The Black Legion

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Joe Ribaudo
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The Black Legion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

About 35 years ago, I made a trip to Black Top Mesa to work on Chuck's claim. My dad Tony, Ernie and two other guys were also on that trip. We worked the weekend and drove back to the trailer park Chuck was living in. On the highway a car came alongside us. I was sitting in the back and noticed two guys dressed in black suit coats and wearing black cowboy hats. I had never heard of the Black Legion and paid little attention to them other then to notice them glancing over at us. When we got to Chuck's, we started tossing the camping gear out. At that moment the same car, drove slowly past us with the two guys inside staring at us. Chuck and dad both noticed them this time. I told them I had seen these guys pull up beside us on the highway. They drove by and left the park. Obviously no coincidence.
A few years later, Ernie had stopped at a store after leaving the mountains. He had his revolver on the seat next to him. Two men dressed in black with black cowboy hats, pulled up next to him and one got out. He walked over to Ernie's vehicle and told him to stay out of the mountains. Ernie picked up his revolver and laid it on the door. The guy walked right up to the gun and pointing his finger at him said, "STAY OUT OF THE MOUNTAINS, OR WE WILL KILL YOU". Ernie did not pull the trigger. Guy turns on his heel, gets back into his car, and they drive off.
My story is true, Ernie made me believe his.
Any other eyewitness accounts out there?
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tracy L Hawkins
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Black suits and cowboy hats ????

Post by Tracy L Hawkins »

Joe
Ernie and I were together for several years as we bought the deeded land of the Quarter Circle U ranch from Joe Lamb and were living there for several years . I never heard this story from him --Knowing Ernie he was never one to let a good story go to waste for the lack of a few well chosen adjectives.

TLH
Joe Ribaudo
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The Black Legion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Am I the only person on this forum who has run across these guys? That is really hard to believe. Like Elvis, have they left the building? A lot can happen in thirty years, but I thought these creeps would still be around. Perhaps no modern day hunters are searching in there area of interest. :lol:
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Reply

Post by S.C. »

I guess I am interested if anyone has, too, Joe.

These guys seem like the equivalent of the UFO "men in black" and it is hard to say they are around these days. Maybe back before 1984 - when there were real "vested interests" in "claims" and the like in the mountains - these guys were pretty visible and made their presense known. However, I would not be surprised if Crazy Jake was behind these "men in black."

Perhaps today the stakes are not as high - after all, these days no one gets anything any more because of the laws - except in rare cases like treasure troves and non-obtrustive panning for color.

Even though they might not be around today. Maybe somebody ran into them in the past and can add to the discussion...
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The Black Legion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

S.C.,
These boys were red, not white, and large for the locals.
S.C.
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Black

Post by S.C. »

What do you mean "large"?
Joe Ribaudo
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The Black Legion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Large, as in football player size.
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Post by Peter »

Thats interesting, as many of the MIB (Men In Black) reports from the eastern portion of the US in the 60s described the MIB as having "asiatic" or "indian" features.

As to the implication that this was an American Indian with ties to the mountains that tried to warn someone to stay out...I tend to doubt this as that is not their M.O.
Joe Ribaudo
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The Black Legion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,
I have heard many stories over the years concerning the Black Legion. They all point to warnings to stay out of the mountains, as exactly their M.O.
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Post by Peter »

What you have heard Joe, are STORIES.

There is no "Black Legion".

Nor was there.
Joe Ribaudo
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The Black Legion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,
We were obviously followed from the mountains to Phoenix and into the middle of a large trailer park by two Indian looking chaps. Your absolute statement falls on deaf ears here. I will agree it's possible there is no such thing as the Black Legion, but there was someone trying to make us believe it exists. We are talking about two different subjects when we compare The Black Legion and MIB.
When you believe there is such a thing as the LDM, your judgement is suspect by most of the educated world. Since you have never seen any of these chaps, it make me wonder at the reason for such an imperious response. It seems out of character for someone who's previous post's are so knowledgeable and well thought out. Was it something I said?
Please don't take my caustic nature personally. I like to keep the argumentative juices flowing. :lol:
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Post by Peter »

Joe

Depends on someones definition of "Black Legion".

I beleive most folks familiar with the subject matter would define the BL to be a secretive group of Amerindians dedicated to protecting "something" (cache? mine? sacred area? burial sites? all of the above?) in the Superstition region.

To think that a group of Indians, particuarly Apache, has some sort of silly secret society that goes around giving veiled (or unveiled) threats to people who they perceive to be encroaching on their "turf" is ludicrous.
To do so reveals ignorance of Apache culture and societal customs.

Old warriors like like Goyathla, Nana and Mangus could not give a fellow warrior an order and expect it to be obeyed. Each Apache was/is a sovereign individual and acted as such. The thought that an Apache would join something such as the BL and "sign up" to pull guard duty is silly.

That said.....it will do well to remember in most things LDM that there IS a kernel of truth in most of the legends. I am not discounting your story,
I simply beleive that from the smattering of knowledge I have about these matters, that it is unlikely that you were accosted by an overlarge member of the mythical BL. You sure you fellas didnt see any flying discs in the vicinity? lol
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,
Sounds like you have the Apache angle down pat. The idea that they could not individualy function in a secret society sounds much like the Italians denying the existance of the Mafia. Now if you happen to BE an Apache, I would take your word at the same worth as the Italians mentioned above. On the other hand, if you belong to the white eyes, chances are you could be out of that particular loop. Your assumption that I am ignorant of Apache customs and life, is perhaps justified by my previous posting, but untrue. I know I am a rank amature in this field compared to you, and I say that with respect for your obvious background.

The first condition of a secret society, is that it be secret. There would be conditions and requirements to enter or gain knowledge of that group. Speaking the language or having many friends among the group, might not be considered a qualification. The purpose of this topic was to see if any other Dutch Hunters had similar contacts. It would seem I have my answer. I have never been accosted by these people. They followed us a long distance and into the trailer park. I have never seen one since that time. It's possible, if they ever existed as a formal group, that there is no longer a reason for their continuation. Since I saw them 35 years ago and I don't know the time span of your own experiance, things might have changed.

You seem to hold the Apache in high esteem. That does not square with your assertion that they would be incapable of joining something like the Armed Forces, The FBI or any other organization requiring pulling duty.
What you say of the old warriors is perfectly true, but only true of the sub-chiefs. If you consider the supreme influence of chiefs such as Dasoda hae, Cochise and Victorio, I believe few would have refused to follow their commands. Those leaders and those days are long past.

In the time period I am referring to in this discussion, the warrior society of the Apache does not exist as it was in the time of Red Sleeves', Alessandro and his son Natush, Capotcari in the time of Father Kino, Chalipun, who surrendered at Camp Verde to Brevet Major General George Crook, soon to be promoted to brigadier general as a reward for his successful campaign. Newer times, newer Apache, newer ideas and conclusions.
Joe
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The Black Legion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,
Goyathlay does not belong on the same level as Mangas or Cochise. All were able and ferocious leaders, but Geronimo was not well thought of by most Apache. They were leaders who were revered to the point, that most would follow their orders. Geronimo had a limited following, but they made an effective team. Perhaps those who chose to run with the likes of Geronimo would have thumbed their nose at such leaders, but then they would have also treated Geronimo the same way. Guess that's the difference between a great chief and a medicine man.
As for a secret group among the Apache, such a group did exist around 1882 They were described as secret service men and women from among the most trusted Apache, at least by the army. They performed their duties thoroughly and faithfully, according to Briton Davis. Davis had an Apache man and woman working for him in this capacity at Turkey Creek.
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Wiz
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Re: The Black Legion

Post by Wiz »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:You seem to hold the Apache in high esteem. That does not square with your assertion that they would be incapable of joining something like the Armed Forces, The FBI or any other organization requiring pulling duty.
I don't think Peter said they were incapable of that. Just that culturally, they were (are?) not prone to be joiners or followers. However, this cultural bias certainly wouldn't preclude something like the BL, which might seem like a good idea to a group of them. I don't think the Apaches would be incapable of anything that seemed like a good idea to them.
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The Black Legion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz,
In 1851 the Apache penetrated Mexico to Mazatlan. They devestated it. Somehow the leader of that raid, gathered enough warriors who must have followed his orders for a long period of time, in order to accomplish that feat. That kind of campaign was not carried off by a bunch of unregulated warriors doing their own thing. Large parties of warriors, I have read up to five hundred, would be led into battles in Mexico. Someone followed orders. Someone was a joiner. Obviously they had a lot to gain. Most Americans who join any group, do so for personal gain. Not just for monetary gain, but for many reasons. The Apache were capable of the same thing. The most important thing of all to an Apache, was the truth. Liers were not thought well of in the tribes and were shunned. They lied however to everyone they ever made a treaty with, never for a moment intending to live up to the agreement. In a number of instances, they would leave from such meetings raiding and killing before they even got home. That applies to most, but not all of the Chiefs. I believe generations of Apaches who believed that truth was important above all other virtues, would have no problem signing up to protect sacred lands. I am well aware of the independence of the Apache warriors, they were much the same as Americans throughout our own history. All my opinion, so I could be wrong.
joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Wiz »

Joe,
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was only trying to point out that what you were saying and what Peter was saying were not mutually exclusive. The Apache could be independant free-thinking people and still band together under a leader they respected to pursue a cause they all agreed with. That was, as I understand it, one of the great Apache virtues - the ability to sway others to your way of thinking.
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz,
I agree with your assessment of the Apache. I suppose what got me going with Peter, was his absolute statements that there is no Black Legion, nor was there. Following that with "silly secret society", and "ludicrous". This was followed by,"to do so reveals ignorance of Apache culture and societal customs" and then stating "'sign up' to pull guard duty is silly". He summed up his comments with the flyling disc question. LOL
Without opposing opinions on any given topic here, we just descend into a mutual back patting fan club. Peter was responding to a post requiring a strong opinion. That was not accidental, but deliberate on my part. His responce to me also required a strong opinion and that was no accident either. I respect Peter's opinion because I know that it is based on a sure knowledge of Apache background and history. My opinions' are not based on current Apache mores and custom. I am a casual student of Apache history, starting in the Spanish era and ending not long after Geronimo's death. Peter on the other hand is obviously a scholar of Apache life. It is not my intintion to change his opinion, but rather that he change mine with his knowledge. In sports, I always wanted to compete with players I could not beat. It always improved my own knowledge and ability. I hope that Peter will condescend to give me the same results in the always fascinating life of the Apache.
Peter,
If I offended you, I apologize. My intent was as stated above.
Joe
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Post by Peter »

Hello Joe,

No offense taken. I simply havent been around much to make a reply.

I still stand by the fact that there is no Black Legion, nor has there been...at least not in the sense that you are talking about.

About Goyathla's leadership abilities. Apache followed a leader during times of war for one reason...that leader had to have a significant amount of "power". Power was not something all Apache had/have. A man rising to a prominent role among the Chiricahua had to have a certain amount of "power", otherwise a warrior would not follow him. Goyathla had his own power, so did other warrior/chiefs like Nana, Mangus and Juh.

In addition there was another warrior with Goyathla's last group that may have had more "power" than the above mentioned names combined....but he chose not to lead.

As to the independence of the Apache warriors........ this might be best illustrated by the fact that two warriors with Goyathla during the final days
threatened to shoot him if Goyathla shot 2 Apache scouts who were coming into camp to parlay. These scouts were relatives of these warriors
and Goyathla backed down from these 2 warriors ...as he well knew that they would not have hesitated in carrying out the threat.
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The Black Legion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,
Nice to be talking to you again. We have strayed a bit from the Black Legion, but we are talking about a subject that I am partial to.
Had Kayitah and Martine been shot by Geronimo, it would have been a more appropriate ending for him, then his eventual simple death. Both men were related to Geronimo by marriage and I must confess, I don't know who else in the final band were related to them.
Nachez was the hereditary chief of this band, being the youngest son of Cochise. He was overshadowed in the tribe, first by Juh and after his death, Geronimo. Only a small group of Chiricihaua loyal to Juh and Geronimo accepted this leadership. At the end, from what I have read, Nachez had more influence with the band then Geronimo or any other warrior. The only other warrior of note, that I know of, that was with the final band of Geronimo and Nachez, was Chihahua, a well respected Apache Subchief.
None of the Apache we have named were as respected among their people, except for Cochise, as Dasoda hae, Victorio or some of the earlier Apache I have mentioned. Compared to them, Nana, Mangus, Nachez and Goyathlay, might truly be considered a yawn as Apache leaders.
Now my question is, who among the last group with Goyathlay had the power you speak of.
Joe
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Post by LDM »

Deleted.
Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Peter »

LDM

Problem that most pindah-likoye (white-eyes) have is that they tend to look at things in a sensationalist manner, rather than just looking at the simple facts..some of which you touched on in your post.

THERE IS NO BLACK LEGION.

However, do some traditionalist Apache families look after some sacred sites scattered throughout AZ ? Probably.

Are some of these sites in the Superstitions? Maybe...maybe not.

Would it be a good thing for folks to go messing around in certain areas looking for old artifacts? Probably not.

What would be the reaction of any of us if some Apache decided to visit the nearest cemetery....dig up grandpa..and sell his remains and articles buried with him on Ebay? I imagine we wouldnt be too happy about it.

Food for thought.
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The Black Legion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

LDM and Peter,
Interesting posts. I don't believe the Apache ever had an organization called The Black Legion. I do believe they had and probably still have, an organization that we white eyes have labeled in a sensational manner.
My original post was not written in a sensational manner. I gave only facts
and asked for opinion. When I related a contact with these people where I was not a personal witness, I stated that fact. Since you both have said you have never seen the Indians in black, it would be normal for you to be skeptical. Since I have seen them, it is normal for me to believe they may very well exist.
Peter says, "would it be a good thing for folks to go messing around in certain areas looking for old artifacts? Probably not." How would we know what place would be classified as-certain-areas? If it's not a good idea, what might happen? Since there have been a number of unsolved murders and disappearances in the Superstitions, would it be unreasonable to consider them as, what might happen?
Peter, you seem to be trying to play both sides of this topic. Do you have a good reason for your, " Maybe......maybe not" position? My guess is probably yes. Since you appear to have an inside track on this question, most will draw their own conclusions, I am certain, from your ambiguous comments.
LDM,
It might be helpful to us white eyes, who are stumbling around all over the Superstitions, to know which mountain is Dzil Nchaa Si An. I don't think many are interested in digging up Apache graves, considering how they buried their dead. That assumes, of course, that the LDM is not one of the places a great warrior was dropped into.
Nice to know Mr. Nosie was treated fairly by the justice system. He had every right to worry that he might not get a fair shake.
As for ancestral burial sites, it does not seem likely that the Apache would have had such a thing. Finding the burial place of an Apache Warrior would be next to impossible, from what I have read. The death of a woman was not an important event, normaly and no importance would be attached to her last resting place by the tribe in general. If you have a burial site in the Superstitions, which is being guarded by the Apache, it would be the lone body of a great leader, and of course, his horse. Any leaders with that kind of power in the general area, Peter?
Thanks to you both, for giving us your qualified input on this topic.
Joe
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Post by Peter »

The Dzil Nchaa Shi An (mountain much my dead) is NOT in the Superstitions, rather in the Gila headwaters country from my understanding.
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter wrote:The Dzil Nchaa Shi An (mountain much my dead) is NOT in the Superstitions, rather in the Gila headwaters country from my understanding.
Peter,
Although you are emphatic with " NOT " you leave doubt with your ending.
Was that your intention, or do you believe you have irrefutable evidence supporting your conclusion? It seems from your statement that someone, presumably Apache, has given you this information.
If LDM's posting is factual, which seems very likely considering his stature in this forum, Mr. Nosie (a Chirachaua Apache) places Dzil Nchaa Shi An in the Superstitions. I assumed you have the Apache name (Shi)spelled correctly.
Any location of this mountain as related by the Apache to a white man should be suspect. The available information to us at this time seems to indicate the Superstitions as the most likely location. Care to elaborate?
Joe
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