Petalta Battle - Where Did It Start???

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
señor x
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Post by señor x »

While I don't have any good theories to suggest as to the owners of the saddle bags or why they were found at that location, there is another way of looking at the story.

Would Haywood really give Kochera a map to the actual mine/cache location? It seems like Haywood figured that he was already in enough trouble, and if he sent others to the location it would just make things worse for him. But, perhaps Haywood knew that the saddlebags were on Peter's Mesa, and this was a place sufficiently distant from the actual mine/cache. Then he might feel free to give a Kochera a map to the saddlebags. Or has this always been the assumption made by those who have failed to find anything up on Peter's Mesa?
Peter
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Post by Peter »

Senor X,

Good logical post.

Another thought that has occurred to me is that most folks are unaware of the sheer size and ruggedness of Peters Mesa. It runs for 3 miles or so in a northwesterly (or southeasterly ...take your pick) direction and depending on who's doing the talking, encompasses part of Malapais, Charleyboy (Black ) Mtn, Lost (Peters) Ridge, all the way down to the northern slopes of Music Mtn. Thats a big big area and there is lots of room for interpretation as to landmarks and trails.

What might be Charlyboy trail to someone might mean a different location entirely to someone else. And Charlyboy is hardly the only trail up there, the entire area is crisscrossed with trails, some old and unused, some used by hikers today..so Kocheras "Charleyboy trail" can almost be interepreted as anywhere up on the Mesa.
LDM
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Post by LDM »

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Ron
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Peralta battle wheredid it start?

Post by Ron »

I posted yesterday, but I do not see it here. Let me say again that I knew Kochera for 20 years and spent much time with him through the years. I can only say one more time, Kochera found the gold ore where he said he did, On Peter's Mesa, just off the trail. Where it came from , we may discuss for years to come , but in my possessiion , I have a written statement and a video , in which Kochera states where he found it. He did not lie or try to cover that fact up to me.
LDM
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Post by LDM »

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Peter
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Post by Peter »

While I enjoy talking Dutchman, there are some things I will not reveal on a public forum. This whole Kochera issue is not going to help anyone find the LDM, but in my opinion, is an interesting sidebar in the LDM tapestry.
Due to certain associations I have with certain folks I must remain mute
on this subject from here on out.......
LDM
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Post by LDM »

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señor x
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Post by señor x »

You'd always like to be able to pinpoint the exact site on a map, if for no other reason than curiosities sake. The first time the Kochera subject came up a few months back, I did some searching on the web for more scraps of information. I did find an old posting in the TreasureNet Forum archives where someone claimed that the Kochera's gold was found on the SE flank of Malipais Mtn. Of course, you have know idea whether the person who wrote that knew what he was talking about, but I think I've seen postings by the same person on this forum.
Ron
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Peralta battle, where was it?

Post by Ron »

I agree , the Kochera story and the ore has great significance to maybe finding the mine. If for no other reason, than the matching of the ore , that has been done , at least should tell any doubters of the mine being in the Superstitions, that this is the home of the mine and nowhere else. Anymore than that I don't know if it will help. Before Peter's post, where he wanted to hold the "where"on the trail a secret, I would of had no problem in pin pointing it on a map for anyone, but out of Peter's wishes I will not. I personally don't feel it should be a secret, so it's up to Peter. How's that for passing the buck? All the conjectures made as to how the saddlebags ended up there are great food for thought. ( I'm still digesting.)
Peter
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Post by Peter »

Hi Ron,

If you want to point out where you believe Kochera found his saddlebags, go right ahead...doesnt matter to me. Like I said before, I do not beleive the location will help anyone find the mine, and I also do not beleive anyone will get any closer to finding it if everyones "secrets" were revealed. I'd be interested to see if your location and mine matched up, from your description of the location I sort of doubt it...but who knows.

P
Ron
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Peralta battle where did it start?

Post by Ron »

Peter,

What Kochera told me and showed on a map, was he found it on top of Peter's Mesa, just off the trail, west of Charlebois. Of course a map would be better to show.
LDMFAN
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What Became Of Kochera's Found Gold?

Post by LDMFAN »

If this story is true, what became of this found ore? Has anyone who knew Kochera actually seen it? If so, were they able to photograph it?

I read in one of the posts about comparing it to Jacob's gold. Has anyone done this and what were the results? (This would also mean that in order to perform this comparison, one would have to know who owns the Dutchman's gold and get their permission to use it or get ahold of the sample reports).
Peter
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Post by Peter »

LDMFAN

You might want to get a copy of Tom Glover's first book. There is an entire chapter in there on ore analysis...and answers your questions better
than my poor powers of elucidation (did I spell that right?) can.

I personally have seen some samples of ore taken out of the mountains.
Some are as different as night and day...and some obviously come from either the same or a very similar source.
Joe Ribaudo
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Elucidation

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,
Spelling is good, estimate of powers poor.
Joe :)
Joe Ribaudo
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Silly secret society/ludicrous

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter wrote:Whatever ore was found by Haywoods group was placed in that location where Haywood found it for a reason...and that reason had nothing to do with storing it for a rainy day, but involved cultural and deep religous significance. The reason Haywood fled AZ was because he knew he crossed the line and that certain traditionalist Apache would consider him and his group the worst sort of traitors. Rather than end up as ant bait, Haywood left for parts unknown...only to find that while he might be able to hide from the physical guardians of the site, the spiritual guardians had a long and deadly reach.
Peter,
Glad to see this topic come up again. I had not read your comments before today.
After your somewhat emotional denial of the existence of the Black Legion, or any secret society of Apache, I am confused by the above statement. Had you only stated that you did not think they existed, it would have been better. Many people have ended up as "ant bait" in the Superstitions, and you seem to feel that at least one person rightfully feared that end would be provided by the Apache. "...physical guardians of the site" sounds very much like the "silly secret society". How does that jibe with "The thought that an Apache would join something such as the BL and 'sign up' to pull guard duty is silly."? Were white eyes exempt from becoming "ant bait" by these "physical guardians"? Who were the spiritual guardians, Skinwalkers? I know, wrong Indians. Just who were those guys in black that followed us? Where did they come from? "...flying discs"? :lol:
Joe
Roger
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The Trail of Golden Clues

Post by Roger »

Helen Corbin's book, The Bible on the LDM, William Edward's journal tells of his finding the Mexican skeletons plus some gold along a route he backtrailed from the Massacre Site to Marsh Valley. He then followed a trail from Marsh Valley up Squaw Canyon onto Peters Mesa (Northern end) where he found an old arrastra. Ron indicated above that Kochera's gold was found on Peters Mesa west of Charlebois.

This trail of evidence would indicate that the Mexican/Apache battle was started at least up on Peters Mesa and possible further East as the Mexicans were known to have a camp at Kane/Indian Springs at the South side of Tortillia. Also, Whoolie Bacon was known to have found old trails, Mexican artifacts, and some gold to the West of his ranch at Tortilla Well.

Again, the question is: Where did the Mexican/Apache battle start?

On page 208 of Glover's book, The LDM Part 1, it indicates that Indians told Whoolie that the fight started with a "southern group" and that a few escaped to notify the "northern group" camped at Indian Springs. This group took their mules up on Tortilla, came back down loaded with rocks, and then escaped.

It has been fairly well documented through several individuals being told by Indians, that the Apache covered several mines - some suspicioned to be on Bluff Springs Mtn and possibly on Peters Mesa. Was the Mexican mine on Tortilla Mtn one they covered or the one "high up in a deep canyon' that was left uncovered due to no one likely to find it????????????

Roger
Peter
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Post by Peter »

Roger,

Your analysis of the various clues pertaining to the Peralta Fight are pretty much on the mark, as I understand things.

I beleive the fighting started in the interior of the mountains...whether this means Peters Mesa or the Tortilla area is anybody's guess...probably the latter. I believe the Mexican's had a fairly substantial work camp up on Peter's Mesa near what is known as the "hairpin" above Charlebois. This area was (and still is) fairly open ground and a couple of sentries placed on nearby peaks (such as Black Mountain and Peter's Dome) can see a great deal of the surrounding country. Any group of workers in this vicinity
would have the benefit of nearby water (potholes in Gasslers Wash, Roberts Canyon and down in Peter's Canyon) in any but the driest season.
In addition, while I do not believe it would be a great place to defend ones self from a hostile force...I DO believe that it would be a great place to RETREAT FROM. The workers could easily retreat down to Charlebois, Labarge (via Squaw), Peters etc.... This location made egress quick and easy.

Ron believes that John Kochera found his saddlebag full of ore in this immediate vicinity. The fact that this area was probably an important
transportation hub linking the main camps in LaBarge with the mines to the east adds weight to Ron's belief. In addition the arrastra that you mention also exists nearby (not on the Northern end of Peter's Mesa).

Now the question begs...just why did the Mexicans use this area as one of their main work camps? Was it because there were mines nearby? Or was it because this area served as a main work camp and way station to mines that were further east? I do not know the answer. Walter Gassler believed there was a mine located near a tree grove on Peter's Dome.
Robert Jacobs spent years blowing up a good part of Squaw Canyon and Malapais Mtn. Chuck Kenworthy searched the Black Mt area. Many , many searchers have looked Peter's Mesa over. I know of one search that involved a yard by yard grid search of the entire area (it took YEARS).
As far as I know no one has found the LDM up there.

My own personal belief is that the mine lies further east....but who knows.
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Signs

Post by Rosebud »

A thought on the activities reported on Peters Mesa – arrastra, trails, camp, Kochera ore and such. It seems pretty well agreed that there was a large Mexican camp in the area of Marsh Valley to the northern end of the lower slopes of Bluff Springs Mountain. Signs of significant activity are also found on Bluff Springs Mountain and on Black Top Mesa (including some treasure). Seems to me that common sense finds a common denominator to all three of these places; they are all high ground surrounding the Marsh Valley area.

Would not miners deep in Apache country want to occupy the high ground around their main camp? And would they not want to use to the maximum the resources of the surrounding high ground? Keep horses and mules where there was the best protection (Bluff Springs and Black Top Mesa), process ore where there was either water for an arrastra (junction of East and West Boulder Canyon) or where they could pound the ore on bedrock with good trails and acces (Peter’s Mesa). Would they not have camps in these places? Would they not leave behind “sign” – such as artifacts, carvings, debris, etc.? Would they not prospect these areas they were occupying, digging prospect holes where they thought it looked promising?

Then 50 to 100 plus years latter would not lost mine hunters find prospect holes (which can look just like mines), artifacts, old tools, sandals, carvings, horse hardware, a spur here, a buckle there, etc. on these three mountains? And having found these things would not lost mine hunters be sure they were on to something “big”? Does all this mean the mine is in this area? Or, that this area was their stronghold and main base due to water and game? It has always struck me that when most reliable clues are plotted all they do is surround the Marsh Valley area.

Indian clues point up Peters Canyon, onto Bluff Springs Mountain, onto Peters Mesa, up La Barge Canyon, to Tortilla Mountain, and I think (?) to Black Top Mesa. Not all, but most radiate out from Marsh Valley. The trouble with Indian clues is did Indians know the difference between prospect holes and working mines?
Roger
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Arrastra's in the Supers - Where???

Post by Roger »

Peter, you indicate that the arrastra that was up on Peters Mesa is not on the North end, but closer to the trail up out of Charlebois. Is this correct?

Just how many arrastras have been found in the Supers??? I can list four that are fairly well known:

1. Morman Flats - now covered by the lake.
2. Up on Peters Mesa
3. At the junction of East and West Boulder canyon as Brownie Holmes describes in his manuscript.
4. Brownie also describes a 30 inch diameter hole in solid rock above the big cave in Peters Canyon that he thought was used to crush ore.

I also vaguely recall reading of one somewhere further East either near on on Superstition mountain.

Any comments from the forum on this???

Roger
Peter
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Post by Peter »

Roger,

The arrastra is in the vicinity of the old Mexican work camp on Peter's Mesa. It is very close to the hairpin turn where the trail from Charlebois turns east to Peters Canyon.

This particular arrastra is located in an ideal place....on an almost bare area that has been worn down to the bedrock. The post-hole is still visible today and one can also discern a faint ring of worn rock where the drag-stone must have been worked.
Peter
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Post by Peter »

Rosebud,

I think you will find that most clues emanating from Amerindian sources
point to "something" of significance in an area east of Labarge Canyon.
Whether this is a mine, cache or holy place is debatable.
Rosebud
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Amerindian "clues"

Post by Rosebud »

Peter wrote:

Rosebud,

"I think you will find that most clues emanating from Amerindian sources
point to "something" of significance in an area east of La Barge Canyon.
Whether this is a mine, cache or holy place is debatable."

Perhaps. However, Peter, there are also Amerindian clues, strong ones that refer to Bluff Springs Mountain, and Coffee Flat too. All of us get our favorite ideas in this game and can get a bit single minded about how "right" we are --- and wonder to ourselves how others could have missed it.

I fully agree that there are a number of Amerindian clues that refer to something east of La Barge Canyon. But, east of La Barge is big country. These clues -- if not stretched to fit a preconceived idea -- point to Geronimo Head, Malipais, Peters Mesa and Tortilla Mountain. Then there is the question of even if a given Amerindian clue is true and accurate what does it point to? It could be a mine, and it could just as easily be a dry prospect. Or, as you note it could be something else entirely.

Then there are the clues that refer to something west or south of La Barge.
Roger
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Peralta Mines in the Supers

Post by Roger »

There were Peralta or Mexican/Spanish mines in several locations in the Supers and the Apaches covered roughly 8 of them according to stories they have shared with the white man. They covered several mines on Bluff Springs Mtn plus several more that were located to the north of Bluff Springs Mtn. The reason there was an arrastra in East Boulder Canyon several hundred yards south of its junction with West Boulder Canyon was to mill the ore for these southern set of mines. The arrastra up on Peters Mesa was to mill the gold from possibly a mine in that immediate area plus some others further to the East. The arrastras at Morman Flats handled the ore from the mines up on the Western slopes of Four Peaks.

Arrastras were fairly easy to construct and could be placed anywhere so long as water did not have to be hauled much of a distance. For this reason, they would have been placed as close as possible to the mines to avoid having to haul the ore long distances that consumed time, manpower and animal-power. The Mexicans/Spanish were very efficient miners and knew how to get the work done as fast as possible as they only worked in the mountains in the winter months.

This is my estimate of what the story was around the arrastras in the Supers.

Roger
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Post by Wiz »

Good assessment, Roger, it all makes sense. But there is no reliable source of water for an arrastra up on Peter's Mesa. You need to rely on potholes of water collected from rains. I wouldn't consider the big waterhole in Peter's Canyon to be "convenient".
If there was an arrastra operating up there, it would have had to be during a relatively wet period. I wonder if this information could be used to narrow the time period in which it was operational?
Roger
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Where to Build an Arrastra

Post by Roger »

Wiz: There are several variables in where to place an arrastra. Peter notes that the one up on Peters Mesa is in an excellent location where the ground is bare to bedrock and the drag could grind against it instead of having a rock lined floor in the arrastra that has a lot of cracks/crevices that make cleanup difficult. Also, if there was a pit mine on top of Peters Mesa, this would mean that the ore would only be hauled a short distance to the arrastra. It would be easier to haul the water up from Marsh Valley/Charlebois Spring as the amount of water to be hauled is significantly less than the amount of ore that would have to be hauled to the arrastra. One other note on location, the Supers get very cold in the winter and the valleys are the coldest location to camp. Bark reported the fire beds up on the East side of Black Mountain and this is evidence that they camped on the top of the mesa and used the firebeds to stay warm at night.

There could be a lot of explainations to this, but this is one.

Roger
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