Sunset

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
KW
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Post by KW »

Today, for the first time in a long while, the sun once again sets on Jacob Waltz's gold.

-K
nicoh
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Post by nicoh »

Well put! Yep, there's probably a good many of us here that have a little of the old Romantic period in us, especially to notice and then to commemorate today's date, the day that kicked it all off for us a hundred plus years ago! Good catch.
nick "look under the bed" holthaus
Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jacob Waltz has left his empression on a lot of people. His last words are said to have been a blessing for Julia Thomas. Thinking of others as you lay on your deathbed shows the real character of the Dutchman. He lived in hard times, where men had to make hard decisions. It's nice to see people paying their respects after one hundred and twelve years. Not for the mystery, but for the man.

Joe
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Post by Wiz »

Waltz's last words! I wonder what they really were: the blessing for Julia, the long tirade to Dick Holmes, or did he just gurgle and die? Given that Julia was selling tickets to spend a couple of minutes with him as he died, I'm skeptical about the blessing. Seeing as how he bailed her out of some pretty bad financial troubles, she should have been blessing him!
He was a tough old bird, though - a real man of his times.
I wonder what he would think about how things have developed over the last 111 years.
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz,
The story of Julia selling tickets to watch Waltz die is a new twist on a story that has been around for over one hundred years. Considering the research which has gone on over that period of time, I find it a little strange, that no one has even hinted at this story before now. I will take the best evidence available, which is the Waltz obituary stating he died with a blessing on his lips for Julia. Considering the character of the people at that time, such a heartless stunt would have been common knowledge over the entire city. Bark and Simms would have both mentioned it, at least in their notes, if not to her face. I know Bark was trying to get information out of Julia at the time, but someone like Bark would not have tolarated such an act without speaking out, if only to question the truthfullnes of the story. Barry Storm or Barney Barnard would have loved to put this story in print. I don't buy it for a minute.
I have been close to this story for over forty years now, both in the Supes, Apache Junction and Phoenix, with old timers who had been looking for twenty to thirty years prior to that, and never heard even a whisper of this sensational story.
As for Julia blessing Waltz, I believe she did just that by caring for him. If you have ever taken care of someone who was dying, which I have many times over, you would know the gratitude that must have been expressed by Waltz at every oppourtunity. Even if Waltz was a coward, I believe he would have defended Julia's reputation, to his death. I don't for a second think I have heard it all, so of course, I could be wrong.
Joe
S.C.
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Question

Post by S.C. »

Joe,

You mentioned that the "selling of tickets story" is a new twist on a story that has been going on for over a hundred years. What is your knowledge of the original? Was there a different story?

S.C.
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi S.C.,
The only story I know of, has been repeated by most writers until now. Julia cared for Waltz to the moment he died. The rest, as far as I know is fiction, and I for one believe it to be just that.
Joe
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Post by Wiz »

Joe,
I'm not sure you can consider Bark or Ely at all reliable sources. Ely said Julia died in poverty, yet the records apparently indicate she was quite well off when she died. Also, obituaries (as well as other newspaper features) were not at all averse to embellishing the facts in those days, and the blessing part may well have been made up.
The "selling tickets" story appears in the family papers of several prominant families of the day, written by people who had no reason on earth to make such a thing up.
Just like you, I could be wrong. But I think the truth is somewhere in between all these stories. But one thing seems certain: Waltz did not give Julia any usable directions to the mine. Look at the facts: she knew he had a source of gold, and she was no dummy. She would have been paying close attention if he had tried to tell her where it was. Maybe Rhiney was a flake, but she had her wits about her and would not have ignored him or daydreamed. He just didn't give her anything she could use.
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Post by Aurum »

xx
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz and Aurum,
The information you guys have is amazing. The time, effort and probable expense needed to gather the documents and evidence I have read in your numerous posts is impressive to think about. I don't think I could do it if I had another forty years. Since I am retired now, maybe......no. I take off my hat to the members of this forum, who have persevered to gather the information I have read here.
As for Ely, as I remember it, he did not get his book published before his death. I seem to recall someone else fixed-up his manuscript and had it published after his death. Perhaps his son? If so, many things could have been added or removed to make it a better read. Wouldn't be the first time or the last for that to happen. I don't know what evidence you have that casts doubt on Barks veracity, but both of these men have been spoken of with nothing but respect by previous authors and those who actually knew them.
The idea that Waltz may have been angered by Julia's alleged selling of tickets to his deathbed,on his last day alive seems a very remote possibility. This woman cared for him during a long convalescence. She would have fed him, bathed him, probably wiped his butt, soothed his fevered body with cool cloths, cleaned up his puke and generally kept him
dry and comfortable until the moment he died. Assume you were Waltz, What would you "gurgle' with your last breath. Perhaps poetic license was taken with his last spoken words. You still have a 50/50 chance of being correct, whichever way you go.
I have had the privilege of holding the hands of a number of people as they died of pneumonia. For the most part, they drown in their own fluids. None were capable of talking during their final hours, which could go on for a long period of time. Delirium and semi-coma have been the norm, in my experience. Waltz in all probability did not know what transpired on his last day. Remember, he had been sick for an extended period of time. It is likely he had no strength left at the end. Did he have any kind of a conversation with anyone on his last day?
Perhaps, but more likely not. Each man dies in his own manner, some with stoic bravery, others whimpering like a baby. My guess is Waltz said nothing rational, if he could say anything at all.
What you say concerning individual perspective is totally correct as to the writings of various authors on the LDM. I personally prefer to accede to the ones who were closest in time to the Dutchman. Time has a way of polluting history. It is even more pronounced with legend.
Wiz,
All your statements concerning Julia are true, as far as I know. Your conclusion that Waltz gave her nothing she could use is based on the lack of results on her search. As I said before, I believe she had the correct information, but began her search from the wrong place. If I were to tell you to enter the mountains at a certain place, and you would, by following
that well marked trail, find a specific landmark, stone house in a cave, monument or horse head marker and it would show you the location of my mine, you would find it, right? Suppose you could not find the place to start on that trail. You try another, no landmark! If you never find that trail, you will probably never find the landmark and it is unlikely you would ever stumble onto the mine. The directions from that landmark could have been very simple.
Aurum,
Bark was not searching or compiling his notes for profit, other then locating the mine itself. I don't know that Ely started out to write a book. If so, he could and should have done it a lot sooner.
As for Alkire being a more prominent Arizonan then Jim Bark, that may be true, but it in no way lessens the stature and reputation of Bark. The selling of tickets to the Waltz deathbed has no bearing, in my mind, to the search for the Lost Dutchman Mine. Whether Alkire was truthful, or lied, is of no significance to me. Since this is all conjecture, I could of course, be wrong.
Thanks for your replies.
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

Joe,
Much as I'd like to be recognized as a crackerjack researcher, I feel obligated to 'fess up: almost everything I know came from commonly-available sources. The "selling tickets" stuff came from Tom Glover's book, where the Frank Alkire document is also referenced.
Guys like Glover, Peter, S.C., LDM, Azmula, and several others are, on the other hand, the real article - genuine researchers with a lot of time and effort invested.

Concerning the character of Jim Bark, though: He may well have been the gentleman rancher and paragon of virtuous western values that he's portrayed as being by his contemporaries - but I doubt it. Those were tough times and tough people. Read Ron's book "Crooked Mountain" for an alternate take on some of the local gentry. Granted, it's a work of fiction, but Ron says it's all based on fact, and he's done his share of research. I've also seen glowing accounts of Brownie Holmes' character that don't jibe with some of the horror stories I've heard about him from other, less formal sources.
Here I go again, quoting other people's work. But when I apply the reasonableness test to these things, it just doesn't seem likely that Bark was such a saint.
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Post by LDM »

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Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz,
Let me preface these comments by saying I have tremendous respect for Ron. His knowledge and accomplishments are well know by all of us. I would not however take Crooked Mt. as a reference book on the LDM. I think Ron would be the first to say he threw a wide loop on the legend. It might be thought by some that Ely did the same, but I believe the general concensus would be that he was fairly faithful to the pertinent facts of the story. Any parts of his book which may have been colored by others, were probably inconsequential to the important facts. I have a hard time accepting the small bites being taken out of the character and reputations of Bark and Ely. Since you all have had more access to documented facts then I have, I will retire from that conversation. This is all my personal opinion, so I could be wrong. Thanks for the info.
Joe
S.C.
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Reply

Post by S.C. »

LDM and Aurum have put a little perspective into this controversy. I think what we see beneath the surface of the current discussion is the ever present "debate" between the Holmes and Thomas/Petrasch camps. People tend to settle into one or the other and then find anything contrary to their beliefs hard to accept. I am as guilty of this as anyone. This is especially true of Waltz's final hours and the role Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts played. This implies the question "WHY?" Why would Waltz turn his back on Thomas at the last moment? Many explanations have been presented. The Frank Alkyre recounting of events is often cited. As was pointed out, even if the Alkyre "tale" did not exist, something "suspicious" was going on. In particular, the “speed” that Waltz was buried. Then there is that Rhiney was on a "bender" that night, of all nights. Plus comments made by locals questioning Thomas's actions at that time. That all combined with the subsequent accusations, lawsuits, and counter suits lead one to believe something out of the ordinary was happening. As Aurum pointed out, since we were not there we will never know exactly what happened. All we can go by is indirect evidence.

Aurum mentioned that the Alkrye story was not new with Glover. That is true. Aurum mentioned the tale appearing in the 1930s and 1940s. I believe that to be true. I seem to remember seeing something myself along those lines in an article from that time frame.

LDM also mentions a reference from 30 years ago. That is probably the telling of the event in Robert Joseph Allen's book from 1971. LDM was polite. Allen's book took MANY liberties with the entire LDM story, not just a few. It was more than "literary licence." Never-the-less, the "selling tickets" incident is related - though with Allen's usual twist. Allen wrote as if the info came direct from Alkrye and that is doubtful. More than likely he obtained his info from one of the stories in print Aurum mentions. Thus, as LDM and Aurum have pointed out, it is not new.
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

S.C.,
WOW! Robert Allen. My friend you have a mind like a steel trap. I read his book just one time, many years ago and could not tell you one thing he wrote. I have never looked inside that book again. After all those years, the only thing I remember, was that I thought it was pure fiction. I just re-read the portion concerning the death of Waltz, and I doubt I will see the inside of this book for another thirty years. That passage did not peak my interest to re-read his work. You guys have not missed a thing.
It does make me wonder if you have all this information on your comupters. Under Waltz death, everything ever written concerning that event. Don't misunderstand my opinion here. I would love to have just such a file. My wife would tell you I am way to disorganized to put together such a thing. One of the reasons I have a hard time relating the stories I have heard over the years, is because I never bothered to write them down. Veni, Vidi,..... I forgot. My book will be as big a work of fiction as Allen's. The big difference is that it will take you to a specific location and bring a lot of the stories and maps together at that place. The geography will be real, the story pure fiction?
As far as this post is concerned, I don't believe I could be wrong.
Joe
Roger
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Holmes vs Petrasch Versions of Jacob's Last Hours

Post by Roger »

In the research I have done on the LDM, I have reached the conclusion that the Dick Holmes version of Jacob's deathbed mutterings is pure fiction. I would not think that Jacob would confide in a person that had followed him into the mountains and would probably have killed him if he had been successful in following him to the mine. The most believeable facts I have found around this issue were published in the Superstition Mountain Jounal, Volume 2 - Number 3, July 1982. Milton Rose wrote an article in this issue titled "The Last Days of Jacob Waltz" that states:

"The men present when Jacob Waltz died were David Schoulters, Charles Roberts, and Simon P. Carr. Schoulters and Carr spoke some German. They acknowwledged this to Justic of trhe Peace M.P. Griffin on October 27, 1981, after Julia appeared before him and swore that the three mem named had stolen a bag containing $500.00 in gold from Waltz's locker under his bed.
Griffin notified the three men to appear before him on the 30th of October. On the 29th, Julie personally notified Griffin that she had found the bag of gold behind her front gate that morning. Griffin then closed the proceedings and dismissed the case.
I talked to the three mem and they told me that they had attended Jake for several days before he died. That they had heard every word that he said about himself and the mine. That they had helped him draw the map for Julia nd Rhinehardt. "

Note the absence of Dick Holmes at Jake's deathbed and Milton had personally talked at length with the three men that were there.

Roger
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Post by S.C. »

One should not put too much into what Rose had to say regarding Waltz.

I could go on and on. But, please.... do not put your eggs in his basket.

I have spent many man-hours trying to confirm some of his claims and came to dead ends.

The referenced lawsuit.... just does not exist.

Please keep in mind everything that Rose did in his final days was biased to support his own theories and beliefs.

He was a good guy. But, some things got the best of him. His belief in his own theories led to some "stretching of the truth"... I guess he never really thought anyone would "check it out"... But people have. It just did not happen that way... And, there is evidence to the contrary.
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

S.C.,
I was a little suprised to see Rogers post. Glad you put in your opinion. I was afraid I was going to have to look into one more story. Nice to have guys like you doing so much leg work and sharing it with the masses. I do however agree with Rogers conclusion on the Holmes version.
Joe
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Post by LDM »

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S.C.
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Post by S.C. »

Thanks LDM for "tempering" my statements. I was rash about completely dismissing Rose. It is just that I take issue with some of his claims.

The three men in question could have talked to Waltz near the end - that is true. They also could have taken gold (some gold). True. And, I agree, the court records are far from complete - and not finding something does not mean it did not exist at one time.

The same applies to Gideon R. and Holmes.

It is just - to me - I tend to believe that Holmes and Gideon Roberts were the LAST ones with him. Yes, the others could have seen him on his final day just as well. But, to whom did Waltz give information? All of them? I don't think so. I still lean to Holmes. I think many people at that time claimed to have been with Waltz during his final hours. The three mentioned probably made a good case to Rose, who believed them. They probably did see him. But did they receive any important information?

The one thing that always impressed me was the dogged persistence of the Holmes family and their unwavering belief in a specific set of information that never changed with the passage of time. Their actions speak for themselves. It indicates to me that they had something (information) that they BELIEVED in. No one puts that much energy into something they "made up."
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Post by LDM »

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S.C.
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Gideon Roberts

Post by S.C. »

I always thought that if Waltz was going to 'fess up to someone, it would have been to Gideon Roberts. Having known each other so long, having traveled the same paths, gone to the same destinations, lived in the same areas, it was only natural Gideon Roberts would have been a person Waltz would have trusted. Holmes and Roberts indeed had a reason to be together that day. But, at best, at Waltz's bedside, Holmes was the tag-along. It was to Gideon to whom Waltz probably spoke.

If one will "suspend disbelief" for a moment and look at what supposedly Waltz said in that deathbed confession, one might be surprised what Waltz was trying to do. We tend to see it as a weigh-bill to the mine. But it wasn't. Waltz was confessing to wrongs he commited. Supposedly the death of men. Now, perhaps the Holmes family exaggerated the story a bit as it appears in Brownie's manuscript, but Waltz was trying to come clean. Gideon Roberts would have been a person he trusted to whom he could speak.

We will never know what really happened. Who told who what... But, many scenarios can be conceived that are all equally valid. I made the point, and LDM made a similar point - there is the persistence of the Holmes family to take action and search. Of all the "candidates" in the "deathbed scenario" Holmes was the only one to go out and look for the mine.

That is not to say he did not tell Julia Thomas anything. He did. And she searched too.
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

S.C.,
It would seem that all possible bases have been covered as to who was with Waltz when he died. Having said that, I would not be suprised to have someone else show up shortly.
The persistence of the Holmes family is not unusual at all, even if they had no information from Waltz himself. We only need to look back over the last one hundred plus years to find dozens of men and women who were even more persistent. It could not be said that the Holmes family destroyed themselves over their search, but others did. They did not give up everything they had to the search, others did. They were persistent, but not obsessed, others were. The people I speak of did not have the information that Holmes was purported to have received directly from Waltz. Their information was all second hand and worse. In the overall scheme of things, an impartial observer might consider the Holmes family as casual searchers, compared to some.
Lets suppose that S.C., LDM, or I were at the Waltz deathbed, and he gives us the correct directions to the mine. Do you think any of us would have failed to find it. Now consider the same information in the mind of Julia Thomas. Does she have the same chance of getting to the mine? Now suppose you were Holmes, at the deathbed, and Waltz makes no statement concerning the location of his mine. You look under the bed and find the most beautiful raw gold you can imagine, in a sack. After you steal the gold and get it home, what would you be thinking? At what point in your life would you abandon that thought?
It seems that the general concensus of opinion is that Holmes did steal the gold. If so, is it a stretch to believe he was also a liar. Once the lie is told, how do you rid yourself of it? Do you eventually convince yourself it's the truth. Do you confess to your friends, your son and family, that you are a thief and a liar? Perhaps your life becomes the lie.
Seems like a lot of ink is drying on this topic. All qualified speculation, except for mine, which is just pure speculation, so I could be wrong.
Joe
Ron
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Post by Ron »

A few years ago, while searching through some of the old newspaper files , I found an article , dated , I don't remember the exact date other than it was about a year after the Dutchman died. It was stated that Julia had taken Richard Holmes to court and sued him for the gold that he stole from the Dutchman. She probaly, and rightfully so, thought it should belong to her. She lost the case. This would give reason to believe that Holmes was there. I later went back to relocate that article , and to this day have never found it. The collection that it was in , owned by an individual , that I won't name , had claimed to of never seen the newspaper article. I wonder , have any of you seen it? Maybe it was already stated as such, but I missed anyone refering to of also seeing it.
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Post by LDM »

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