Ron,
All that you say is of course true.
You explaine your focus on the east end of the range, by pointing out the existing mines of Superior and Globe. Do you consider them closer to the Superstitions then any mine on the west end of the range? My uncle always said their was a mineral belt, running from the northwest to the southeast with the Superstitions jutting up, right in the middle and a decided lack of those minerals showing within the range. I always took him at his word for that, although I seem to remember him showing me the belt of mines on a map. This was over thirty years ago, so I could be wrong. I may have to look at my own maps, or perhaps you already know. You obviously have proven your conclusions by receiving a very difficult permit to obtain. I think you already know if this is or is not the Lost Dutchman Mine. In either case, I am sure you will derive more satisfaction from your find then the Dutchman ever did from his. In this, I could not be wrong.
Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
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Joe Ribaudo
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Dutchman gold/massacregrounds
Joe,
Joe,
I consider the mines in Superior and Globe having the same geology and mineralization as the extreme eastern end of the Superstitons. Your uncle is right as there is a fault which does run nortwest to southeast and runs through the Superstitions. It also cuts through Jerome , Az. This fault is a subject that I will include in my next book , that I'm presently working on.
Joe,
I consider the mines in Superior and Globe having the same geology and mineralization as the extreme eastern end of the Superstitons. Your uncle is right as there is a fault which does run nortwest to southeast and runs through the Superstitions. It also cuts through Jerome , Az. This fault is a subject that I will include in my next book , that I'm presently working on.
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Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
LDM,
Thanks for your assessment on the geology contained in the Superstitions.
I must admit, Uncle Chuck told me pretty much the same thing around thirty years ago. I never questioned his information, because he was right so much of the time. Some artifacts found in the mountains, strongly suggest mines were located and worked within the range. I have no problem accepting on faith, that something of great value is hidden in the Supes. I make one trip a year, and am satisfied with what I have found. Each year we see views seen by very few people. Each night we sit surrounded by ghosts at our campfire. I have found large monuments, in high, rough country, so far out of the normal path of man that it makes you question the motives of their builders. So I return each year trying to find the answer. If you never leave your saddle, you will never experiance those special moments. When we get there, we always wonder how we ever managed it.
Thanks for your assessment on the geology contained in the Superstitions.
I must admit, Uncle Chuck told me pretty much the same thing around thirty years ago. I never questioned his information, because he was right so much of the time. Some artifacts found in the mountains, strongly suggest mines were located and worked within the range. I have no problem accepting on faith, that something of great value is hidden in the Supes. I make one trip a year, and am satisfied with what I have found. Each year we see views seen by very few people. Each night we sit surrounded by ghosts at our campfire. I have found large monuments, in high, rough country, so far out of the normal path of man that it makes you question the motives of their builders. So I return each year trying to find the answer. If you never leave your saddle, you will never experiance those special moments. When we get there, we always wonder how we ever managed it.
Dutchman gold/massacre grounds
LDM,
I agree with most of your assessments,but did you mean the Goldfields to the west and Randolph District to the east. Also one must realize that the prodominent quartz in the Goldfields is epithermal, so there was different geology going on there . It is true that precambrian granites were layed down about 3300 million years ago , and it is in this formation that one finds quartz and the minerals associated with quartz found. The Superstition Mountains were a flat landscape in the early Tertiary Period. The mountains that were formed to produce what we essentially see now were formed about 20-30 million years ago. Of course there is different opinions among geologists today, with John Wilburn stating the caldera theory is not valid and the mountains were uplifted about 18 million years ago. There probaly is granite and the underlying quartz throughout the Superstitions, it may all have mesothermal quartz, but all I go by in that respect is verifiable evidence, and on the west end I have yet to see that quartz. Sure, as I said it is probaly present , but at great depths of 500-1000 feet below the existing Cenozoic deposits. It will take way more time for anyone of us to see enough erosion , uplift , etc. to expose these rocks from the Precambrian and Mesozoic times on the west side.
I remember years ago , when I asked Dr. Miichael Sheridan that question , if he thought the Dutchman Mine or a rich deposit could of been exposed by erosion on the west side dacite rocks, and he said no. That the necessary granites were just to deep.
I agree with most of your assessments,but did you mean the Goldfields to the west and Randolph District to the east. Also one must realize that the prodominent quartz in the Goldfields is epithermal, so there was different geology going on there . It is true that precambrian granites were layed down about 3300 million years ago , and it is in this formation that one finds quartz and the minerals associated with quartz found. The Superstition Mountains were a flat landscape in the early Tertiary Period. The mountains that were formed to produce what we essentially see now were formed about 20-30 million years ago. Of course there is different opinions among geologists today, with John Wilburn stating the caldera theory is not valid and the mountains were uplifted about 18 million years ago. There probaly is granite and the underlying quartz throughout the Superstitions, it may all have mesothermal quartz, but all I go by in that respect is verifiable evidence, and on the west end I have yet to see that quartz. Sure, as I said it is probaly present , but at great depths of 500-1000 feet below the existing Cenozoic deposits. It will take way more time for anyone of us to see enough erosion , uplift , etc. to expose these rocks from the Precambrian and Mesozoic times on the west side.
I remember years ago , when I asked Dr. Miichael Sheridan that question , if he thought the Dutchman Mine or a rich deposit could of been exposed by erosion on the west side dacite rocks, and he said no. That the necessary granites were just to deep.
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Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
I will show my ignorance once more. Are you discounting the possibility of an intrusion, chimney or vent bringing up ore in isolated situations? Since the mine of the Dutchman was described as a chimney and not in a place you would expect to find mineralization, I would expect to find it in a very unusual location. I belong to a prospecting club here in Lake Havasu.
We have property north of Crossman Peak. There are gold mines on the mountain. We are down in the desert. Millions of years ago the ground on the north face of Crossman liquified and flowed down into the desert.
We find isolated gold nuggets everywhere. No rhyme or reason to the location of each find. A year ago, one of the members from back east, found a 1.9 pound nugget. You would not find another piece of gold anywhere near it, except by pure luck. They are usually found six inches or so below the surface. You find them by chance, not design or knowledge.
Ron, in answer to your question about the tests on mercury vapors, one of the places of high mercury vapor readings in the Superstition area, was the northwest and western edge of the range, as I remember it. With my memory, of course, I could be wrong.
We have property north of Crossman Peak. There are gold mines on the mountain. We are down in the desert. Millions of years ago the ground on the north face of Crossman liquified and flowed down into the desert.
We find isolated gold nuggets everywhere. No rhyme or reason to the location of each find. A year ago, one of the members from back east, found a 1.9 pound nugget. You would not find another piece of gold anywhere near it, except by pure luck. They are usually found six inches or so below the surface. You find them by chance, not design or knowledge.
Ron, in answer to your question about the tests on mercury vapors, one of the places of high mercury vapor readings in the Superstition area, was the northwest and western edge of the range, as I remember it. With my memory, of course, I could be wrong.
While I am not a geologist, my understanding of the formation of the LDM
is that there is a high probability that it is precisely what Joe R described:
a chimney deposit/volcanic intrusion, probably somewhere near the fault line that stretches through the mountains.
Does this preclude it being located in the eastern part of the range? Of course not. Still the possibilty that it may well be located in the area where many of the legends place it (the western part ) can not be summarily dismissed...just because most the area is devoid of surface mineralization.
As to the mercury vapor testing some of the readings were tantalizingly
high when taken from the Labarge area. Whether this means anything, or whether the test was in error..who can say.
Gold is where you find it. And if and when the LDM is ever found, I beleive
we (well most of us..at least) will be surprised that it was under our very noses the whole time..close by, but so very far away.
is that there is a high probability that it is precisely what Joe R described:
a chimney deposit/volcanic intrusion, probably somewhere near the fault line that stretches through the mountains.
Does this preclude it being located in the eastern part of the range? Of course not. Still the possibilty that it may well be located in the area where many of the legends place it (the western part ) can not be summarily dismissed...just because most the area is devoid of surface mineralization.
As to the mercury vapor testing some of the readings were tantalizingly
high when taken from the Labarge area. Whether this means anything, or whether the test was in error..who can say.
Gold is where you find it. And if and when the LDM is ever found, I beleive
we (well most of us..at least) will be surprised that it was under our very noses the whole time..close by, but so very far away.
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Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
Peter,
Your conclusion that you can't exclude the eastern portion of the range for the location of the LDM is right on target. In my less then qualified opinion, no area should be left out, for any reason. If the LDM could be found by using the science of geology, this forum would not exist. Storm was a pretty fair geologist and one of the first qualified searchers on the ground. Many educated people have followed his tracks, and a lot more uneducated folks, who could at least recognize Manganese when they held it in there hand. Obviously I am not one of those people. Perhaps a lack of knowledge concerning geology might not be a bad thing in our search.
I must admit I am taking the simplest approach in my own search. In truth, I do not accept many of the most popular stories as factual. That is not to say that I completly discount them, only that I do not base my entire search on their complete truthfulness. I think a little truth may be found in many of the stories, and a lot of fiction. Where those little truths start coming together, you may find your answer. Of course, as usual, I could be wrong.
Your conclusion that you can't exclude the eastern portion of the range for the location of the LDM is right on target. In my less then qualified opinion, no area should be left out, for any reason. If the LDM could be found by using the science of geology, this forum would not exist. Storm was a pretty fair geologist and one of the first qualified searchers on the ground. Many educated people have followed his tracks, and a lot more uneducated folks, who could at least recognize Manganese when they held it in there hand. Obviously I am not one of those people. Perhaps a lack of knowledge concerning geology might not be a bad thing in our search.
I must admit I am taking the simplest approach in my own search. In truth, I do not accept many of the most popular stories as factual. That is not to say that I completly discount them, only that I do not base my entire search on their complete truthfulness. I think a little truth may be found in many of the stories, and a lot of fiction. Where those little truths start coming together, you may find your answer. Of course, as usual, I could be wrong.
Hi Joe
I think a problem some people have come across when deciding upon an area to search is that they give up on an area too soon...whether because their own search has not proven fruitful or that the area has supposedly been "searched out" by those who have gone before...as if
someone 50 years ago had all the answers.
Folks need to remember exactly what they are looking for: two filled in shafts (probably no more than 4x4 if that in their hayday) and a walled up tunnel below...all of which was probably covered over by experts. Add to this mother nature and the difficulty of the terrain and is it any wonder that
the LDM has remained hidden from view for the past 115 years?
I think a problem some people have come across when deciding upon an area to search is that they give up on an area too soon...whether because their own search has not proven fruitful or that the area has supposedly been "searched out" by those who have gone before...as if
someone 50 years ago had all the answers.
Folks need to remember exactly what they are looking for: two filled in shafts (probably no more than 4x4 if that in their hayday) and a walled up tunnel below...all of which was probably covered over by experts. Add to this mother nature and the difficulty of the terrain and is it any wonder that
the LDM has remained hidden from view for the past 115 years?
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Ron,
Two thing keeps bothering me, concerning the lack of any rich ore deposit's existing in the western portion of the Superstitions. First, I only know of two published finds of gold float ore east of Bluff Spring Mountain. With your time in the mountains I am sure you can give us a better tally then that. There are more then ten published accounts, I can remember, located west of Bluff Spring Mountain. Once again, you can probably add to that number.
The other thing that I can't seem to shake loose of, is the arrastra found in Boulder Basin and removed in the early 1930s. Also, I am not a big Brownie Holmes fan, but as you know, he also claimed to have seen one in the same general area in the 1940-1945 era. It does not seem likely that in the 1800s, they would haul ore needing to be crushed, far from their mines. Consider hauling the ore from your area of interest, by mule, all the way to Boulder Basin. My guess is you would build an arrastra within a few hundred feet of your claim. My memory on these items may be a little fuzzy, but I am sure the members will correct any errors made due to poor memory and approaching dementia. I could, of course be completly wrong. :
Two thing keeps bothering me, concerning the lack of any rich ore deposit's existing in the western portion of the Superstitions. First, I only know of two published finds of gold float ore east of Bluff Spring Mountain. With your time in the mountains I am sure you can give us a better tally then that. There are more then ten published accounts, I can remember, located west of Bluff Spring Mountain. Once again, you can probably add to that number.
The other thing that I can't seem to shake loose of, is the arrastra found in Boulder Basin and removed in the early 1930s. Also, I am not a big Brownie Holmes fan, but as you know, he also claimed to have seen one in the same general area in the 1940-1945 era. It does not seem likely that in the 1800s, they would haul ore needing to be crushed, far from their mines. Consider hauling the ore from your area of interest, by mule, all the way to Boulder Basin. My guess is you would build an arrastra within a few hundred feet of your claim. My memory on these items may be a little fuzzy, but I am sure the members will correct any errors made due to poor memory and approaching dementia. I could, of course be completly wrong. :
Dutchmangold/massacregrounds
Joe,
Let me go on record as saying , of course anything is possible, and that is why we're all looking for the mine in different locations. I never want to throw anyone off course on their vernture. Certainly there are as I said other possibilities. I only speak for what I know, have seen, and have found, and maybe with the right information , may find something.
As far as Storm being a good geologist, and depending on anything he said , one must remember , he was a promoter, above all else , that had said many conflicting things and untruths. There also maybe many accounts of float west of Bluff Springs, but realize I have never seen proof of such, and in addition, float is meaningless. With float , it is a wild card. I know of the arrastras you speak of, if I get where you said , I haven't seen them though .It would be true , that no one would haul anything that far , but were they actually arrastras? So much has been said and so little has been documented, and that is Dutchman hunting.
Let me go on record as saying , of course anything is possible, and that is why we're all looking for the mine in different locations. I never want to throw anyone off course on their vernture. Certainly there are as I said other possibilities. I only speak for what I know, have seen, and have found, and maybe with the right information , may find something.
As far as Storm being a good geologist, and depending on anything he said , one must remember , he was a promoter, above all else , that had said many conflicting things and untruths. There also maybe many accounts of float west of Bluff Springs, but realize I have never seen proof of such, and in addition, float is meaningless. With float , it is a wild card. I know of the arrastras you speak of, if I get where you said , I haven't seen them though .It would be true , that no one would haul anything that far , but were they actually arrastras? So much has been said and so little has been documented, and that is Dutchman hunting.
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Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
Ron,
Actually I said Storm was a pretty fair geologist, which would be less then good. I could be wrong about that, but I seem to remember reading that he had some formal training in the field. I personally have no illusions as to Storms character. How good Storm, or anyone else is at reading rocks, misses my point. I don't believe the best geologist in the world could find the LDM. As for the arrastras, the drag rock hauled out of the junction of East and West Boulder Canyon by Tex Barkley also had a sweep pole found with it. If Tex would haul Ruths body to Black Top to keep Dutch Hunters out of the area, why would he then entice them into the mountains with such an important find. As for float, I think we all would give great credence to any float found in our particular area of interest, wether we have seen it or not. There is good evidence from the era of the Dutchman, which precludes the LDM from being east of Bluff Spring Mt. However, what I might consider the BEST evedince from the time of Waltz, himself, others might discount completly. Sooooo... I could be wrong.
Actually I said Storm was a pretty fair geologist, which would be less then good. I could be wrong about that, but I seem to remember reading that he had some formal training in the field. I personally have no illusions as to Storms character. How good Storm, or anyone else is at reading rocks, misses my point. I don't believe the best geologist in the world could find the LDM. As for the arrastras, the drag rock hauled out of the junction of East and West Boulder Canyon by Tex Barkley also had a sweep pole found with it. If Tex would haul Ruths body to Black Top to keep Dutch Hunters out of the area, why would he then entice them into the mountains with such an important find. As for float, I think we all would give great credence to any float found in our particular area of interest, wether we have seen it or not. There is good evidence from the era of the Dutchman, which precludes the LDM from being east of Bluff Spring Mt. However, what I might consider the BEST evedince from the time of Waltz, himself, others might discount completly. Sooooo... I could be wrong.
Helen Corbin in her new book, The Bible on the LDM and Jacob Waltz, prints the Williams Edwards Diary which in brief tells the folling story:
Edwards backtracks the Mexican-Apache battle from the Massacre Grounds to their camp at Marsh Valley. He then follows one of their trails from there down canyon (LaBarge) to a stone lined well on the East side, then up a steep and box like canyon above the well to their mining site where the arrastra was located. From there he
followed a path into a North-South running canyon that sounds like Pistol Canyon where he finds the gangue from the mine dumped into a fault seam that runs the length of the canyon. Edwards tried to dig for the mine but never found anything and the Indians ran him out of the mountains.
The Mexicans may have done the same to other mines in the area and their hauling the ore to the arrastras plus their final attempt to escape could have scatter bits of ore across the Supers in several areas.
I strongly suspect that that the Mexican pit mine that Edwards was looking for was up on the flat in the same fault line that he found in Pistol canyon. This would be one of the two mines the Apaches covered up after the big battle - the other one being the one
Kenworthy documents in his book on Bluff Springs Mtn. Someone could have probably done well to have mined out the gangue thrown into the fault as it probably contained a lot of gold still. I don't think this mine was the Dutchman as the Indians had indicated that there was a mine they didn't cover up due its being so high up and well hidden that no one would find it.
Roger
Edwards backtracks the Mexican-Apache battle from the Massacre Grounds to their camp at Marsh Valley. He then follows one of their trails from there down canyon (LaBarge) to a stone lined well on the East side, then up a steep and box like canyon above the well to their mining site where the arrastra was located. From there he
followed a path into a North-South running canyon that sounds like Pistol Canyon where he finds the gangue from the mine dumped into a fault seam that runs the length of the canyon. Edwards tried to dig for the mine but never found anything and the Indians ran him out of the mountains.
The Mexicans may have done the same to other mines in the area and their hauling the ore to the arrastras plus their final attempt to escape could have scatter bits of ore across the Supers in several areas.
I strongly suspect that that the Mexican pit mine that Edwards was looking for was up on the flat in the same fault line that he found in Pistol canyon. This would be one of the two mines the Apaches covered up after the big battle - the other one being the one
Kenworthy documents in his book on Bluff Springs Mtn. Someone could have probably done well to have mined out the gangue thrown into the fault as it probably contained a lot of gold still. I don't think this mine was the Dutchman as the Indians had indicated that there was a mine they didn't cover up due its being so high up and well hidden that no one would find it.
Roger
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Hi Roger,
You are quoting a book I have not read yet. I had never read of the Edwards family until Glover brought them into the ever expanding Lost Dutchman legend. How did Glover, who had the information first, fail to mention the Marsh Valley camp, as the end of the battle trail from the Massacre Grounds? Most people might say there were a number of Mexican camps to choose from. Actually, Glover states that eventually Edwards found a small work camp on the northwest slopes of Bluff Springs Mountains and an exposed manganese deposit, but no gold.
"However, there was a trail from the camp which led Edwards to what is today White Rock Spring and Marsh Valley where he found what he was looking for, the remains of a large base camp, including a rock lined well".
No mention from Glover concerning an arrastra or a mining site. You might want to revisit Glover, page 71 thru 75 to compare their stories. Since you state that Corbin prints the William Edwards Diary, directly, are we to assume she has the correct story? Where did she get the diary? Has she or her husband ever mentioned the Edwards family in previous books? If not, why not? This all seems like, if true, very important information to any Dutch Hunter. Any authentication on this diary by some one other then the authors involved? This information has only been in print since 1998 and already we have two authors quoting it as fact, and misquoting each other to boot. At this rate, the Edwards will find and loose the LDM in the next few books. We would all like to have some new evidence concerning this mine. After all, the old stuff gets us nowhere. I think it's just possible that all the new evidence that has come to light over the years since Waltzs death, have hidden this mine better then ever. This is why I always come back to this question, what is the best evidence available for this mystery? The members of this forum might just consider it to be new information from Glover or Corbin. Perhaps it is old information in these new books. In tracking a faint trail, you often need to return to the last clear track, no matter how far.
You are quoting a book I have not read yet. I had never read of the Edwards family until Glover brought them into the ever expanding Lost Dutchman legend. How did Glover, who had the information first, fail to mention the Marsh Valley camp, as the end of the battle trail from the Massacre Grounds? Most people might say there were a number of Mexican camps to choose from. Actually, Glover states that eventually Edwards found a small work camp on the northwest slopes of Bluff Springs Mountains and an exposed manganese deposit, but no gold.
"However, there was a trail from the camp which led Edwards to what is today White Rock Spring and Marsh Valley where he found what he was looking for, the remains of a large base camp, including a rock lined well".
No mention from Glover concerning an arrastra or a mining site. You might want to revisit Glover, page 71 thru 75 to compare their stories. Since you state that Corbin prints the William Edwards Diary, directly, are we to assume she has the correct story? Where did she get the diary? Has she or her husband ever mentioned the Edwards family in previous books? If not, why not? This all seems like, if true, very important information to any Dutch Hunter. Any authentication on this diary by some one other then the authors involved? This information has only been in print since 1998 and already we have two authors quoting it as fact, and misquoting each other to boot. At this rate, the Edwards will find and loose the LDM in the next few books. We would all like to have some new evidence concerning this mine. After all, the old stuff gets us nowhere. I think it's just possible that all the new evidence that has come to light over the years since Waltzs death, have hidden this mine better then ever. This is why I always come back to this question, what is the best evidence available for this mystery? The members of this forum might just consider it to be new information from Glover or Corbin. Perhaps it is old information in these new books. In tracking a faint trail, you often need to return to the last clear track, no matter how far.
The Peralta Battle Began Where
Bear with me as I restate something I posted earlier on this subject of where the Peralta battle started and where it ended. The Wm Edwards diary was handed down throught several geneerations and Helen Corbin came into possession of it and it is probably rather new published info in the Dutch circles. You can purchase that book form the Superstition Mtn Historical Society for $25 by calling 4870-474-9410. The Edwards description of backtracking the Mexican battle from skeletons leads back in the direction that other documentation says the battle started as noted in the following points:
1. In the "Story of The Lost Dutchman" manuscript by Brownie Holmes (1944) and sold at the SMHS Museum Brownie tells on page 41 about a Mr. Spears experience in the Supers:
"Mr. Spears questioned the young Indian about the gold in the mountains. Finally the young Indian told him there was a place in the mountains east of Phoenix where a white man had gotten gold and agreed to take him there, which event took place after the Rossevelt road was built. Mr. Spears took a buck board with supplies and hay for their team and drove about eight miles east to Tortilla Spring and from there Northwest over a dim trail and at noon stopped in the shade an overhand and ate their lunch of sardines and bread. The Indain took Spears to the head of a steep canyon and told him to go down the canyon and hunt. But refused to go with him. Mr. Spears being a very heavy man siad he was afraid to go down for fear that he might not be able to get back. Learning of this I made several trips to Indain Springs trying to locate the canyon. I was unable to locate it but I did find two old rusted sardine cans in the shade of a small cliff. which I believe to be the same cans that Spears had used there many years before. The Indian also told Spears that the early Spaniards had loaded their animals at Indian Springs, to return to Mexico. which was where the afore-mentioned fight had started."
2. In the Bark Notes published by Robert Probert (Phoenix Main Library) on page 62, Bark tells the story of Apache Jack and George Scholey:
"One day, Jack saw an Apache smoke signal for help, and another smoke signal to hurry and to get his warriors together immediatedly, and away they went. When they got to where the signals had been sent up, they found an Apache warrior who told them that there was a big fight going on about a mile to the west and that the Papagoes (mistaken Spaniards) were trying to break through and get out on the desert where they could get away; that the Apaches were trying to prevent them by trying to corral them against the bluff of Superstition Mountains; that they had been fighting them for two days, and they came from some distance back.
George asked Jack how many there were, and he said he did not know, but there were lots of them and quite a number had been killed further back.
He asked how many horses and mules they had, and Jack replied that there were more than three hundred saddle horses for the men to ride. The rest were packed with some ollas and blankets, but most of the packs were stones.
He told George that, "back that way", (pointing in the direction we feel sure the mine is located)" a long time before we killed thirty-four Mexicans".
COMMENTS/CONCLUSIONS:
1. For the Spaniards to have that many horses and mules loaded with gold ore for transport, they must have had sufficient time to load this caravan prior to the Indians attacking. This meshes with other stories that the Spaniards were preparing to depart the mountains and the Apaches decided to attack before they could leave the Supers which would provide them advantage.
2. The Peralta battle began at Indan Springs which correlates with evidence that there was a sizeable Spanish camp at that location. With the fight starting there, it explains why Kochera's gold would have been left on Peters Mesa in a pair of saddle bags discarded by the Indians from a captured mule as the battle raged along the trail from Indian Springs, up over Peters Mesa, past Charlebois Spring and First Water to the North side of the Superstition Mountain. Other bits of gold ore have been found along this trail route, I believe. This is the trail that Edwards backtracked to Marsh Valley and up on Black Mtn/Peters Mesa.
3. There were more Spanish camped at Marsh Valley that joined in the retreat with the group from Indian Springs. Ala Edwards' findings.
All of this raises an interesting question - If the Spanish were loading their gold laden ore at Indian Springs, does this not provide some insight as to the location of the LDM????
Roger
1. In the "Story of The Lost Dutchman" manuscript by Brownie Holmes (1944) and sold at the SMHS Museum Brownie tells on page 41 about a Mr. Spears experience in the Supers:
"Mr. Spears questioned the young Indian about the gold in the mountains. Finally the young Indian told him there was a place in the mountains east of Phoenix where a white man had gotten gold and agreed to take him there, which event took place after the Rossevelt road was built. Mr. Spears took a buck board with supplies and hay for their team and drove about eight miles east to Tortilla Spring and from there Northwest over a dim trail and at noon stopped in the shade an overhand and ate their lunch of sardines and bread. The Indain took Spears to the head of a steep canyon and told him to go down the canyon and hunt. But refused to go with him. Mr. Spears being a very heavy man siad he was afraid to go down for fear that he might not be able to get back. Learning of this I made several trips to Indain Springs trying to locate the canyon. I was unable to locate it but I did find two old rusted sardine cans in the shade of a small cliff. which I believe to be the same cans that Spears had used there many years before. The Indian also told Spears that the early Spaniards had loaded their animals at Indian Springs, to return to Mexico. which was where the afore-mentioned fight had started."
2. In the Bark Notes published by Robert Probert (Phoenix Main Library) on page 62, Bark tells the story of Apache Jack and George Scholey:
"One day, Jack saw an Apache smoke signal for help, and another smoke signal to hurry and to get his warriors together immediatedly, and away they went. When they got to where the signals had been sent up, they found an Apache warrior who told them that there was a big fight going on about a mile to the west and that the Papagoes (mistaken Spaniards) were trying to break through and get out on the desert where they could get away; that the Apaches were trying to prevent them by trying to corral them against the bluff of Superstition Mountains; that they had been fighting them for two days, and they came from some distance back.
George asked Jack how many there were, and he said he did not know, but there were lots of them and quite a number had been killed further back.
He asked how many horses and mules they had, and Jack replied that there were more than three hundred saddle horses for the men to ride. The rest were packed with some ollas and blankets, but most of the packs were stones.
He told George that, "back that way", (pointing in the direction we feel sure the mine is located)" a long time before we killed thirty-four Mexicans".
COMMENTS/CONCLUSIONS:
1. For the Spaniards to have that many horses and mules loaded with gold ore for transport, they must have had sufficient time to load this caravan prior to the Indians attacking. This meshes with other stories that the Spaniards were preparing to depart the mountains and the Apaches decided to attack before they could leave the Supers which would provide them advantage.
2. The Peralta battle began at Indan Springs which correlates with evidence that there was a sizeable Spanish camp at that location. With the fight starting there, it explains why Kochera's gold would have been left on Peters Mesa in a pair of saddle bags discarded by the Indians from a captured mule as the battle raged along the trail from Indian Springs, up over Peters Mesa, past Charlebois Spring and First Water to the North side of the Superstition Mountain. Other bits of gold ore have been found along this trail route, I believe. This is the trail that Edwards backtracked to Marsh Valley and up on Black Mtn/Peters Mesa.
3. There were more Spanish camped at Marsh Valley that joined in the retreat with the group from Indian Springs. Ala Edwards' findings.
All of this raises an interesting question - If the Spanish were loading their gold laden ore at Indian Springs, does this not provide some insight as to the location of the LDM????
Roger
Reply
Well said Aurum... "The journals were written as historical accounts of their personal experiences and were never intended as books on the Lost Dutchman mine. In fact, they were never intended for print or any use other than historical references for their own families...."
There have been comments back and forth about some of these pioneer documentation items Aurum mentions. Why did Glover do this and not do that?.... And why did Mrs. Corbin "reveal" this thing and that thing?... The bottom line is Aurum did more to explain the pioneer diaries than Mrs. Corbin did in her new book. Unfortunately, these were included in the book without the proper background and set-up. Therefore we have the discussion we have seen here on this forum about why one person discussed this and another did not when it was "obviously significant"...
There have been comments back and forth about some of these pioneer documentation items Aurum mentions. Why did Glover do this and not do that?.... And why did Mrs. Corbin "reveal" this thing and that thing?... The bottom line is Aurum did more to explain the pioneer diaries than Mrs. Corbin did in her new book. Unfortunately, these were included in the book without the proper background and set-up. Therefore we have the discussion we have seen here on this forum about why one person discussed this and another did not when it was "obviously significant"...
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Joe Ribaudo
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Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
As I look back to where this particular subject started and how it evolved to where it is now, one thing stands out as patently obvious. I felt that redundancy was called for here. There are a few individuals in this forum with the inside knowledge, skill and natural instincts, that if they were combined in joint effort, would bring this search to a conclusion. Human nature being what it is, I doubt seeing that happen anytime soon. We all believe we have the correct answer. Secrets are difficult to keep. As a fellow Italian once said, "If three people know a secret, it is safe - if two of them are dead". In my own conclusions, the massacre site has a high priority in locating the LDM. If the Edward's story is true it suits me just fine. If it's false, that's fine also.
I assumed that the answer as to what Glover and Corbin included in their books (and what they left out) is that they only got permission from the manuscript's owner to put certain excerpts in print. It would appear that the owner of the Edwards manuscript has loosened his restrictions on what he allowed to be put in print between the time that Glover put out his book, and Corbin's recent work.
While we're on the subject, does anyone have a comment on the map shown in Corbin's recent book on page 170? The topo map shows the Peters Mesa area with about 30 dots drawn on it. Plus a line going from 4 peaks to Weavers Needles which intersects the north end of the hill on Peters Mesa. There is no explanation of the map that I saw. I was wondering if it didn't have some link to the later list on pg 287 - 289 where they list some of the things found over the years on Peters Mesa. This list refers to different site numbers, going as high as #27.
So are these related? Or do I need to re-read the book because I missed something?
While we're on the subject, does anyone have a comment on the map shown in Corbin's recent book on page 170? The topo map shows the Peters Mesa area with about 30 dots drawn on it. Plus a line going from 4 peaks to Weavers Needles which intersects the north end of the hill on Peters Mesa. There is no explanation of the map that I saw. I was wondering if it didn't have some link to the later list on pg 287 - 289 where they list some of the things found over the years on Peters Mesa. This list refers to different site numbers, going as high as #27.
So are these related? Or do I need to re-read the book because I missed something?
Reply
Maybe you're right senor x... maybe the dots equate to something - but I think Mrs. Corbin did not include what they were. It appears many things in her book were not presented as well as they should have been. I think that is the weakness of the book. Some things might be signifcant - but the arguements behind them are not presented. I think she tried to do too much in one book. She obviously started with her older book as a staring point and "added" stuff to it - like maps and diaries and some pictures here and there. Most of which were a Xerox, cut, and paste job. She might have made a stronger case for some things - had there been better written arguments behind them.
All I know is the "line" referred to is more "symbolic" than directionally correct.
All I know is the "line" referred to is more "symbolic" than directionally correct.
I'd like to make a couple of comments here as I have some small knowledge on several of the posts/comments in this thread.
1) Roger, you have made several good comments as to the Indian Springs
location and finding ore in various locations next to a trail between Indian Springs and Marsh valley. To my mind the logical conclusion you have drawn...that the Indian Spring area might be of interest... is well founded. This doesnt mean the LDM is located nearby, but it does mean that the area is well...."interesting"....lol.
2) Aurum and SC. Well said. You touch on some sensitive subject matters
and do so in an even-handed fashion. There is much more to this subject that meets the eye.
3) Joe, your analysis of the Massacre Site location is important, though probably not for the reason you speculate about (ie: that Waltz found the ore there).
4) Senor X, I do not beleive the map on page 170 of Corbin's book has anything to do with the list of supposed artifacts on pages 287-289.
Before you folks all quit your dayjobs and go running out to look for the LDM somewhere in the High Country east of Labarge there are some things you should understand about Corbins latest work:
a) The book was poorly researched and shoddily patched together.
b) Some of the source materials are interesting, yes. But the commentary by the author and conclusions she reaches on some of the material is so far-fetched and silly that it casts a dubious light on the rest of the work.
c) It is clear to me that the author simply was not familiar with her subject matter. Just because she is able to patch together some old notes and diary excerpts does not make her (or anyone else) an expert on the material presented.
d) Her conclusions in some areas where I happen to have a small degree of expertise (see Chapter 7) are a farce; leading me to believe that other chapters are similarly poorly done.
e) All of this, of course, leads me to wonder about the veracity of the work taken in totality.
This is hardly the "Bible" on the LDM that she would have readers beleive.
Too bad, as she had some interesting material in the book that in the right hands would have told an interesting story.
Tom Glover's 1st Book, to my mind, is still the reigning LDM champ.
1) Roger, you have made several good comments as to the Indian Springs
location and finding ore in various locations next to a trail between Indian Springs and Marsh valley. To my mind the logical conclusion you have drawn...that the Indian Spring area might be of interest... is well founded. This doesnt mean the LDM is located nearby, but it does mean that the area is well...."interesting"....lol.
2) Aurum and SC. Well said. You touch on some sensitive subject matters
and do so in an even-handed fashion. There is much more to this subject that meets the eye.
3) Joe, your analysis of the Massacre Site location is important, though probably not for the reason you speculate about (ie: that Waltz found the ore there).
4) Senor X, I do not beleive the map on page 170 of Corbin's book has anything to do with the list of supposed artifacts on pages 287-289.
Before you folks all quit your dayjobs and go running out to look for the LDM somewhere in the High Country east of Labarge there are some things you should understand about Corbins latest work:
a) The book was poorly researched and shoddily patched together.
b) Some of the source materials are interesting, yes. But the commentary by the author and conclusions she reaches on some of the material is so far-fetched and silly that it casts a dubious light on the rest of the work.
c) It is clear to me that the author simply was not familiar with her subject matter. Just because she is able to patch together some old notes and diary excerpts does not make her (or anyone else) an expert on the material presented.
d) Her conclusions in some areas where I happen to have a small degree of expertise (see Chapter 7) are a farce; leading me to believe that other chapters are similarly poorly done.
e) All of this, of course, leads me to wonder about the veracity of the work taken in totality.
This is hardly the "Bible" on the LDM that she would have readers beleive.
Too bad, as she had some interesting material in the book that in the right hands would have told an interesting story.
Tom Glover's 1st Book, to my mind, is still the reigning LDM champ.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
Peter,
Thanks for your input. A lot of your comments are beyond my scope. As for Waltz finding his gold at the massacre site, no one should hang there hat on that speculation. I started with that premise to begin a dialog and have not been disapointed. I believe Waltz was at the massacre grounds, but not for any reason you might suspect. He may or may not have picked up ore at that site. To me, other clues in this mystery make the massacre site important. Thus, your comment on me concerning my speculation, is on the money.
I had to deleate some of this message, TMI
You, as well as the rest of the members, are fishing this forum with little bait. Few new slants are offered for speculation as to their worth. It would be nice to see someone postulate a new theory on old clues.
Lets take the idea that Waltz told, someone, how to find his mine. Was that person Holmes or Thomas? What does Holmes have on the positive side to back up his claim? On the negative? Same thing for Thomas. If he told them both the truth, why could neither find the mine? If he lied to one, what was his motivation for the deception? I believe if Holmes had the true waybill, he would have found the mine. On the other hand, if Julia had the correct directions, she could have easily made a mistake or missed an important landmark. What did Holmes give up to make his search? What did Julia give up, other then her mental stability? Which way do each of you tip the scale and why?
Holmes was a man Waltz had threatened to kill.
He had never done any kindness for Waltz.
He more then likely stole the gold from under the bed.
His directions took him to a different entry into the mountains then Julia.
I will leave the plus side to the members. Someone else will have to come up with reasons for Waltz to send Julia and the boy to their possible deaths, over a lie.
Thanks for your input. A lot of your comments are beyond my scope. As for Waltz finding his gold at the massacre site, no one should hang there hat on that speculation. I started with that premise to begin a dialog and have not been disapointed. I believe Waltz was at the massacre grounds, but not for any reason you might suspect. He may or may not have picked up ore at that site. To me, other clues in this mystery make the massacre site important. Thus, your comment on me concerning my speculation, is on the money.
I had to deleate some of this message, TMI
You, as well as the rest of the members, are fishing this forum with little bait. Few new slants are offered for speculation as to their worth. It would be nice to see someone postulate a new theory on old clues.
Lets take the idea that Waltz told, someone, how to find his mine. Was that person Holmes or Thomas? What does Holmes have on the positive side to back up his claim? On the negative? Same thing for Thomas. If he told them both the truth, why could neither find the mine? If he lied to one, what was his motivation for the deception? I believe if Holmes had the true waybill, he would have found the mine. On the other hand, if Julia had the correct directions, she could have easily made a mistake or missed an important landmark. What did Holmes give up to make his search? What did Julia give up, other then her mental stability? Which way do each of you tip the scale and why?
Holmes was a man Waltz had threatened to kill.
He had never done any kindness for Waltz.
He more then likely stole the gold from under the bed.
His directions took him to a different entry into the mountains then Julia.
I will leave the plus side to the members. Someone else will have to come up with reasons for Waltz to send Julia and the boy to their possible deaths, over a lie.
Could this be possible
Here's another angle on the massacre. These are just my "thinking out of the box" thoughts. Could it be that the massacre actually started across Apache trail at one or more of the mines around Youngsberg (Goldfield)?
It's my understanding that the Goldfield miners broke into old shafts on numerous occasions. This would mean that the area had been discovered prior to 1892 and was most likely not of Anglo origin.
With that said could the Peralta's have been mining there and as they were heading out they were attacked. Realizing they were vastly outnumbered maybe they headed toward the high ground of the Supe Mastiff or were herded in that direction.
The area we know of as the last stand could of actually been the place of the beginning of the end or a party that was culled out and slaughtered. The remaining miners eventually breaking for the canyons in hopes of losing the indians or hiding from them with all the miners eventually being killed, broken and unorganized.
Fast forward to Edwards following the bodies into the canyon in the same way that the mexicans raced for their lives.
I know this doesn't account for other evidence such as the large camp in Marsh Canyon or the arrasta supposedly found but hey, the box is over there and I'm over here.
It's my understanding that the Goldfield miners broke into old shafts on numerous occasions. This would mean that the area had been discovered prior to 1892 and was most likely not of Anglo origin.
With that said could the Peralta's have been mining there and as they were heading out they were attacked. Realizing they were vastly outnumbered maybe they headed toward the high ground of the Supe Mastiff or were herded in that direction.
The area we know of as the last stand could of actually been the place of the beginning of the end or a party that was culled out and slaughtered. The remaining miners eventually breaking for the canyons in hopes of losing the indians or hiding from them with all the miners eventually being killed, broken and unorganized.
Fast forward to Edwards following the bodies into the canyon in the same way that the mexicans raced for their lives.
I know this doesn't account for other evidence such as the large camp in Marsh Canyon or the arrasta supposedly found but hey, the box is over there and I'm over here.
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Dutchman's Gold/Massacre grounds
Knun,
A new voice in the wilderness. You have taken a giant step out of the box on that post. Novel idea and entirely possible in my opinion. My opinion and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee At starbucks. Stepping out of that box is what will find the LDM, if it exists. My own guess on the Massacre, is that the Mexicans were trying to get to open desert. Cliffs and canyons are something I would think they would try to avoid. No place for flight, if fight didn't work. High ground inside the range is another matter all together. I think a little guerrilla warfare took place, until they reached the massacre site. The Apache just took little bites, while hearding them onto the killing ground, and until then the Mexicans never realized how serious the situation was. We know where they were trapped but not where they started from. Of course they may have started from a number of different locations, which is a popular theory. How many Apache do you think it took to overpower the Mexicans? Remember, these two races had been mortal enemies for generations. The Mexicans would not have taken the Apache lightly. Pretty unusual for the local tribes to put together the numbers they would need , to wipe out the Peraltas. The Apache almost never attacked a large party, especially if they were well armed. Hard to emagine them going after a group of one hundred or more under any conditions. What do you think Peter? Was there a leader in the area strong enough to pull them together?
What a World Series!!!!! Game six just ended.
Joe
A new voice in the wilderness. You have taken a giant step out of the box on that post. Novel idea and entirely possible in my opinion. My opinion and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee At starbucks. Stepping out of that box is what will find the LDM, if it exists. My own guess on the Massacre, is that the Mexicans were trying to get to open desert. Cliffs and canyons are something I would think they would try to avoid. No place for flight, if fight didn't work. High ground inside the range is another matter all together. I think a little guerrilla warfare took place, until they reached the massacre site. The Apache just took little bites, while hearding them onto the killing ground, and until then the Mexicans never realized how serious the situation was. We know where they were trapped but not where they started from. Of course they may have started from a number of different locations, which is a popular theory. How many Apache do you think it took to overpower the Mexicans? Remember, these two races had been mortal enemies for generations. The Mexicans would not have taken the Apache lightly. Pretty unusual for the local tribes to put together the numbers they would need , to wipe out the Peraltas. The Apache almost never attacked a large party, especially if they were well armed. Hard to emagine them going after a group of one hundred or more under any conditions. What do you think Peter? Was there a leader in the area strong enough to pull them together?
What a World Series!!!!! Game six just ended.
Joe
I'd reckon (and this is a best guesstimate) that the Mexican mining group numbered 50-75, thought I doubt they were ever in bunches more than 40 or so at one time. I beleive the Apache numbered 200-300 once the final reinforcements from the Pinal/Gila country showed up on the scene.
As to leadership, my guess is a Yavpais chief, Nanti -Chaddi, started the festivities, but the event didnt end until the Apache royalty...the Bedonkohe Chiricahua...showed up for the end game. I would imagine several prominent Bedonkohe warriors were on the scene and if this took place in the mid 1860s, their number could have included several who became well known some years later.
As to the way the fight was fought, I beleive it boiled westward from the interior of the Superstitions, not from the Goldfield area. Could be wrong...but I dont think so.
As to leadership, my guess is a Yavpais chief, Nanti -Chaddi, started the festivities, but the event didnt end until the Apache royalty...the Bedonkohe Chiricahua...showed up for the end game. I would imagine several prominent Bedonkohe warriors were on the scene and if this took place in the mid 1860s, their number could have included several who became well known some years later.
As to the way the fight was fought, I beleive it boiled westward from the interior of the Superstitions, not from the Goldfield area. Could be wrong...but I dont think so.