, but I did turn to my companion and ask "..are you f----- kidding me?" ( I immediately felt bad cussing..it was like cussing in CHURCH). As soon as I spoke to the animal in a language I imagine it is accustomed to it left in the direction of another significant location. The behavior of the animal was so odd (of course, one might think me having conversations with animals as odd...but trust me..chatting with it was the most natural thing in the world in that particular place) that I later made inquiries to see if the the things hadnt been trained to do what they did...and learned that they had not, that they were either acting as messengers or memorizing me for events yet to come.
Funny now how I was once a sceptic...but now take something like a visit
from spirit messenger in the guise of an animal as a matter of routine fact.
The mountains indeed have "diye' nchaa"...much power.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Power
WOW,
And to think that some people ridiculed my Indians in black. Can flying discs with Shirley McClain at the controls be far behind? The brain has all of the power, but it seems that your imaginations have taken control of your minds. That said, anything is possible, but some things are just a little more unlikely.
Joe
And to think that some people ridiculed my Indians in black. Can flying discs with Shirley McClain at the controls be far behind? The brain has all of the power, but it seems that your imaginations have taken control of your minds. That said, anything is possible, but some things are just a little more unlikely.
Joe
Joe,
I cant speak for other folks, but I can tell you that what happened with me happened exactly as I described it. It was nothing overly dramatic and not earthshaking..it was much more (to my mind) just a routine occurence and something I half-expected to happen. And in this case my brain (what little there is) had nothing to do with the event.
I cant speak for other folks, but I can tell you that what happened with me happened exactly as I described it. It was nothing overly dramatic and not earthshaking..it was much more (to my mind) just a routine occurence and something I half-expected to happen. And in this case my brain (what little there is) had nothing to do with the event.
Hmm. Well, I can prove magnetism exists...not sure about Black Legions or UFOs, since I've never seen either. But because I've also never experienced any of these suspicious "power places," either, I was asking the members of this forum where these places were that they thought they felt what they described as "good" or "bad" feelings. It is my suspicion (always the cynical academic, don't forget!), that these "places of power" are simply geo-magnetic activity. Now, if it turns out that these places are not due to physical occurences, but something else more mysterious or even divine, then all the better that it slaps an agnostic guy like me in the face. But like just about everything else on this forum--and with any theory--it's all imagined until you've got the inarguable, tangible, hard proof in your hands.
Geo-magnetic activity/gold/UFOs and Shirley Maclaine are where you find them LOL
n
Geo-magnetic activity/gold/UFOs and Shirley Maclaine are where you find them
LOL n
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Joe Ribaudo
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Power
Peter,
Your description of this feeling, while dismissing the influence of your own mind, seems to put little importance in the statement, "and something I half-expected to happen." What occurred that made you think that something like this might happen? If the mind expects an event to happen, especially one that is ethereal, (such as you experienced) it is a powerful tool in bringing that event to fruition. If you expected a feeling of fear or apprehension, which a number of members have described having while in certain parts of the mountains, it would be natural with your personal background and knowledge of Indian lore, to project a spiritual cause to your physical and mental discomfort. Unless the animals change into another animal or a man before your eyes, (shape shifter) your experiance is not beyond the normal. If when you speak to it, you receive an earthly answer, it sounds like the real thing or an imagination running hard. Only you know the answer to that.
Your statement in your last post, from the beginning to "a routine occurance" is the exact description of my one and only experience with the Indians in black. I had never heard of them and was not expecting such a meeting.
Aurum,
As you have intimated, these ceremonies have been going on since the beginning of mankind. In my mind, the power of reverence for your ancestors and the history of civilization, overshadows all other forms of
"diye' nchaa" (Thank you Peter). The ceremony you describe has and will continue to take place, in every corner of the world. When you stop to think of the numbers of people who are constantly renewing this faithfull observance around the planet, the power generated must be enormous indeed.
This has been an interesting topic. Thanks for sharing your collective experiences.
Joe
Your description of this feeling, while dismissing the influence of your own mind, seems to put little importance in the statement, "and something I half-expected to happen." What occurred that made you think that something like this might happen? If the mind expects an event to happen, especially one that is ethereal, (such as you experienced) it is a powerful tool in bringing that event to fruition. If you expected a feeling of fear or apprehension, which a number of members have described having while in certain parts of the mountains, it would be natural with your personal background and knowledge of Indian lore, to project a spiritual cause to your physical and mental discomfort. Unless the animals change into another animal or a man before your eyes, (shape shifter) your experiance is not beyond the normal. If when you speak to it, you receive an earthly answer, it sounds like the real thing or an imagination running hard. Only you know the answer to that.
Your statement in your last post, from the beginning to "a routine occurance" is the exact description of my one and only experience with the Indians in black. I had never heard of them and was not expecting such a meeting.
Aurum,
As you have intimated, these ceremonies have been going on since the beginning of mankind. In my mind, the power of reverence for your ancestors and the history of civilization, overshadows all other forms of
"diye' nchaa" (Thank you Peter). The ceremony you describe has and will continue to take place, in every corner of the world. When you stop to think of the numbers of people who are constantly renewing this faithfull observance around the planet, the power generated must be enormous indeed.
This has been an interesting topic. Thanks for sharing your collective experiences.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Strange Behavior
Peter,
You read something into my post that wasn't there. Of course your mind did not make that particular animal approach you. Your perception of its reason for doing so is a product of your mind alone. I have been in the mountains on more then one occasion and have enticed deer into the campfire and fed them from my hand. The supernatural had nothing to do with those events. Prior experience of the animals and natural curiosity brought them into my camp. Had I the benefit of your background, I might have given other meaning to the animal's behavior.
That does not mean your conclusions were wrong, only that there might be other explanations than the ones you attribute to this animal. I have spoken to many animals in my life and, at times, imagined they understood me by their reactions. The key word, of course, is "imagined". No spirit was working in these animals in my opinion, only in my imagination. You derive something of value to yourself in your perceptions of your relationship with this animal, so nothing negative in that. Makes the Superstitions more fun, so to speak.
Joe
You read something into my post that wasn't there. Of course your mind did not make that particular animal approach you. Your perception of its reason for doing so is a product of your mind alone. I have been in the mountains on more then one occasion and have enticed deer into the campfire and fed them from my hand. The supernatural had nothing to do with those events. Prior experience of the animals and natural curiosity brought them into my camp. Had I the benefit of your background, I might have given other meaning to the animal's behavior.
That does not mean your conclusions were wrong, only that there might be other explanations than the ones you attribute to this animal. I have spoken to many animals in my life and, at times, imagined they understood me by their reactions. The key word, of course, is "imagined". No spirit was working in these animals in my opinion, only in my imagination. You derive something of value to yourself in your perceptions of your relationship with this animal, so nothing negative in that. Makes the Superstitions more fun, so to speak.
Joe
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Tracy L Hawkins
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Joe Ribaudo
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Animals
Hi Tracy,
Wild animals hanging around camp is not unheard of. The reasons for this unusual behavior have nothing to do with the supernatural. As much time as you have spent in the outdoors, I am sure you have seen it more then once. Did the cougar actually come into the camp with the people, or just hang around the perimiter? If the campers would allow a cougar into their camp, they were not thinking very clearly, nor was the cougar in a normal or healthy condition. If it was an Apache Spirit, it would have tried to kill them all. That was their normal MOA. They made no true peace untill they were completly and utterly defeated. Your cougar would also have to be dominated in the same manner, to make peace with another species. The animals in the Superstitions are no different then those in any other part of the country.
There is no harm in perpetuating these myths as long as you do not let them influence your decisions. A number of people have a romanticized perception of the Apache of old. When looking at these people thru rose colored glasses, it would be prudent to remove those glasses on occasion.
Perhaps your cougar is the same animal that Peter conversed with.
Joe
Wild animals hanging around camp is not unheard of. The reasons for this unusual behavior have nothing to do with the supernatural. As much time as you have spent in the outdoors, I am sure you have seen it more then once. Did the cougar actually come into the camp with the people, or just hang around the perimiter? If the campers would allow a cougar into their camp, they were not thinking very clearly, nor was the cougar in a normal or healthy condition. If it was an Apache Spirit, it would have tried to kill them all. That was their normal MOA. They made no true peace untill they were completly and utterly defeated. Your cougar would also have to be dominated in the same manner, to make peace with another species. The animals in the Superstitions are no different then those in any other part of the country.
There is no harm in perpetuating these myths as long as you do not let them influence your decisions. A number of people have a romanticized perception of the Apache of old. When looking at these people thru rose colored glasses, it would be prudent to remove those glasses on occasion.
Perhaps your cougar is the same animal that Peter conversed with.
Joe
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Tracy L Hawkins
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Joe
That cougar came right into her camp and stayed around for several months. Nothing supernatural about her , just a normal cougar and she was fat and healthy. I always figured shehad been someones pet and had been released, She never at any time made an agressive move, she even slept in Woodys tent. I took supplies to her and Ed several times a week and the cat didn't run when I came into her camp but would hide if a stranger came around.No one ever tried to pet her but she would come up and rub on your leg ---seemed to be friendly --what can I say ???
TLH
That cougar came right into her camp and stayed around for several months. Nothing supernatural about her , just a normal cougar and she was fat and healthy. I always figured shehad been someones pet and had been released, She never at any time made an agressive move, she even slept in Woodys tent. I took supplies to her and Ed several times a week and the cat didn't run when I came into her camp but would hide if a stranger came around.No one ever tried to pet her but she would come up and rub on your leg ---seemed to be friendly --what can I say ???
TLH
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Joe Ribaudo
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Natural Cat
Tracy,
The cougar you speak of was not "natural". From your comments, it's obvious that the cat was someones pet. Surely everyone would invite a wild cougar into their tent to sleep with them, if she seemed friendly. Then again, maybe she was just bored and trying to strike up a conversion. Food an element in this story or did she seem to get her own? What happened when they left, did she follow anyone home or just call it a day? Did Woody invite her to sleep with him on the first date, or did he try to get to know her first?
Sounds like a tamed couger to me.
Don,
You say there was a band involved in this story? Why didn't someone mention this earlier? This brings up the distinct possibility of the cougar being a circus animal and changes the entire complexion of this discussion to a much more serious topic, that being, the use of animals for human entertainment. Perhaps we need a new topic for this line of information and how it relates to the LDM.
Joe
The cougar you speak of was not "natural". From your comments, it's obvious that the cat was someones pet. Surely everyone would invite a wild cougar into their tent to sleep with them, if she seemed friendly.
Then again, maybe she was just bored and trying to strike up a conversion. Food an element in this story or did she seem to get her own? What happened when they left, did she follow anyone home or just call it a day? Did Woody invite her to sleep with him on the first date, or did he try to get to know her first?Sounds like a tamed couger to me.
Don,
You say there was a band involved in this story? Why didn't someone mention this earlier? This brings up the distinct possibility of the cougar being a circus animal and changes the entire complexion of this discussion to a much more serious topic, that being, the use of animals for human entertainment. Perhaps we need a new topic for this line of information and how it relates to the LDM.
Joe
circus animals
yes jose there was inddeed a band involved in this episode-well not exactly a band but by all accounts the royal philharmonic orchestra which has a recording studio at the foot of weavers needle. and the cougar involved in the story was of course not a cougar at all but a member of the bluff springs secret society ( 3rd platoon) who frequently dress in animal garb to monitor "areas of interest" .as we all know this forum is also"monitored" partly because it allows the agents to divest themselves of their disguiuses for a while. i wish woleheartedly that i could elaborate further on this but as you can understand i have certain info that i cannot and will not divulge. happy new year.
Aurum,
Well said.
Problem I think is some folks make fun of or take lightly things that are said in earnest. At other times, folks take seriously what is said in jest. A problem we all have is that we really dont know whether someone is joking or not...cause words are words and we cant be sure if someone is chuckling while typing (which I admit to doing on occasion ..lol).
I do agree that the more civility we bring to the forum the better off everyone will be in the long run.
In any event I will apologize to TLH. Animal still wasnt a lion tho...
P
Well said.
Problem I think is some folks make fun of or take lightly things that are said in earnest. At other times, folks take seriously what is said in jest. A problem we all have is that we really dont know whether someone is joking or not...cause words are words and we cant be sure if someone is chuckling while typing (which I admit to doing on occasion ..lol).
I do agree that the more civility we bring to the forum the better off everyone will be in the long run.
In any event I will apologize to TLH. Animal still wasnt a lion tho...
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Apology
Tracy,
My biting humor may have offended you. That was thoughtless on my part and I do apologize. No disrespect was intended, but I can easily see where it could be construed that way.
Once again, I apologize.
Joe Ribaudo
My biting humor may have offended you. That was thoughtless on my part and I do apologize. No disrespect was intended, but I can easily see where it could be construed that way.
Once again, I apologize.
Joe Ribaudo
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Tracy L Hawkins
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