The Black Legion

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
bill711
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Black legion

Post by bill711 »

Amen DED; NOW you can,t say anyone is wrong? You cannot tell them that they are mistaken due to hurting their feeling! BLAH, and FART! bill 8)
blacktop
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Post by blacktop »

Save our Forum.

Boycott Joe Ribaudo

Boycott his camp out

Ban him from this site entirely.

Enough is enough with this ASSHOLE.
bill711
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Black legion

Post by bill711 »

WELL blacktop oldtimer; my butt and your lipps!!! bill 8)
blacktop
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Post by blacktop »

Save our Forum.

Boycott Joe Ribaudo

Boycott his camp out

Ban him from this site entirely.

Enough is enough with this ASSHOLE.
Grayhair
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Location: Apache Junction

Campout

Post by Grayhair »

I would guess from the tone of your posting you were not invited to attend the campout. To bad for you and great for those who are going to attend, as we are all looking for a great time and would hate to have the company of you and others like you in our presence.
blacktop
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Post by blacktop »

Save our Forum.

Boycott Joe Ribaudo

Boycott his camp out

Ban him from this site entirely.

Enough is enough with this ASSHOLE.
redison
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Post by redison »

blacktop,

I don't believe that even the anti-Joe people appreciate that approach.

redison
Joe Ribaudo
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Bull Sense

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

I believe the forum is worth the effort that it takes to keep it maintained.

It goes without saying, that I have been a big part of this turmoil. For that, I apologize.

Another big part has been the silence, in the face of bullies, that many of the old timers felt was the right course. Perhaps they are correct.

Here is what happens when the old bulls are absent (silent):

In a game preserve located near Pilanesberg, South Afirca, a number of juvenile bull elephants were brought in from another game park. There were no older bull elephants in their new home.

Mother nature brought these young bulls into sexual maturity, ten years earlier than usual. The older cows would have nothing to do with these teenagers and they went berserk.

"According to a Los Angeles Times report, the teenagers have killed rhinos, charged cars of safari-goers, and even killed one German businessman who was rescuing his toddler who had fallen out of a car window."

In addition: "Some teen-age bulls have taken to mating with the white rhinoceros....Several of the rhinos have been killen in the process. Other young bulls are taking out their aggression on people, charging groups of tourists...."

"To solve the problem authorities introduced a half dozen adult bull elephants-all more than 40 years old."

"In the six months that followed, there were no reported incidents with rhinos or tourists."

Without the presence of the old timers on this forum, without their wise voices and occasional rebuke we will get "blacktop". Pretty much the same thing that happened in South Africa.

Dr. Glover and LDM,

This forum is worth saving from the imature bulls. To do that, we need your voices.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
ILoveJoeRibaudo
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Back to Help !

Post by ILoveJoeRibaudo »

Joe,

What happened? I heard everyone was being mean to you again! Don't worry I have come back to help you save the forum ! We will save the forum together. That's a good idea you have about the elephants. First drive the forums best contributors away, then ask them to come back and help you save the forum. Brilliant !

Hooray for Joe, he'll make things right !

As always:

I Love Joe Ribaudo

PS It looks like alot of people don't want to talk to you anymore. Don't worry. I'll talk to you ! I'll talk to you ALOT ! Hooray !
redison
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Post by redison »

ILoveJoeRibaudo

I probably disagree with Joe Ribaudo more often and intensely than anyone on this board, but at least I do it under a username that I am known as by several people. I did not creat a false identity to make my posts under. I think your tactics stink.

I had many friends that gave their lives and limbs in Viet Nam fighting for Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. (Including FREEDOM OF SPEECH)There are many fine young men dying in the Middle East today fighting for the same beliefs.

If you disagree with anything Joe says you have the same rights on the blood of those graves to voice your opinions, but what you are doing is nothing more than an abuse of that right. As an American (and I assume you are) you have the right to do that too if you so choose, but I will not be a part of it.

I will probably disagree with everything Joe says in the future as I have in the past, but I will not voice it in the open forum because of the people like you that jump into a dispute for no other purpose than to fan the flames.

There was a time that I would have liked to have seen Joe just fade away and stay away by his own choice. He didn't, he chooses to be here, and as an American I choose to defend his right to be here and say anything he chooses.

Especially when unlike yourself, he chooses to put his name on the bottom of it.

redison
bill711
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Black legion

Post by bill711 »

Amen Redison! I agree fully! Peter should just have said " Joe I have my beleif,s and you have yours and I will not talk about it any more Period. The other,s are just crap yes I said that CRAP who are just piling on to get some imagined slite evened up with joe. Joe was just telling peter where he was getting his info from and Peter was telling Joe he was wrong? Peter was saying that the official documents were wrong? I thought Peter was the one being RUDE? Doc Thomas and ldm YOU 2 were very well in the wrong here too. You were not even involved in the talks! I believe some people here owe Joe an apology here for this episode! Beginning with the Peter who hehaved very rude with his actions.... Bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
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Standing Up

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

For those of you who are fighting back against the destruction of this site, I thank you, for the forum. For the most part, no one is defending me, which is as it should be. The side you have come down on, is the forum's side. Many have missed that point.

Redison, who I have treated poorly from the start, has shown his true colors and is doing the right thing. Once again, he is not defending me, but standing up for the LDM Forum. I have been wrong in my overall opinion of the man's character, and sincerely apologize for my caustic remarks.

I understand the motivation for many, to not get involved in any way.
Many of the members are doing research and writing books. To continue that process, and maintain their sources, they feel they must remain silent. "The end justifies the means". :?

The volume of information that has passed through this site is enormous.
For it to continue, the people who have come here with an agenda, must be told they are not welcome. One rat stuck his nose in the door, and we are now infested with dozens. That is the results of silence.

It is not in my nature to hold a grudge. I will shake the hand of anyone who want's to call an end to this. That includes Peter, Wiz, Wyatt, Jan, k.k......whoever.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
JIM HAMRICK
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the black legion

Post by JIM HAMRICK »

To all of you good people who follow this site, have we not had enough of this.

I though that this site was for people to express their feelings, ideas, and opinions about the issue raised. I do not care if you have b.s. running out your ears I read it all and find some things to think about.

Many thousands of years ago man started to stand on his hind legs can we not do the same today? If you have a problem with what is posted please attack the post with a contridictory stance and back it up with reason. We should in no way attack the person but attack their ideas. Personal vendettas do not have a place here.

In my life I have been called about every nasty name you could conceive and found that they did not harm me, but they could get in the way of what should be productive work.


Jim Hamrick
zentull
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Post by zentull »

On any discussion board you will have a difference of opinions. There are always several individuals who will think they are being funny, when it is mostly disruptive to the flow of the board. Occasionally there is an individual singled out and in most instances the offending party or parties are to say the least unable to post for a period of time. I don't believe in censorship and I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but each time there is a flow and everyone starts to hit walls as far as agreements, the same crows come to roost. I have disagreed with most everyone and agreed with everyone, depending on the topic and the facts presented. Everyone can't be wrong all the time. Even I have my days when the juices are flowing and I make sense to myself. I have disagreed with several keypoints with Dr Glover and yet I wouldn't be prone to think worse of him. I would hope equally so, he would think I am only 1/2 the idiot I appear to be when responding. If you are that sensitve to a difference of opinion then find another planet.

I think setting up camps and taking sides is stupid. There are no sides in this issue. There are discontents whose primary purpose is to disrupt the board for everyone with juvenile statements and a ten year old mentality, because of one individuals opinion. As soon as there is an opening in they swoop hoping to alienate one person. In the process most discussions are ruined because of this. Anyone else who had to face this would have left disappointed that it was tolerated by the others on the forum at all.

In the one time Joe and I had a person to person discussion via the telephone, he had plenty of chances to let loose on the subject. He showed restraint and did not point fingers. He hoped it would resolve itself without any major changes to the forum.

Joe posts his opinion. :twisted:
Joe says he is right. Joe says he was wrong. Joe apologizes. Joe disagrees. Joe agrees.
Joe posted his address.
Joe posted his telephone number.
Joe posted his email.
Joe signs his name to every post.
Joe is probably not perfect. 8O
Joe may even realize this. :P
As much as you may feel there is too much Joe at times, at least he is more than the shadow most of us present here on the forum. There also would be a surplus of emoticons that could put the emoticon people out of work if he quit posting.

I have no problem with anyone here as long as posts target the subject and not the author. I am sure Dr Glover and Greg Davis have followed leads that were either dead ends or led to a change of opinion. I am sure they both have had errors in judgement on materials they have researched. The reason they share opinions and knowledge here is not to boast, but to further their knowledge through our research, ideas and opinions. I would hope that is the case for us all.
bill711
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Black legion

Post by bill711 »

Amen Zen. ! bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
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Did I Say That?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

"You didn,t really think that your books could carry as much weight as some old indian fart,s imagination do you?"

It's almost impossible for us to understand the abilities of a people without a written history, of their own, to memorize the oral history of their people through generations. They have a "developed" ability to remember, word for word, what they are told.

There are many things that can impair the facts in the telling of that history. All of the infirmities of man conspire to create mistakes.
That is why there are oposing stories, even in the same tribe.

It is more than possible that LDM misunderstood what Sam Kaywaykla was trying to convey in his discussion with him. Many of the Apache do not agree, like us, even when two parties observe the same event.

It is possible that Sam and James Kaywaykla understood the "facts" of what was being spoken, with opposing conclusions. Much like what happens here, every day.

Ask any youngster today, who was Nathen Hale? You will likely get the same blank stare as asking an Apache youth, who Perico was.

Go to the Mescalero Reservation and ask Ellen Bigrope or Oliver Enjady who Perico was, and you should be prepaired to sit down and listen for awhile. I know neither of those people, but I do know of them.

What was common knowledge among the Apache over a century ago, is not so well known now.

For those of us who don't have a reliable Apache source, we must put our faith in the research and books of those who made an honest effort to put the history of the Apache in writing. They used multiple sources that were close to the events to get their "facts".

That does not mean their "facts" are any better or more accurate than the "remembered facts" of the Apache, but they are a little more accessable to the rest of us.

"Put my name in your book so that, when I am gone, they will know that you told the truth." (Bernard Second)

Why would "they" know that Claire Farrer had told the "truth"?

Because they understood the "word bond". They would know that Claire was not allowed to write or copy his words, in any way. Bernard's Power had brought her to him. He predicted it, as well as his death. She remembered everything he said. She remembered everything she was shown. His power worked through her.

That is how the Apache passed their history down through the ages. I believe that same power worked in this thread.


Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
murphy
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Post by murphy »

Redison, Zentull, Jim, thank you for bringing some much needed words of wisdom to this site.
Joe, I think if more members would express the same respect and maturity that you and these other gentlemen have today, I think Dr. Glover , LDM and others who have tired of the bickering and left would come back too. I hope so.
In the end it is our differences of opinion and viewpoints that make us grow and change. Thats what makes this forum exciting.
murphy
Joe Ribaudo
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"The Moving Pen....."

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Murphy,

Thank you for the kind words. It is never too late to do the right thing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: Death Of A Warrior

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Zentull and LDM, Talk about informative! Those were some great "Apache" posts.]

Having LDM deleat his posts is the saddest thing that could have happened for those who have an interest in Apache history and beliefs. It pains me that I had anything to do with that happening. I love going back and re-reading his old posts and do it often.

I said that I believed that "Power" was working in this thread. If that is true, LDMs words are still with us. They are with me.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
bill711
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Black legion

Post by bill711 »

WELL JOE; Now here it is in the flesh? We see the worms who delete if they don,t feel like they get their way? That is what your delete is! WE are back to the shitty little kid who will pick up his toys and go home if he doesn,t get his way :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: BAH BAH let the little unmanly ones go; they want someone to bagg their stinking behinds to stay! BUT I will not do it. The more you bag them the more they will pull their little game. PISS on them....bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
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A New Direction

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

The Forum is moving in a new direction. I have said many times that I believed there were people working in the shadows to destroy this site.
Others have voiced the opinion, privately, that the reason behind that effort was because of the information that was being passed along here.

That information encroached on certain member's areas of interest, be it the LDM or other topics. It seems likely, that if these discussions continue in the direction they were going, that "new" members will arrive and try to influence the direction of those conversations.

It is up to the Forum to determine if those continuing efforts will be successful or not.

Perhaps it would be best to return to the topics instead of the personalities.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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Watching From A Distance

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Walker,

"The Black Legion was the reason that Ed Piper had to leave the Superstitions once every year. The reason that he had to leave, was because the Apache were moving gold to a special location."

"Joe, your quote above does beg the question - Was Piper looking for the gold of the Black Legion? If so he only needed to sit off at a great high distance and watch where the Legion got the gold and/or where they took it. Or, he could have backtracked the trail after the fact."

You missed the rest of that story. In it I related that Piper was caught by two Apache while doing that very thing. He was in a high place and waiting for the show to start, when they "stumbled" on him.

I know where he was hiding, but can't provide that information for awhile.
If you find the trail that Joe Deering followed, you would be close. That's just an opinion, so don't go running to the bank. :lol:

I assume that was the last time Piper tried that stunt.

Did you say "he could have backtracked" the Apache? :?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Scott, Hound Dog and Zentull,

If you e-mail [email protected], he can e-mail you a map to the camp out.

Joe Ribaudo
bill711
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Black legion

Post by bill711 »

JOE; Yes I am well aware of the Pima history sticks-aztex rope knots history-and the apache ORAL history too! MY dad could sit and tell you who everyone in western Ark-Eastern okla. were kin to, he never met a stanger! BUT we are talking about info filtered thru aleast 3 mouths and the indian is a little windy as I have said before. I did not mention any names in my tirade but if they are quilty...bill 8)
WyattWestwood
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Post by WyattWestwood »

Deleted........
Kayitah
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many of those great warriors rest in obscurity...

Post by Kayitah »

Hello folks, I'm new here but I've been interested in Apache and Yavapai history and culture for years now.

I'm also collecting each and every photo of the 19th and early 20th century and now stand around 700 of the Apache and Yavapai...

Though, it's quite confusing as in Eve Ball's "Apache Voices", there is a picture of 'Fun', taken from the very prominent picture when Geronimo's group was photographed outside the coach just beside the railway tracks... (Fun is sitting in the front row, first from left, wearing a dark coat, dark headband and white pants). This same person can be seen in many other photgraphs made by C.S. Fly during the Geronimo Campaign. Though, there he's variously said to be Fun, Tsisnah(Isisnah, Cisna) and, on a drawing by Joyce Bailey, Kayitah (see 2nd pic).

[img]http://gallery.unl.edu/images/111-sc/111-sc-82320.jpg[/img]
[img]Naiche_and_Kaitah-1113436262[/img]

Also, the third warrior from the left on this photograph is also said to be 'Fun'...

[img]http://www.indianwars.org/images/AI/ggrp001.jpg[/img]


It's obvious that the person in the first two pictures isn't the same as the one in the third...[/img]
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