Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
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Joe Ribaudo
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Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
Anyone ever consider that Waltz might have found the massacre site, recovered the gold on the ground, then hid it in the mountains? That might explaine the oft quoted, " If you find the mine, you will find the cache". He could have easily missed the gold that was found at the site latter. Fearing that someone might have a claim to the gold he had found, would be a good reason to keep the discovery to himself. Any of you Dutch hunters ever run into an old geezer named Obie Stoker?
Yes, that's one of the main conclusions I've reached, too. Waltz could have simply followed the "trail of dropped gold" all the way to its source. Of course, the "cache" could very well have been moved afterward, but, just for an hypothetical "starting place," I propose the following:
What I think would be really interesting is for this site to have a poll: Something along the lines of "Where do you believe the Peralta massacre area occured?" E.g. near Peter's, near Black Top, along Second Water, way further East, etc.
A side benefit of this might be even to clear up some of the ambiguity/confusion that I for one have heard a lot of--that the "Massacre Grounds" that we all see on virtually every modern Superstitions map (the area before First Water trailhead) is THE (as in the only) Massacre Grounds, the confusion seemingly being that the Peraltas' and the Apache cliff leap--sometimes referred to as Massacre Falls--are the same. The nomenclature is so similar between the two, that I can see where people would refer to the same area as some sort of all-inclusive "massacre grounds."
Thought for food, hehe.
nico h
What I think would be really interesting is for this site to have a poll: Something along the lines of "Where do you believe the Peralta massacre area occured?" E.g. near Peter's, near Black Top, along Second Water, way further East, etc.
A side benefit of this might be even to clear up some of the ambiguity/confusion that I for one have heard a lot of--that the "Massacre Grounds" that we all see on virtually every modern Superstitions map (the area before First Water trailhead) is THE (as in the only) Massacre Grounds, the confusion seemingly being that the Peraltas' and the Apache cliff leap--sometimes referred to as Massacre Falls--are the same. The nomenclature is so similar between the two, that I can see where people would refer to the same area as some sort of all-inclusive "massacre grounds."
Thought for food, hehe.
nico h
My understanding of the "Massacre Grounds" (and as in all things LDM this is in no way definitive) is the following.
What is commonly refered to the Massacre Grounds today is the area where the last REMNANT of Mexican miners and their (most likely) Indian
(Papago? Pima? Tarahumara?) peons met their fate at the hands of several bands of Apache warriors belonging to different Apache sub-groups (Yavapais, Pinalenos,Gilanos, Coyotero etc..)
While the current popular theory is that the Miners were herded into an ambush along the northwestern slopes of the Superstition Mtn Massif, I beleive that the final fight was very similar to what happened to Custer and the 7th some 14 years later: It was a swirling running fight between Marsh Valley and Massacre Ridge...the miners, exhausted and out-numbered just made for whatever high ground was handy and settled on a group of boulders on a hilltop.(This hilltop is heavily monumented and is easily discernible today....it is not a place I would try to defend as while there are steep slopes to the west east and north, the southern end of the hill is easily accessed from a small flat mesa-like area). Here they were picked off until a final charge drove them off the hilltop where their remains were found a couple of years later by troopers of the 1st AZ Volunteer Cavalry.
Now the question begs....if this was the end of the fight where did the fight start? Where did the Miners regroup ? Are there any known areas where other skeletons have been found en masse?
There is much less documented evidence pointing out any answers to the above questions. Your guess in this regard is as good as mine. There have been a few anecdotes handed down over the years. Tales of groups of skeletons found by early prospectors in remote areas of the mountains.
Apache rumors of a 2nd "big fight" (or was this really the 1st?) in the eastern interior of the Superstitions. There was also the evidence of destroyed base and work camps found.
My guess is that the Apache over ran a sizable work camp, said to themsleves "hmmm now is our chance to kill them all"..then sent runners and smoke up to recruit other warriors.... all the while harrassing the main
Mexican Camp in Marsh Valley. Once the additional warriors were assembled the Miners realized that their lives depended on getting to the Goldfield area and the open desert. They tried to break out but found there was simply 'indeh nchaa"... much Apaches... too many for them to handle.
Am I right in my theory? Lord knows. Good guess tho , I figure...
What is commonly refered to the Massacre Grounds today is the area where the last REMNANT of Mexican miners and their (most likely) Indian
(Papago? Pima? Tarahumara?) peons met their fate at the hands of several bands of Apache warriors belonging to different Apache sub-groups (Yavapais, Pinalenos,Gilanos, Coyotero etc..)
While the current popular theory is that the Miners were herded into an ambush along the northwestern slopes of the Superstition Mtn Massif, I beleive that the final fight was very similar to what happened to Custer and the 7th some 14 years later: It was a swirling running fight between Marsh Valley and Massacre Ridge...the miners, exhausted and out-numbered just made for whatever high ground was handy and settled on a group of boulders on a hilltop.(This hilltop is heavily monumented and is easily discernible today....it is not a place I would try to defend as while there are steep slopes to the west east and north, the southern end of the hill is easily accessed from a small flat mesa-like area). Here they were picked off until a final charge drove them off the hilltop where their remains were found a couple of years later by troopers of the 1st AZ Volunteer Cavalry.
Now the question begs....if this was the end of the fight where did the fight start? Where did the Miners regroup ? Are there any known areas where other skeletons have been found en masse?
There is much less documented evidence pointing out any answers to the above questions. Your guess in this regard is as good as mine. There have been a few anecdotes handed down over the years. Tales of groups of skeletons found by early prospectors in remote areas of the mountains.
Apache rumors of a 2nd "big fight" (or was this really the 1st?) in the eastern interior of the Superstitions. There was also the evidence of destroyed base and work camps found.
My guess is that the Apache over ran a sizable work camp, said to themsleves "hmmm now is our chance to kill them all"..then sent runners and smoke up to recruit other warriors.... all the while harrassing the main
Mexican Camp in Marsh Valley. Once the additional warriors were assembled the Miners realized that their lives depended on getting to the Goldfield area and the open desert. They tried to break out but found there was simply 'indeh nchaa"... much Apaches... too many for them to handle.
Am I right in my theory? Lord knows. Good guess tho , I figure...
Dutchman Gold/ massacre grounds
If that were a main Mexican work camp , in Marsh Valley and the massacre grounds really were on the slopes of the Superstition Mountain, than my question is where were they working rich deposits or mines in an area devoid of mineral?
Well, if you read my post carefully, you will see that I make a distinction between a "sizable work camp" and the main Mexican camp in Marsh Valley.
I do not beleive these two camps were one in the same. The Marsh Valley camp was used because of ready water supplies, easy access and egress, and Bluff Springs Mtn was a handy place to corral animals against raids.
The main "work camp" however, was in a different location, nearer to the mines and is the reason why various trails lead away from Marsh Valley into the interior of the mountains. I am fairly certain, given the information I have, that it was this workcamp that was hit first for a variety of reasons and the fight then boiled westward from there.
I do not beleive these two camps were one in the same. The Marsh Valley camp was used because of ready water supplies, easy access and egress, and Bluff Springs Mtn was a handy place to corral animals against raids.
The main "work camp" however, was in a different location, nearer to the mines and is the reason why various trails lead away from Marsh Valley into the interior of the mountains. I am fairly certain, given the information I have, that it was this workcamp that was hit first for a variety of reasons and the fight then boiled westward from there.
Hmm...
Hello all.
Peter, when you wrote
"...a final charge drove them off the hilltop where their remains were found a couple of years later by troopers of the 1st AZ Volunteer Cavalry,"
are you inferring that these miners were driven off the cliff at the site you're talking about, i.e. the Northwestern area of the Superstition massif--the area referred to as Massacre Grounds, also called Massacre Falls?
I ask because my info and as far as I know, the commonly accepted lore of this area and its name(s) derive from where the cavalry cornered the Apache, and rather than be taken prisoner, the Apache lept to their deaths, their bones jutting out from the cliff walls from where some were caught in the fall, bones visible for several decades afterward. This sounds at least syntactically what you were were writing, only that it was miners, and not Apache, who "took the plunge."
However, I've also heard that this "massacre falls" or "Apache Leap Mountain" is near Superior, where Superiorites (if that's what they call themselves, hehe) claim as the source of the Apache Massacre legend and ensuing Apache tears mythos.
So, once again we have differering places, as well as differing "whodunnits." I have a feeling there's very little concesus on this, and I think it would be great if someone could set the record straight. After all, if we could find out (through historical record) where the skeletons of the miners were found, AND where the skeletons of the Apaches were found, we'd have a good starting place. But it seems that at least two legends have become confused over the years, at least in the minds of people I've heard discuss them.
Ron and Webmaster Joe, any chance of making this a poll? I know at least ONE serious Dutchman hunter on this forum who believes the Peralta massacre occurred much farther in than the only area labeled the "Massacre Grounds" on today's maps.
Or is the distinction of who-was-where-in-which-massacre-grounds one of the coveted secrets of hunters?
nico h
Peter, when you wrote
"...a final charge drove them off the hilltop where their remains were found a couple of years later by troopers of the 1st AZ Volunteer Cavalry,"
are you inferring that these miners were driven off the cliff at the site you're talking about, i.e. the Northwestern area of the Superstition massif--the area referred to as Massacre Grounds, also called Massacre Falls?
I ask because my info and as far as I know, the commonly accepted lore of this area and its name(s) derive from where the cavalry cornered the Apache, and rather than be taken prisoner, the Apache lept to their deaths, their bones jutting out from the cliff walls from where some were caught in the fall, bones visible for several decades afterward. This sounds at least syntactically what you were were writing, only that it was miners, and not Apache, who "took the plunge."
However, I've also heard that this "massacre falls" or "Apache Leap Mountain" is near Superior, where Superiorites (if that's what they call themselves, hehe) claim as the source of the Apache Massacre legend and ensuing Apache tears mythos.
So, once again we have differering places, as well as differing "whodunnits." I have a feeling there's very little concesus on this, and I think it would be great if someone could set the record straight. After all, if we could find out (through historical record) where the skeletons of the miners were found, AND where the skeletons of the Apaches were found, we'd have a good starting place. But it seems that at least two legends have become confused over the years, at least in the minds of people I've heard discuss them.
Ron and Webmaster Joe, any chance of making this a poll? I know at least ONE serious Dutchman hunter on this forum who believes the Peralta massacre occurred much farther in than the only area labeled the "Massacre Grounds" on today's maps.
Or is the distinction of who-was-where-in-which-massacre-grounds one of the coveted secrets of hunters?
nico h
Oh boy.
My apologies the confusion. When said "driven off the hilltop" I did not mean that they leapt off a cliff to their death. I meant that the weight of Apache numbers drove the surviving remnants into a little grassy valley where they huddled beside some boulders and were at last over run.
Please do NOT confuse the Apache Leap tale and the Massacre story. They are two seperate distinct events. You are correct, according to legend the Apache Leap event took place in the mid-70s near Superior.
No Apache bones were found near the Massacre area because the Apache always carried off their dead whenever possible. In this case I suspect the number of Apache dead was very small and in any event they would have been taken away and buried by their relatives who fought at their side.
A word about the topography at the Massacre Grounds. There are virtually no cliffs there to speak of. There are a couple of needles to the north and south of Last Stand Hill but the area is not terribly rugged..though it was slow growing with lots of brush he last time I visited the site.
My apologies the confusion. When said "driven off the hilltop" I did not mean that they leapt off a cliff to their death. I meant that the weight of Apache numbers drove the surviving remnants into a little grassy valley where they huddled beside some boulders and were at last over run.
Please do NOT confuse the Apache Leap tale and the Massacre story. They are two seperate distinct events. You are correct, according to legend the Apache Leap event took place in the mid-70s near Superior.
No Apache bones were found near the Massacre area because the Apache always carried off their dead whenever possible. In this case I suspect the number of Apache dead was very small and in any event they would have been taken away and buried by their relatives who fought at their side.
A word about the topography at the Massacre Grounds. There are virtually no cliffs there to speak of. There are a couple of needles to the north and south of Last Stand Hill but the area is not terribly rugged..though it was slow growing with lots of brush he last time I visited the site.
Hi Peter.
Nah, I really didn't think you had them confused, but the wording you used was just translatable enough to be construed as "taking a leap," hehe. Of course I had presumed you knew the difference between the events, but I called attention to it because there are a lot of people who HAVE confused the two, many attributing the Apache leap to the area designated "THE (as in the only!) Massacre Grounds."
By the way, and this could also possibly lead to people's confusion, there IS one cliff, with a sheer dropoff of about 200' or so. There's a trail before First Water that leads through the modern maps' designation of Massacre Grounds, (the place you and I are referring to as the Northwest area of Superstition Mntn), up the back for about a mile, then you'll end up on a short plateau, and on the Southwest side of this lies the cliff. A hiker would miss it if he didn't know to look hehind him, since once up there, it's natural to look out to the North and East for the wonderful vistas, affording unobstructed views of 4 Peaks, Battleship, Black Mesa, Geronimo, and all the other mountains around.
Just to clarify, I know the difference, and you know, as do many others here, but I personally know some who think that this spot is the Apache Leap. And I also know some who believe the Peralta miner massacre didn't take place here, but much farther in, opposing the modern maps designation.
This is why I think it'd be interesting to see a poll.
Oh. Also, Peter, I've heard/read many accounts of bones of the Apache jumpers sticking out of crevices in the side of the cliff, that jutted out for many years, at least long enough for people to report them. Any thoughts? I ask because I believe the Apaches took their dead with them if it was in their power. Which might oppose popular accounts of seeing bones in the cliffs for year after... Seems you know a lot about the Apache customs, so am wondering if you know something about these reports.
I know it's no treally DM-related, but any input you have on this would be of great personal interst to me at least!
Cheers.
nico h
Nah, I really didn't think you had them confused, but the wording you used was just translatable enough to be construed as "taking a leap," hehe. Of course I had presumed you knew the difference between the events, but I called attention to it because there are a lot of people who HAVE confused the two, many attributing the Apache leap to the area designated "THE (as in the only!) Massacre Grounds."
By the way, and this could also possibly lead to people's confusion, there IS one cliff, with a sheer dropoff of about 200' or so. There's a trail before First Water that leads through the modern maps' designation of Massacre Grounds, (the place you and I are referring to as the Northwest area of Superstition Mntn), up the back for about a mile, then you'll end up on a short plateau, and on the Southwest side of this lies the cliff. A hiker would miss it if he didn't know to look hehind him, since once up there, it's natural to look out to the North and East for the wonderful vistas, affording unobstructed views of 4 Peaks, Battleship, Black Mesa, Geronimo, and all the other mountains around.
Just to clarify, I know the difference, and you know, as do many others here, but I personally know some who think that this spot is the Apache Leap. And I also know some who believe the Peralta miner massacre didn't take place here, but much farther in, opposing the modern maps designation.
This is why I think it'd be interesting to see a poll.
Oh. Also, Peter, I've heard/read many accounts of bones of the Apache jumpers sticking out of crevices in the side of the cliff, that jutted out for many years, at least long enough for people to report them. Any thoughts? I ask because I believe the Apaches took their dead with them if it was in their power. Which might oppose popular accounts of seeing bones in the cliffs for year after... Seems you know a lot about the Apache customs, so am wondering if you know something about these reports.
I know it's no treally DM-related, but any input you have on this would be of great personal interst to me at least!
Cheers.
nico h
The little mesa or plateau that you are talking about is at the end of the trail that one takes if one leaves the Massacre Grounds Trailhead and just follows the trail as far as one can go. I'm not sure the drop off is 200 feet, looked about 1/2 that far from the bottom but I could be wrong. There is a deep cut in the NW face of this mesa which I followed down without killing myself...lol... into the grassy valley below. Its this valley (though a tad further north of the mesa area) where I think the last remnant of Mexican Miners were over run.
From the accounts that I know the Apaches that were involved in the Apache Leap episode were Pinalenos. The Pinalenos were a conglomeration of different bands that made their home near the Pinal Mtns (that became the home of Picket Post). The Pinalenos seemed to be a sort of "United Nations" of various Apache bands and included Yavapais, Tonto, Gilanos and a small sprinkling of Bedonkohe Apache. It is said by some that Nanni Chaddi had a sizable following among the Pinalenos and that the famous Apache Jack of Bark Notes/Sims Ely fame belonged to this band.
The reason I believe there were unburied bones for years afterwards (just as there were after the Skull Cave fight up on the Salt River) was because entire clans and families were simply wiped out in these two confrontations. To the Apache back then (and to some few traditional Apache today), taking care of ones ancestors was/is a sacred, spiritual duty. But the key word here is ANCESTORS. If your entire family is wiped out, no other Apache would be bound to care for your remains or ensure you a safe passage to the Happy Place. I think the remains lay in place for so long because there simply wasnt anyone left to look after them.
And if there was, and they followed the Old Ways, then they would have been cared for.
Hope this helps some.
P
From the accounts that I know the Apaches that were involved in the Apache Leap episode were Pinalenos. The Pinalenos were a conglomeration of different bands that made their home near the Pinal Mtns (that became the home of Picket Post). The Pinalenos seemed to be a sort of "United Nations" of various Apache bands and included Yavapais, Tonto, Gilanos and a small sprinkling of Bedonkohe Apache. It is said by some that Nanni Chaddi had a sizable following among the Pinalenos and that the famous Apache Jack of Bark Notes/Sims Ely fame belonged to this band.
The reason I believe there were unburied bones for years afterwards (just as there were after the Skull Cave fight up on the Salt River) was because entire clans and families were simply wiped out in these two confrontations. To the Apache back then (and to some few traditional Apache today), taking care of ones ancestors was/is a sacred, spiritual duty. But the key word here is ANCESTORS. If your entire family is wiped out, no other Apache would be bound to care for your remains or ensure you a safe passage to the Happy Place. I think the remains lay in place for so long because there simply wasnt anyone left to look after them.
And if there was, and they followed the Old Ways, then they would have been cared for.
Hope this helps some.
P
Thanks for the insights! They do help explain some things. And you're probably right about the height of the cliff! I initially typed 150', but it's been a little while since I've seen it, so in reverie, probably overestimated at 200'. Actually, I was up there a couple weeks ago, but had evidently made a left turn at Albuquerque, and missed the cliff by a few hundred yards, and it was too hot to backtrack, hehe. Ah well.
Funny analogy, about the "United Nations" of Apache nations! Still grinning about that one.
Thanks for the replies. I enjoy our exchanges.
n
Funny analogy, about the "United Nations" of Apache nations! Still grinning about that one.
Thanks for the replies. I enjoy our exchanges.
n
Massacre
Very good posts, guys. Thanks.
On a different note, I would like to take this opportunity - since we were discussing "massacres" - to bring up something I found interesting.
There is a book entitled "Proud Spirit" written by a lady named Rosemary Altea... bless her heart... Anyway, the cover has a photo of her with Indian bone necklace and the unmistakable facade of Superstition Mountain - as one would see from Goldfield - in the background behind her. Needless to say, the book caught my eye - and without even reading the backcover - I bought it.
The book is about many things. Learning and healing. Listening to one's inner spirit. Other nice lessons... Ms. Altea is from England. She herself has a "spiritual adivisor" - Grey Eagle - a spirit from whom she receives spiritual enlightenment when she is in need.
There is a reason Superstition Mountain is behind her. She made a trip to Phoenix and ended up near the mountains. Visually, they captivated her. She ended up having a spiritual experience as a result of climbing up Superstition Mountain.
Not meaning to belittle her in any way, I mention the following only as an example of how some things can be confusing to people... Ms. Altea climbed up the Mountain and had her vision. She "saw all the spirits of the massacred Indians rising up by the hundreds out of the Massacre Grounds below her...." Apparently she was under the impression that it was Indians who were Massacred... Not the white eyes...
With the way Natives Americans as a whole were treated, it is no doubt she came to Phoenix with such a preconceived idea...
On a different note, I would like to take this opportunity - since we were discussing "massacres" - to bring up something I found interesting.
There is a book entitled "Proud Spirit" written by a lady named Rosemary Altea... bless her heart... Anyway, the cover has a photo of her with Indian bone necklace and the unmistakable facade of Superstition Mountain - as one would see from Goldfield - in the background behind her. Needless to say, the book caught my eye - and without even reading the backcover - I bought it.
The book is about many things. Learning and healing. Listening to one's inner spirit. Other nice lessons... Ms. Altea is from England. She herself has a "spiritual adivisor" - Grey Eagle - a spirit from whom she receives spiritual enlightenment when she is in need.
There is a reason Superstition Mountain is behind her. She made a trip to Phoenix and ended up near the mountains. Visually, they captivated her. She ended up having a spiritual experience as a result of climbing up Superstition Mountain.
Not meaning to belittle her in any way, I mention the following only as an example of how some things can be confusing to people... Ms. Altea climbed up the Mountain and had her vision. She "saw all the spirits of the massacred Indians rising up by the hundreds out of the Massacre Grounds below her...." Apparently she was under the impression that it was Indians who were Massacred... Not the white eyes...
With the way Natives Americans as a whole were treated, it is no doubt she came to Phoenix with such a preconceived idea...
Hi S.C.
Yep, exactly what I mean. We can forgive her, hailing from England and all, hehe. But, it brings up what I was talking about. There is a surprising (to me anyway) number of people who would appear to be more "in-the-know" who get this stuff confused, and for so many reasons, sometimes justifiable ones.
But I still think it'd be good to see if everyone agrees where the bodies of the Peralta miners were found. I know for a fact there will be dissenters, but it would be interesting. Especially if anyone can authenticate the bodies' location, as from a newspaper article and the like.
Ciao for niao,
n
Yep, exactly what I mean. We can forgive her, hailing from England and all, hehe. But, it brings up what I was talking about. There is a surprising (to me anyway) number of people who would appear to be more "in-the-know" who get this stuff confused, and for so many reasons, sometimes justifiable ones.
But I still think it'd be good to see if everyone agrees where the bodies of the Peralta miners were found. I know for a fact there will be dissenters, but it would be interesting. Especially if anyone can authenticate the bodies' location, as from a newspaper article and the like.
Ciao for niao,
n
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Joe Ribaudo
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Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
In all these years, not one piece of phiscal evidence, has been brought forward establishing the truth of a massacre at that spot. That does not mean it did not happen. There is a tremendous amount of legend which also can not be disproved. It makes sense to me that, if a massacre of the Peraltas took place, it happened at that place. It also makes complete sense that the Dutchman found his gold there and hid it in the mountains. "You can't find the cache withot finding the mine". No mine.
The real question here is.........Blink!
The real question here is.........Blink!
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
Actually, there was the evidence of the twenty-odd skeletons discovered at the site by Edwards and Green. It's also my understanding that Tom Glover found a human vertabrae(?) on the site, although that isn't really proof of the massacre.Joe Ribaudo wrote:In all these years, not one piece of phiscal evidence, has been brought forward establishing the truth of a massacre at that spot.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Dutchmans Gold/Massacre Grounds
Not one piece of physical evedence still holds true. Glovers story is just that, a story. Just because he writes it does not make it fact. These stories are what makes it so difficult to find the Lost Dutchman Mine. Stories are not physical evedence.
That leads to my next posted question.
That leads to my next posted question.
Wow. This is a good string!
I agree, Joe, that stories are not physical evidence. So, being an academic (or a recovering one, hehe), I tend to lend validity to other academics, such as Glover, but only insofar as they can physically document, as from newspapers, public records, etc. My search, like most or all hunters, has been based on the attempt to ferret out theory (legend, myth) from the "hardest" possible evidence. Pictures of Waltz's records, documented ore analysis, old newspapers showing the existence of key people, and where they were. I've never seen a picture, nor read a news article or other "authorized" form of information showing skeletons--or where they for certain once were--of either massacre.
I think Glover's done a great job, and from what I hear, so has Helen. Granted, they're both prone to positing theory, but we all have to, simply because we're so removed by time and lack of documentation from any possible evidence. But they HAVE provided some documentation of documentation...
So, the burden of proof is on all of us, always, until someone can show more documents, pictures, existing gold samples and saddle bags and maps, that I suspect some are coveting privately.
At this point it does seem to be a bit of a leap of faith in a lot of different areas, and so we lean on hearsay. But can we believe in the aforementioned documentation? I choose to do so.
Salud,
n
I agree, Joe, that stories are not physical evidence. So, being an academic (or a recovering one, hehe), I tend to lend validity to other academics, such as Glover, but only insofar as they can physically document, as from newspapers, public records, etc. My search, like most or all hunters, has been based on the attempt to ferret out theory (legend, myth) from the "hardest" possible evidence. Pictures of Waltz's records, documented ore analysis, old newspapers showing the existence of key people, and where they were. I've never seen a picture, nor read a news article or other "authorized" form of information showing skeletons--or where they for certain once were--of either massacre.
I think Glover's done a great job, and from what I hear, so has Helen. Granted, they're both prone to positing theory, but we all have to, simply because we're so removed by time and lack of documentation from any possible evidence. But they HAVE provided some documentation of documentation...
So, the burden of proof is on all of us, always, until someone can show more documents, pictures, existing gold samples and saddle bags and maps, that I suspect some are coveting privately.
At this point it does seem to be a bit of a leap of faith in a lot of different areas, and so we lean on hearsay. But can we believe in the aforementioned documentation? I choose to do so.
Salud,
n
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Joe Ribaudo
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Dutchmans Gold/Massacre Grounds
Peter,Peter wrote:Joe
You are absolutely wrong in your last assertion. There was and is physical evidence...which still exists to this day.
And Glover's information in his book was not very far from the truth..btw.
P
I could be wrong of course. Maybe I should have said, I have never seen any physical evidence. Perhaps you can clear this up. What have you seen? I believe a massacre or battle took place at that location without any physical artifacts to back up that conclusion. My reasoning has nothing to do with a massacre, but is the product of my other conclusions dealing with the location of theLDM.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Along this same vein,LDM wrote:Ron ,
The issue of the area being devoid of mineral with no mines or rich deposits is a relative statement. True there were no rich goldmines dug in the general vicinity, but the area is definitely not devoid of mineral.
Prospectors and gold seekers do not always strike lode gold in quartz outcroppings at the surface level. In 90% of the cases, gold is found by finding trace minerals along the surface and digging to try to find or follow a vein. Often, associated minerals are the key to finding gold further down along the veins.
This is what occured in Marsh Valley. The first soldiers, prospectors and cattlemen to visit the Marrsh Valley noticed numerous shafts and holes dug into the northwest end of Bluff Spring Mountain. No gold was found but the mystery was solved when a large deposit of Manganese was identified. Manganese is a mineral often associated with gold. Manganese replacement deposits can yield large quantities of visable
gold. This is what the Mexicans were doing, probeing the deposit trying to strike a gold replacement. The size of the Manganese deposit could have kept them busy for several years. No evidence can be found today that the Mexicans were successful but it is not out of the question that they were.
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You all might want to revisit the book I keep returning to, when the new evidence starts to muck-up the water. You will occaisionaly find a little nugget you may have overlooked. Sims Ely, page 84 As I said in an earlier post, a large, previously unmentioned deposit of Manganese can be located by following a number of the maps now in print. Coincidence?
Dutchman gold/massacre grounds
Joe,
I might try and clear up some ststements before they become mucked up. You can find traces of gold and other minerals all over the mouintains. Actually one can find gold probaly in the water out there. I've assayed about a thousand specimens and found traces and abit more in alot of it, but if there is to be a deposit of the magnitude of the mine that the Spanish and Dutchman worked , trust me, it isn't anywhere on the west side, where the preponderence of rich outcrops is non existant. There has to be the right geological conditions for such a thing. The Dutchman ore is in mesothermal quartz, which is only found on the east side. The potential for a formidable ore body is great there. While it is true that where you find signs of ore and small amounts of gold, it can lead you to richer deposits, again you have to be in the right geologic area, like the Sierra Nevada's as an example.
I might try and clear up some ststements before they become mucked up. You can find traces of gold and other minerals all over the mouintains. Actually one can find gold probaly in the water out there. I've assayed about a thousand specimens and found traces and abit more in alot of it, but if there is to be a deposit of the magnitude of the mine that the Spanish and Dutchman worked , trust me, it isn't anywhere on the west side, where the preponderence of rich outcrops is non existant. There has to be the right geological conditions for such a thing. The Dutchman ore is in mesothermal quartz, which is only found on the east side. The potential for a formidable ore body is great there. While it is true that where you find signs of ore and small amounts of gold, it can lead you to richer deposits, again you have to be in the right geologic area, like the Sierra Nevada's as an example.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Dutchman's Gold/Massacre Grounds
Ron,
I only used that quote because of the mention of the Manganese, Not to question what you had said. You have forgotten more then I will ever know concerning geology and the history of the Supes. A geologist friend had to tell me what I had found and even then I did not put any importance to it. It may still be unimportant. When you say "on the east side", where are you drawing the east/west geological line? If we all go by what the geologist say, we would not be looking anywhere within the Superstition Range. Although the area you are developing has a higher possibility for mineral deposits, I believe, no professional geologist would reccomend to his employers that they spend ten minuets anywhere in the Superstition Range. If there is one man alive today who could prove them wrong, I would put my money on you. "Gold is where you find it".
My source for the believed lack of any sizeable, valuable, mineral deposit within the confines of the Superstition Range, is a man who has located workable gold deposits for a company with mines in South America. The clues which lead me to search where I search, have nothing to do with geology and not much to do with maps. The searchers who depended on those two things have had poor luck in the Supes. Their books however, have done quite well. Thanks for your opinion. It is taken with serious respect and consideration.
Joe Ribaudo
I only used that quote because of the mention of the Manganese, Not to question what you had said. You have forgotten more then I will ever know concerning geology and the history of the Supes. A geologist friend had to tell me what I had found and even then I did not put any importance to it. It may still be unimportant. When you say "on the east side", where are you drawing the east/west geological line? If we all go by what the geologist say, we would not be looking anywhere within the Superstition Range. Although the area you are developing has a higher possibility for mineral deposits, I believe, no professional geologist would reccomend to his employers that they spend ten minuets anywhere in the Superstition Range. If there is one man alive today who could prove them wrong, I would put my money on you. "Gold is where you find it".
My source for the believed lack of any sizeable, valuable, mineral deposit within the confines of the Superstition Range, is a man who has located workable gold deposits for a company with mines in South America. The clues which lead me to search where I search, have nothing to do with geology and not much to do with maps. The searchers who depended on those two things have had poor luck in the Supes. Their books however, have done quite well. Thanks for your opinion. It is taken with serious respect and consideration.
Joe Ribaudo
Dutchman gold/ massacre grounds
Joe,
Once again, thank you for your imput and experiences you share with us all. There is no defining geological line , which separates the east from the west, but as you go east of Peter's Canyon , you are getting into the eastern part of the Superstitions. The part that I 'm interested in is not far from Superior and the Silver King, as a crow flies. As we know , this was a major mining area stretching to Globe, where much copper, gold and silver was produced. This same geological condition does exist in the Superstitions in the eastern half, and geologists who have said that there is nothing ,were basing their conclusions on the assay reports that the United States Geological Dept. had collected. I have seen this report as I'm sure many have, and the assays of the eastern side are much better. Silver is very high in some places here, and so is copper. Gold is present , as in the Randolph Mine , which averaged in places 2 oz. per ton., which is not bad. Again for a deposit such as the Dutchman's , there has to be evidence that would support the existence of such a vein. Clues and stories are fine and they are fun to deal with, but I don't feel that any clue or multitude of clues will help anyone find the mine. By the way who knows about the mercury vapor testing that was done in the 70's? I'm sure most of you do. A interesting bit of information.
Once again, thank you for your imput and experiences you share with us all. There is no defining geological line , which separates the east from the west, but as you go east of Peter's Canyon , you are getting into the eastern part of the Superstitions. The part that I 'm interested in is not far from Superior and the Silver King, as a crow flies. As we know , this was a major mining area stretching to Globe, where much copper, gold and silver was produced. This same geological condition does exist in the Superstitions in the eastern half, and geologists who have said that there is nothing ,were basing their conclusions on the assay reports that the United States Geological Dept. had collected. I have seen this report as I'm sure many have, and the assays of the eastern side are much better. Silver is very high in some places here, and so is copper. Gold is present , as in the Randolph Mine , which averaged in places 2 oz. per ton., which is not bad. Again for a deposit such as the Dutchman's , there has to be evidence that would support the existence of such a vein. Clues and stories are fine and they are fun to deal with, but I don't feel that any clue or multitude of clues will help anyone find the mine. By the way who knows about the mercury vapor testing that was done in the 70's? I'm sure most of you do. A interesting bit of information.