DON'T SAY THAT!!!don wrote:...maybe in truth the "dutchman" is or was just a small deposit of gold which was soon exhausted.
bluff springs nountain
Re: bluff springs
Re: Misunderstood
Good point.Joe Ribaudo wrote: If the Peraltas worked the ore up there, you would find the evidence in abundance.
As I recall, "Indiana" was the dog, which would make me...Joe Ribaudo wrote: Wiz Jones? The long lost son of Indiana, I presume.
Never mind!
I never realized there was any question about the identity of "The Four Peaks".Joe Ribaudo wrote: Is there not one person out there, who knows the names, or locations of the Four Peaks?
I thought Waltz covered the entrance to the tunnel (according to Brownie). The Apaches filled in the pit. Except for the hard-to-find one high up.Joe Ribaudo wrote: I don't believe for a minute, that Jacob Waltz filled in his mine. I know it is the popular theory, but it makes zero sense.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Beans and Franks!
Wiz and azmula,
There is no question where the Four Peaks are, when you are looking at them. The question is: Where is Four Peaks Mountain on a topographic map? No one seems to have that answer, so I will figure it out on my own. My interest is academic and casual at best.
Brownie says Waltz enlarged the pit around two, or two and a half feet and left a ledge about six feet down. He filled that in with timbers, laid in a criss-cross pattern for around four feet and filled in the last two feet with dirt. He was suppose to have worked the entire winter on the project.
Six feet is quite a cover.
Beans and Franks? What's that? You guys must be the real thing.
S.C.,
Good food is one of the things money can and in our case, does buy. Sleeping on air beds in a comfortable camp is another. We don't mind the five hundred per man cost and so far, Ron has not run out of pack horses.
I have experienced those rocky beds and simple meals for many years. As I look back on those fond memories, one question comes to mind: Why? The experience is the same, the views are the same and the excitement no different. I don't envy you guys your pretzels, beans and franks. Your a better man then I, Gunga Din.
Joe
There is no question where the Four Peaks are, when you are looking at them. The question is: Where is Four Peaks Mountain on a topographic map? No one seems to have that answer, so I will figure it out on my own. My interest is academic and casual at best.
Brownie says Waltz enlarged the pit around two, or two and a half feet and left a ledge about six feet down. He filled that in with timbers, laid in a criss-cross pattern for around four feet and filled in the last two feet with dirt. He was suppose to have worked the entire winter on the project.
Six feet is quite a cover.
Beans and Franks? What's that? You guys must be the real thing.
S.C.,
Good food is one of the things money can and in our case, does buy. Sleeping on air beds in a comfortable camp is another. We don't mind the five hundred per man cost and so far, Ron has not run out of pack horses.
I have experienced those rocky beds and simple meals for many years. As I look back on those fond memories, one question comes to mind: Why? The experience is the same, the views are the same and the excitement no different. I don't envy you guys your pretzels, beans and franks. Your a better man then I, Gunga Din.
Joe
Re: Beans and Franks!
Joe, maybe I'm dense, but I'm just not understanding your question. I've never heard of "Four Peaks Mountain" - only Four Peaks. And there's 4 of them, not one. A bit north of the Superstition Wilderness. They're on the Four Peaks Quad map, you can't miss them.Joe Ribaudo wrote: The question is: Where is Four Peaks Mountain on a topographic map? Joe
Is there something here I'm not understanding?
bluffspringsmountain
To answer ,I think Don's question, Sidney Brinkeroff was the director of the Arizona Historical Musuem , at the time of Magill and for many years. I don't think he actually endorsed Magill , on what he claimed he found , especially not after Glen Magill was indicted by the Grand Jury for selling phoney stocks in his alleged mine that he found. What Magill had was a best selling book with alot of adventure in the tale. I have never seen the guard towers and have been all over the top of Bluff Springs.
As for the Four Peaks lining up as one, it does come from the Holmes Manuscript. There are several places on the west side where Four Peaks may not line up as one, but if you change the verbage to, appear as one ,instead of ,line up, you can see that from the top of Black Top, exiting the trail head, ( the old trail head in the 60's) , amongst from other tops of mountains we all have been on. Of course they appear as one from Highway 188 going up to the dam also. An interesting story on that , I was for a brief time partnered up with Rick Peck in that area , in the Sierra Anchas. Believe it or not , we were looking for the Peralta mines , and the Dutchman Mine over there, but again that was a while ago and quite a story. That is one time if Rick wanted to go investigate something we flew from mountain to mountain to do it. Then we came to our senses, and went back to the Superstitions and never joined in the hunt together again. He was first class all the way. I however packed him in many times after that.
Nicoh,
You are probaly refering to myself as being one of the camps who believe in the east side. I can't remember Four Peaks aligning as one anywhere in the east side, but I could be wrong.
A litttle update on the excavation, that I have been silent about for awhile. We have been going through some sensitive pieces of the process before we begin, but it should not be much longer, at least that is what the Forest Service keeps saying for 2 years.
As for the Four Peaks lining up as one, it does come from the Holmes Manuscript. There are several places on the west side where Four Peaks may not line up as one, but if you change the verbage to, appear as one ,instead of ,line up, you can see that from the top of Black Top, exiting the trail head, ( the old trail head in the 60's) , amongst from other tops of mountains we all have been on. Of course they appear as one from Highway 188 going up to the dam also. An interesting story on that , I was for a brief time partnered up with Rick Peck in that area , in the Sierra Anchas. Believe it or not , we were looking for the Peralta mines , and the Dutchman Mine over there, but again that was a while ago and quite a story. That is one time if Rick wanted to go investigate something we flew from mountain to mountain to do it. Then we came to our senses, and went back to the Superstitions and never joined in the hunt together again. He was first class all the way. I however packed him in many times after that.
Nicoh,
You are probaly refering to myself as being one of the camps who believe in the east side. I can't remember Four Peaks aligning as one anywhere in the east side, but I could be wrong.
A litttle update on the excavation, that I have been silent about for awhile. We have been going through some sensitive pieces of the process before we begin, but it should not be much longer, at least that is what the Forest Service keeps saying for 2 years.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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Being Dense
Wiz,
I think I could have asked my question in a less confusing manner.
I can locate Four Peaks on the topo with no problem. Trying to line them up in a straight line so that they appear as one peak is another story. I assumed that I must be the one who was dense and looked for confirmation that I was looking at the correct peaks on the topo. Ron has cleared up the question in his post. I believe Four Peaks appearing as one mountain, rather then one peak is the correct interpretation. Four Peaks Mountain is mentioned if searched on the web. You can't find it anywhere else though. Try to line up Four Peaks on the Four Peaks Topo to appear as one.
Good luck!
Joe
I think I could have asked my question in a less confusing manner.
I can locate Four Peaks on the topo with no problem. Trying to line them up in a straight line so that they appear as one peak is another story. I assumed that I must be the one who was dense and looked for confirmation that I was looking at the correct peaks on the topo. Ron has cleared up the question in his post. I believe Four Peaks appearing as one mountain, rather then one peak is the correct interpretation. Four Peaks Mountain is mentioned if searched on the web. You can't find it anywhere else though. Try to line up Four Peaks on the Four Peaks Topo to appear as one.
Good luck!
Joe
Reply
I think Ron proposes something very valid. Did Waltz actually say "four peaks become one"? Or did he say something like "when four peaks almost appear as one"? There are many places where the four distinct peaks of Four Peaks become closer to appearing as "one" than "four"... Kind of two... Sort of... But squint your eyes and you "almost" have one...
However, despite that, there are MANY places where such a view is the case. It hardly narrows down the area much at all. Kind of like saying "south of the Salt River"...
Bluff Springs: I figured that those Guard Posts probably never existed. It is good to hear yet another person experienced with the area indicating they have never seen them. Just like the house in a cave supposedly on Black Top facing Needle Canyon and Bluff Springs Mtn. Yeah. Right.
Never the less, the book was very interesing and certainly inspired me to find out more about the LDM. But, some of the things thrown out there casually as facts are not correct. Re-read the book where the house in a cave is mentioned. It is thrown out with no back up. No photos. No more elaboration. No further discussion. But, it is so important in the interpretation of the map.
However, like I said... if it was not for that book, I would have never gotten interested in the LDM. The book is a good read and exciting. Full of adventure. It is good. Just not too accurate sometimes...
However, despite that, there are MANY places where such a view is the case. It hardly narrows down the area much at all. Kind of like saying "south of the Salt River"...
Bluff Springs: I figured that those Guard Posts probably never existed. It is good to hear yet another person experienced with the area indicating they have never seen them. Just like the house in a cave supposedly on Black Top facing Needle Canyon and Bluff Springs Mtn. Yeah. Right.
Never the less, the book was very interesing and certainly inspired me to find out more about the LDM. But, some of the things thrown out there casually as facts are not correct. Re-read the book where the house in a cave is mentioned. It is thrown out with no back up. No photos. No more elaboration. No further discussion. But, it is so important in the interpretation of the map.
However, like I said... if it was not for that book, I would have never gotten interested in the LDM. The book is a good read and exciting. Full of adventure. It is good. Just not too accurate sometimes...
Magill's Mine Location
The location of Magill's mine on Bluff Spring Mtn is clearly marked on Tom Kollenborn's map in the Special Section of Helen Corbin's "The Çurse of the Dutchman's Gold" book starting on page 121. The site is clearly on the NE side of the mountain and is marked as "Glen Magill Area 1966".
Has anyone checked this exact location?
Roger
Has anyone checked this exact location?
Roger
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Tracy L Hawkins
- Part Timer
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- Location: Phoenix Az
Magills camp
I haven't seen the map you are refring to but Magills camp was on a flat about 200 ft from the edge just above where they were digging
TLH
TLH
Bluff Spring Mountain
My partner and I spent the last 3 days on Bluff Spring Mtn, and saw a lot of stuff which prompts me to ask for information here.
In the bed of Hidden Valley, just north of Al Reser's camp (where we camped), we saw a claim marker for "Tuffy #2". Anyone know anything about this claim? We couldn't find any other markers.
We followed the old trail to the north end of the valley and up to a saddle at the NE corner, but couldn't find a trail down into La Barge. Anyone know where it is?
Someone is currently (or recently) using Magill's camp and has some gear cached there. (We didn't touch anything!). Anyone know who it is?
We think we found Magill's mining area about 1/2 mile south of his camp, there was some old steel stuff that might have been used to lower stuff over the edge. Further south we found a small cave that was walled up about 4' high, and another marker for "Lena Bash #2". Anyone know about this mine?
Finally, on the way out we met a fellow who said he was hooked up with a band of Dutch Hunters in the Palomino Mtn. area about 30 years ago, led by Van Suett (sp?). I've never heard of him, has anyone else here? I guess there was bad blood between these guys and Crazy Jake's people. This guy was great though, had a lot of stories and we wished we had more time to talk with him.
Bluff Spring Mtn has a LOT of stuff to see! And we saw mysterious footprints (but not another soul), a la Magill.
In the bed of Hidden Valley, just north of Al Reser's camp (where we camped), we saw a claim marker for "Tuffy #2". Anyone know anything about this claim? We couldn't find any other markers.
We followed the old trail to the north end of the valley and up to a saddle at the NE corner, but couldn't find a trail down into La Barge. Anyone know where it is?
Someone is currently (or recently) using Magill's camp and has some gear cached there. (We didn't touch anything!). Anyone know who it is?
We think we found Magill's mining area about 1/2 mile south of his camp, there was some old steel stuff that might have been used to lower stuff over the edge. Further south we found a small cave that was walled up about 4' high, and another marker for "Lena Bash #2". Anyone know about this mine?
Finally, on the way out we met a fellow who said he was hooked up with a band of Dutch Hunters in the Palomino Mtn. area about 30 years ago, led by Van Suett (sp?). I've never heard of him, has anyone else here? I guess there was bad blood between these guys and Crazy Jake's people. This guy was great though, had a lot of stories and we wished we had more time to talk with him.
Bluff Spring Mtn has a LOT of stuff to see! And we saw mysterious footprints (but not another soul), a la Magill.
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Tracy L Hawkins
- Part Timer
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- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm
- Location: Phoenix Az
Wiz
I am afraid I have very little to offer to the forum as I am not a hardcore Dutch Hunter and my knowledge is insignifficant compaired to the members of this forum .
I have spent many enjoyable days in the mountains and hope to spend a few more soon but my intrests lay in the mountains themselves and the stories connected to them . My personal feelings about the Duchman is that he did not have a mine as such but had found one of the Puraltias stashes as all of my reading on the subject leads me to believe he sold gold from several differant mines and that is very unlikely from one source.
I am much more inclined to believe Harry Frances' story than to dig holes in rocks .
I have no doubt that somewhere in the mountains a mine exists and would like to see someone find it , if for no other reason to prove or disprove the stories.
I am afraid I have very little to offer to the forum as I am not a hardcore Dutch Hunter and my knowledge is insignifficant compaired to the members of this forum .
I have spent many enjoyable days in the mountains and hope to spend a few more soon but my intrests lay in the mountains themselves and the stories connected to them . My personal feelings about the Duchman is that he did not have a mine as such but had found one of the Puraltias stashes as all of my reading on the subject leads me to believe he sold gold from several differant mines and that is very unlikely from one source.
I am much more inclined to believe Harry Frances' story than to dig holes in rocks .
I have no doubt that somewhere in the mountains a mine exists and would like to see someone find it , if for no other reason to prove or disprove the stories.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Bluff Spring Mountain
Wiz,
Bluff Spring Mt. has a well delineated boundry. It has been really gone over thru the years. Most searchers were not following a map, but just walking and climbing the surface. Unless you have a specific clue to find, I doubt you will stumble on anything that others have not found in the past. You will find some breathtaking views, and they are worth the climb.
It must be nice living close enough to the Supes to make those short trips in. My dad and my uncle both lived in Apache Junction for a number of years and made frequent trips. They moved into the Junction for the sole purpose of being close to the mountains.
I hope you and the rest of the members of the forum have a great holiday season. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.
Joe
Bluff Spring Mt. has a well delineated boundry. It has been really gone over thru the years. Most searchers were not following a map, but just walking and climbing the surface. Unless you have a specific clue to find, I doubt you will stumble on anything that others have not found in the past. You will find some breathtaking views, and they are worth the climb.
It must be nice living close enough to the Supes to make those short trips in. My dad and my uncle both lived in Apache Junction for a number of years and made frequent trips. They moved into the Junction for the sole purpose of being close to the mountains.
I hope you and the rest of the members of the forum have a great holiday season. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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Re: Harry
Tracy,
Your comments are hard to argue with. I believe I am close to the cave of gold bars and think it is connected to many of the legends surrounding the LDM. I won't make it into the area I believe the cave is in on my next trip, but will be at that location in 2004.
Joe
Your comments are hard to argue with. I believe I am close to the cave of gold bars and think it is connected to many of the legends surrounding the LDM. I won't make it into the area I believe the cave is in on my next trip, but will be at that location in 2004.
Joe
Re: Bluff Spring Mountain
That's what I'm trying to find out: has anyone seen these markers, and does anyone know some of their history? I didn't think I had made some great discovery - I just want to know who's claims they were, etc. I guess nobody knows.Joe Ribaudo wrote:Wiz,
Bluff Spring Mt. has a well delineated boundry. It has been really gone over thru the years. Most searchers were not following a map, but just walking and climbing the surface. Unless you have a specific clue to find, I doubt you will stumble on anything that others have not found in the past. Joe
Merry Christmas to you too, Joe, and to everyone else!
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Tracy L Hawkins
- Part Timer
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- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm
- Location: Phoenix Az
Wis
Back in the 60s Van Sewitt (sic?) had a large group of men in the mountains posting claims everywhere they could get . Dale Howard and I had several run ins with his bunch over placing markers over his ( Dales) claim on Black Top.
If the markers you found were 4by 4 posts painted white they were most likely his --
I haven't been on top of Bluff Springs for about 8 years an would have no idea who is up there now , sorry , can't help a bit there .
Have a Marry Christmas and happy hunting
TLH
Back in the 60s Van Sewitt (sic?) had a large group of men in the mountains posting claims everywhere they could get . Dale Howard and I had several run ins with his bunch over placing markers over his ( Dales) claim on Black Top.
If the markers you found were 4by 4 posts painted white they were most likely his --
I haven't been on top of Bluff Springs for about 8 years an would have no idea who is up there now , sorry , can't help a bit there .
Have a Marry Christmas and happy hunting
TLH
Thanks, Tracy, same to you.
The markers we found were old dilapidated posts, maybe 2X2", with a square of aluminum nailed to the top. The square was engraved with one of those engravers that leaves lines of small dots, so it was handwriting made out of dots. This suggests they were fairly recent. The words were sort of hard to make out, but I think I had it right. Wonder who's they were.
The markers we found were old dilapidated posts, maybe 2X2", with a square of aluminum nailed to the top. The square was engraved with one of those engravers that leaves lines of small dots, so it was handwriting made out of dots. This suggests they were fairly recent. The words were sort of hard to make out, but I think I had it right. Wonder who's they were.
Re: bluff springs nountain
Here's some pictures of Tuffy #3 claim maker I found on the east ridge of Bluff Springs Mountain
- Attachments
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- tuffy #3 close up.JPG (51.38 KiB) Viewed 23177 times
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- tuffy #3.JPG (49.09 KiB) Viewed 23177 times
Re: bluff springs nountain
Does anyone here have any pictures they would care to post of "Hidden Valley"? Just curious what it looks like from the bottom.
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padutchman
- Greenhorn
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- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:18 am
- Location: Alaska
Re: bluff springs nountain
Troybass,
For some reason, your pix did not finish loading. I got a bunch of pixelated lines and an incomplete image. Did your pix load ok on your browser?
Bill
For some reason, your pix did not finish loading. I got a bunch of pixelated lines and an incomplete image. Did your pix load ok on your browser?
Bill
Bill Bear
Wasilla, Alaska
Wasilla, Alaska
Re: bluff springs nountain
I got the same thing Bill. They must have been loaded wrong.padutchman wrote:Troybass,
For some reason, your pix did not finish loading. I got a bunch of pixelated lines and an incomplete image. Did your pix load ok on your browser?
Bill