The Black Legion

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Roger
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The Apache Diaries

Post by Roger »

There are 50 used copies of "The Apache Diaries, A Father-Son Journey" at the below web site ranging from $5 to $75 if you are interested.

Roger
Lucas
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Re: Answers

Post by Lucas »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Lucas,

You are correct. Ace Daklugie was the son of Juh, and nephew of Geronimo. Daklugie was the primary source for Eve Ball who wrote "An Apaache Odyssey, Indeh". Ball spent over thirty years colllecting the oral history of the Apache at the Mescalero Reservation.

For your history of the Apache who hid out in the Sierra Madre after the surrender of Geronimo, pick up a copy of "The Apache Diaries, A Father-Son Journey" by, Grenville Goodwin & Neil Goodwin. I don't believe you could do better than that.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Thanks Joe.....I'm kicking myself right now. Many years ago while doing research I had come across reference to that book but never manged to find it and with those passing years forgot all about it's existense. Now that you have put it back in my consciousness I will try to locate it again. I appreciate it. Fascinating subject.

Also...Indeh was a good book.

.
Roger
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Book Site

Post by Roger »

Was a little fast my last post and didn't include the web site. Here is the web site for the book, "The Apache Diaries, A Father-Son Journey". Again, there are about 50 copies available.

Roger

http://www.addall.com/Used/
Joe Ribaudo
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Sources

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Lucas,

I agree that "Indeh" was good. Others on this forum have stated that they think her information may have been B.S., my words.

In Apache history, you will find that some information is accepted as true, while other information, from the same source is suspect or flat out false.

Eve Ball spent over thirty years gathering information from Apaches living on the Mescalero Reservation. That seems pertinent to finding the truth, or as close as you can get, without having been there.

You will find that asking for sources on this forum is considered bad form.
Those who have credible sources, like LDM, will provide them without reservation. Others will make statements of "fact" and become very offended when asked for their sources. This is expecially true, if there are good sources with opposing facts.

Before making any statements of "fact", you should make sure you have good sources. There are people on this forum, who know Apache history backwards and forwards.

I look forward to your input on the subject. Since this is my topic, I will not request that anyone stick to the Black Legion. I like the direction it is going just fine.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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1920

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter and LDM,

Leon Perico can be found in the 1920 Census. He is listed as "Head of House". Bi-ya-neta is also listed just below him as "Wife". Their home in 1920 is: "Mescalero Apache Indian Reservation, Otero, New Mexico. They are living in a home, which they "Own".

Along with the other written sources, it seems safe to say that Perico moved to Mescalero.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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Conclusion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

It seems obvious, at this point, that James and Sam Kaywakla were mistaken. At the least, Nachie and Perico moved to the Mescalero Reservation.

I can see, if it were true, how not letting some of the Apache leave Ft. Sill, would have created even more hard feelings. As far as I know, once Geronimo died, the idea of "freedom" became more palatable to the whites and it happened.

The problem here, as I see it, is that there are enough hard feelings to go around. There is no need to add fuel to the fire by changing bad history to worse. The Apache could have returned to Warm Springs, they chose not to. A good choice, but what about the "places" they were walking away from? It would seem that "Wisdom" found a new "Place".

If the Native Americans had killed all of the Spanish, all of the Europeans for that matter, what would their lives be like today? If we had not taken this land by force, someone else would have. Someone should write a novel using the premise that Russia ran us all out of this country, and the fate of the native population under them.

They have survived.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
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Post by TGH »

bye
Last edited by TGH on Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Erroneous?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Thank you for your reply.

I went a little beyond the books. The U.S. Census for 1920 seems to be pretty conclusive. The census takers would have been going house to house, taking down the names and relationships of the people he found living there......unless he was part of a vast conspiricy by the white-eyes to fool the world into thinking that Perico was living in the Mescalero Reservation, when he was actually living in........?

Now my book sources are Eve Ball, Angie Debo, Morris Opler and Grenville Goodwin. That's a pretty well respected group of historians.
I could dig a little farther into this matter, and probably will, to provide even more evidence.

On the other hand, we have Peter and his sources, namely... Peter.

"I am done with this matter."

What done? You have to start to be "done". The only thing of substance you have added to this thread, is that there is a big secret out there, that only Peter and select others know about. Big surprise, you have been doing that since you joined the forum.

If the information you have is so important, and so secret, why do you even hint at it? That only exposes it to the interest and research of those who are interested in Apache history.

At this date, why would it be relavant where Perico spent his last years?
If he was buried elswhere, who would care now? Now that I suspect he is buried "elswhere", I will use that information to dig him up this weekend. :roll:

The only thing in this thread that should remain a secret, is where the Apache warriors final resting places are. If that is your big secret, you have made them a little less secure. I would prefer to believe that Geronimo is buried at Fort Sill. Let's not burst anyone's bubble.

Perico and his wife are listed in the 1900 Federal Census as living in Fort Sill, OK. With them are two daughters and two sons. I assume you would take the word of that census taker.

I may be "in error" but I am in good company.

Your last post seems to have a little passion in it. Who would have thought that the "Black Legion" could arouse such interest? Especially from those who claim it does not exist. :lol:

Joe Ribaudo
LDM
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Post by LDM »

Deleted.
Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Goodbye
Last edited by TGH on Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Too Much Information

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

LDM,

You are right. I should have ignored Peter's last comment and let the subject die.

There is too much history here for us to have a normal conversation.

What got me going was not your quotes, but the books as poor sources, compared to what you and Peter were using comments. Not having spent decades on the reservations talking to the Apache who were close to the events, I am prone to take the word of people who did that very thing.

I meant no disrespect to you, but held those authors in great respect at the same time. They all paid their dues, at least in my mind.

As I said, it is not important if Perico, or any of the other warriors for that matter, lived in Mescalero or elsewhere. Who really cares?

What seemed important was the idea that the white man had done one more injustice to the red man. We have more than our share of things to answer for.

When the Apache were freed from Ft. Sill, they were freed. The warriors who were involved in the killing of innocents, as well as combatants, were placed on supervised parole. The whites who had done the same thing were, for the most part, "free as birds". Too late to hit the redo button now, it is past the time for that justice.

I was not trying to be right, well maybe a little, :) but trying to shore up the crumbling respect for people like Ball, Debo, Opler and Goodwin. Perhaps I tried too hard.

My Apologies, Sir.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
bill711
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Black legion

Post by bill711 »

Well, The way I see it ! You are all RIGHT to a certain extent AND You are also wrong to a certain extent. In the trading of info WHO really knows when to BREAK-IT OFF! I know of very few people that have that ability? I hope that we will all stay with the forum..We just hurt ourselves when we go silent... Bill 8)
Thomas Glover
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Contact:

Post by Thomas Glover »

LDM,

I am sorry to see you depart. Over the past many weeks I have only checked the Forum periodically. The disrespect and petty bickering had finally shut me down. However, it seemed that things were changing, but it was only an illusion. I had thought of rejoining the Forum when it looked to be turning around. I fully understand and appreciate your decision, and follow suit. Perhaps some day one will be able to return to an adult Forum, let's hope so.

Before going though, I would like to say a heartfelt thanks to yourself and the others who have contributed in a most professional manner, contributers such as S.C., Aurum, Novice and so many others. It is a wonderful mystery giving one treasures in and out of the mountains.

All the best to all,

Thomas
Last edited by Thomas Glover on Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RU Kidding
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Post by RU Kidding »

I can't take it anymore either. I no longer enjoy reading the posts here. I am tired of all the back and forth crap. It's just not worth it. Not that anybody will miss me,for I have contributed nothing but my interest in the LDM. So,goodbye,and best of luck-you'll need it!!
Randy in Phoenix
Wiz
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Re: Too Much Information

Post by Wiz »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:As I said, it is not important if Perico, or any of the other warriors for that matter, lived in Mescalero or elsewhere. Who really cares?
A lot of people care, Joe. You just don't get it. For someone who claims such an intimate knowledge of Indian culture, you just don't have a clue.

I hope you're happy now. You can't let anyone speak out without jumping them, can you? You have to have the last word, don't you? You can't discuss things, you have to lecture. You don't talk to people, you talk at them. You can't just be a contributor, you have to pass judgement on everyone else's posts.

Has it occurred to you that the only strife that occurs on this site is with you? Nobody has any issues with anyone else but you. Even Rochha and Wyatt, who actually have some history, cooled off and got back to business. YOU are the common factor in all the problems on this site. The open forum was returning to vibrant, active life until you decided to rejoin it. Now look at it.

Now, you've driven off two more people who actually know some things. I hope you and your books are happy together on this forum. It's sure as hell that nobody wants to talk to you anymore.

To hell with you for what you've done here.
Jan
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The "Joe"

Post by Jan »

Some things NEVER change!!! 8O
Joe Ribaudo
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Train Wreck!

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wow!,

It's hard to know where to start.

First of all, I have only posted on this topic, which I started. I did not intrude into anyone else's conversation. If you found my posts offensive, you only had to return to the other topics. You chose to stay here, and now you are whining that I have stepped on your feelings and ruined the entire forum. :roll:

LDM has stated that, "The key word here is 'respect' for others ideas and views." My statement to you was: "I am not sure what your source is for that information, but I believe it is in error". Your response was: "My sources are only James and Sam Kaywaykla.....Now Joe, you have to keep in mind, James was no Angie Debo, but according to his memory this is how he told it......Joe, I will let Sam Kaywaykla know he should pick up a copy of Angie Debo's book right away so he can correct the mistakes his grandfather made right away, thanks.

She-gan-tas-kineh Yosen."

I guess you just forgot the LOLs

You were correct that "The key word here is 'respect' for others ideas and views"

You showed respect for my "views" and "ideas" with those comments? That got my dander up a bit, so I looked a little farther for "facts". Bad Idea!

I showed you respect in every post I made to you but brought other "facts" into the discussion. Bad Idea!

Was I proving myself "right" or was I defending the authors who's research and books were being castigated? This was not a product of my work, but theirs. They were right and deserved to be defended. You along with Peter, and latecomer to the fray, Wiz, have all implied that the books I put a great deal of faith in, and the people who spent decades researching them, are less important than the sources that you have used.

Peter says my sources are still wrong about Perico. I offered more "facts". Bad Idea! In the process of his rebuttal, he respectfully offered this:

Conclusion?

Sadly, the only conclusion you are drawing is erroneoous.....but that is not your fault. You form conclusions based on what your books tell you....but they do not tell you the whole truth about this subject."

LDM,

You have taken the respect I showed you, and twisted it into an attack on me. As I have said before, I may be wrong, I may be too direct, I may stick to my guns if I believe I am right, but I am not ashamed to sign my name at the bottom of every post, and I don't stoop to using another identity to attack others.

In case you boys have not noticed, I have had conversations with a great number of people on this forum. We exchange a lot of information, without rancor when told we are mistaken. Perhaps you are just too sensitive for a give and take discussion with someone who will not let you change history.

There is an agenda at work here, but it is not mine. Once you leave, your agenda will leave with you. That's your decision, in both cases.

Peter,

"lol...ok I'll bite..."

Just for the record, I am not Lucas and I don't know who he is. At this point, I suspect he was a shill for the "agenda". That would be you.

Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Standing Up

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Thomas,

In the months of childish abuse, including outright lies, that was heaped on me, you along with LDM, never felt the need to stand up and be counted. Now the two of you, over what exactly, have decided you just can't take another moment of what.....too many facts?

Peter told me that people I counted as friends, were laughing about me behind my back. I counted both you and LDM as friends. LDM has said that I am the reason he is leaving the forum, and you have agreed he is correct. Perhaps the two of you are right. After all, Peter, Wiz, Jan, Redison, Ward, I Love Joe Ribaudo, the Joe Ribaudo Fan Club, Wyatt.......,kk,assayer, Ray Tucker and some I just can't remember have all agreed with you.

I will continue to question historical "facts" that are presented on this forum, until the management bars my participation. Wiz has said that I know nothing about the Apache. I know that in 1913 they were all given the choice of staying in Oklahoma or moving to the Mescalero Reservation.

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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Hatred

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz,

Does this mean you won't be coming to the camp out?

You might want to go back and read your last post. Everything you said about me was true about you, and is in your post.

Your hatred for me has spilled over into your personal life. I don't hate you, but do find you to be a bit ridiculous.

Not to worry, you can all get together over Sunday dinner, and nod and nod and nod. :lol:

Joe Ribaudo
bill711
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Black legion

Post by bill711 »

JOE; Go back an read the bottem 1/3 of ldm,s last post and think on it! NOW you should know better than to argue with the peter! YOU should never speak to --z under any circumstance either... Also do not be trying to count ALL the nookies hiding under ?,s skirt! all for now maybe this will help with your rehab? Bill 8) P.S. Mean while I will get out the axel grease and doctor some of the people,s rearend,s and maybe they will not be so mad at you.. :lol: P.S. agin; Read doc Thomas,s last spill an think about what he,s telling you!
Joe Ribaudo
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Thanks

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

Thanks for trying to do the right thing here. It is hopeless.

I fully understood LDMs and Dr. Glover's posts. I made some big mistakes here, thinking we could all exchange ideas and opposing opinions without cutting each other's throats.

This thing was manipulated from the first post, and while I suspected as much, it was always possible I was wrong.

Did you wonder why Lucas went silent once the conversation got going?

No one needs to leave the forum, I will go back to the moderated forum, and you guys can go back to the Jokes.

It really was going smooth before I came back. Nod, nod, nod........

Joe Ribaudo
Lucas
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Post by Lucas »

First off.....I am no one's alter ego. I'm just a guy who was researching some Apaches....ended up here and tried to add to the conversation for all the good it did. Right out of the gate all I really got was questioning why I didn't change a subject line when I quoted the post I thought I was providing an answer to.....the answer apparently not being as important or relevant I guess. Seemed a trivial thing but I didn't address it.....alot of boards have their hang-ups so I ignored it except to essentially say...oops. Kept coming back hoping to enjoy the conversation and then some old conflict erupts and I find I'm suspected of being some kind of shill or another member wearing a mask or something. Not my problem....I just wanted to talk about Apaches. Well...the way I see it...it's your war folks..not mine...but don't use me as a weapon or a cop-out. Kinda feels like there is probably no point in staying here as it would seem there isn't going to be the conversation I'd hoped for....but I guess I'm stupid enought to live in hope of it still....once the shooting stops....if it does.

BTW, I've been here every day since my first post (except the weekend...no internet at home anymore) but haven't posted every time.

.
redison
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Re: Thanks

Post by redison »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:
No one needs to leave the forum, I will go back to the moderated forum

Joe Ribaudo

Is this yet another Last "Last Post" in this unmoderated forum?

There's NEVER has and never will be a last word from joe. 8)

redison
Last edited by redison on Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Assayer »

All,

I too was lumped into Joes list of "enemies". I am not quite sure why as I have only posted once asking what the heck was going on with the forum in general and Joe Ribaudo in particular. I guess whoever does not agree with him is labeled "an enemy of Joe."

I still don't know why this person is allowed to destroy the entire site by himself. There was indeed some good threads going back and forth before
he butted in with his haughty "I'm right and you're not" ways. I just do not understand it. Particuarly since the Feldmans gave him his very own forum, and then after he whined enough about how he was trying to "save" the site and the forums from all the bad guys out there , they built another forum to protect him from "enemies of Joe". He had, in effect, TWO forums to himself from which he attacked members on the one hand and tried to get meaningful threads going on the other. He seems to have failed on both counts.

The Feldmans bent over backwards to accomodate his childish, silly antics, but he had to come back and destroy the only forum on this site that offered good give and take information about the Lost Dutchman and other aspects of Superstition Mountain history. Like a spoiled child, it seems the more Joe is accomodated, the more he will stamp his feet and whine.

Anyone who converses with this person in the future is making a mockery of what the forums used to be. What he did to some members here was shameful. The only person who does not know and understand that is Joe Ribaudo.

Assayer
dutch elm disease
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Post by dutch elm disease »

i believe this present thread has been orchestrated,tis a pity cos it was in danger of becoming interesting before the aggro began. i also believe its unfair to blame 1 member alone for the "troubles".this next comment isnt a "dig" at anyone, but a member has stated that everyone else gets along fine...and its only when a "certain member" is involved that all this crap starts............thats quite plainly untrue...anyone can read back thro the archives and see that various "members "have been targeted in the past by people trying to appear clever and informed.the fair minded reader will easily see thro all the nonsense that these indignant,outraged,"resignations" consist of. the main problem here i feel is that too many people on here take themselves and the subject matter far too seriously.im not siding with nobody no more,ive seen wat it brings..theres very little integrity on here and common sense seems conspicious by its very abscence. dont bother replying anyone ,your bullshit will fall on deaf ears and as ive always looked at this site ,or rather the subject of this site "tongue in cheek" any reply would be ultimately pointless anyway.
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