Anyone notice...?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Post Reply
Wiz
Expert
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 2:55 am

Anyone notice...?

Post by Wiz »

Has anyone noticed how this forum has nose-dived since registration has become mandatory? I haven't seen any of the informative postings that used to come up when it was completely open. Azmula, Matt, Earl, the guys who really had some things to say, all are silent now.
This is, of course, to be expected. Dutch hunters are generally secretive by nature, and don't want to be tracked and monitored.
I imagine it became necessary to register because of all the yahoos that were making stupid postings. Restrictions imposed on everyone due to the irresponsible actions of a few morons.

Hmmm... sounds familiar somehow.
S.C.
Part Timer
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon May 20, 2002 10:45 am

Registration

Post by S.C. »

Yes. The lack of activity is noticiable. But, I think that registration is not necessarily the reason. Many of us are "registered" - but are not our "secret identities" hidden anyway? (Feels like being Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent...)

But, you are right, Dutch hunters are secretive. And for good reason. Despite everything, I am still surprised at what has been discussed on this forum "in the open." Hopefully things will pick up.
Wiz
Expert
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 2:55 am

Post by Wiz »

S.C.,
Your identity is not secret at all. These guys are tracking IP addresses (read the terms of membership) and can find out who and where you are any time they want. Dutch hunters prefer anonymity for a reason: they like to talk about things up to a point, but don't want anyone camping on their doorstep to find out what else they may know.
S.C.
Part Timer
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon May 20, 2002 10:45 am

Secrecy

Post by S.C. »

True.... Good point... Secrecy is relative. I do not mind that the web administrator has my IP address and email, etc. To most readers who check out the forum we are still "hiding" behind "nicks." While it does not bother me, I can see how it could bother others.
count
Expert
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm

Post by count »

Registration is required so that the readers and posters can follow the thread of a topic. It becomes difficult to follow a thread if you cant associate a message with an author.

The registration does not require you to use your real name, phone, etc.,. They can all be false. It does require a real email address that you have access to so that someone else cannot steal your nick and pretend to be you. You can always use a free anon webmail address instead of the one provided by your isp.

As far as ip tracking goes it makes no difference if your register or not. ALL websites log your ip when you visit them. Its the nature of the net. A website cant send you its content if it dosent know what ip to send it to. No matter what you do or where you go on the net your ip is known.

This site does not examine its log file to see who you are nor does it use spyware. For those of you who want to check if your computer had spyware installed without your knowledge you can download this freeware program to search for and delete spyware on your hard drive. http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... ds/aaw.exe The file name is aae.exe and the program name is Ad-Aware.

I am curious why someone would be worried about their ip being known here. If you reveal a clue or even the actual location of the LDM in this forum what difference does it make if your ip is known or not known? Entering your ip number into a GPS wont lead to the LDM. On the other hand, following the clues you freely write here may help someone find the mine. Reading the clues others write may help you find the mine. If anyone thinks an ip will help them find the mine....my ip is 68.98.16.1. If it leads you to the mine all I ask for is a souvenier nugget. :wink:
Peter
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun May 19, 2002 7:47 am

Post by Peter »

You make and excellent point , Count.

While I understand the secrecy issue is important to Dutch Hunters how many folks do you think are going to go mounting an expedition based on what someone reads in a forum..even if the author is absolutely certain of his information and clues (and we ALL are certain of our won info aren't we? lol)...one would have to have their head examined if they went looking for a lost mine based on clues one discerned from a forum such as this.

If a knowledgeable poster said he was certain the LDM was on Music Mountain, how many people would be booking airfare to AZ to search on that mountain? Not too many I would wager.

While searching for the mine is a interesting and entertaining past time, there is a reason the mine hasnt been found for the last 115 years... it has most likely been covered up by folks who knew what they were doing,
is in a remote rough area, and there are other complications associated with the mine area.

Will it ever be found? I doubt it.
nicoh
Greenhorn
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm
Location: Tempe
Contact:

Post by nicoh »

Thanks for offering the Spyware program, Count!
On the topic, I've been a multimedia guy and PC tech for about 10 years, and have never been hacked, and only IP sniffed a few times. No one's gotten into my system. I say this because the whole security breach issue is analagous to someone coming to the front door of your house. This takes a bit of effort to find where you live, and then a WHOLE LOT more to see what's inside your house by merely standing outside the front door.
Very few can and will.
So. The relative handful of "technoverts" out there that have the capability to IP sniff, and the even fewer that have the resources to actually see what's on your system is vastly overstated.
Throw in the notion that to most people in mainstream culture (heh), we're all just a bunch of fringe-eccentrics chasing our tails, and the point of hiding/protecting IP's becomes moot!
My two pesos, in the hopes this relieves some anxiety.
nick
Wiz
Expert
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 2:55 am

Post by Wiz »

I suspect that none of the above will lure any of the guys I mentioned back to this forum. I don't recall anyone having a problem following any threads in the prior forum. Just the idea of being denied access unless we identify ourselves is enough to raise the hackles of many people. This is the sort of thing Ron was complaining about in another posting.

Nicoh, I think you're kidding yourself that very few people can access your system. This may be true of your system, but not most. There are teenaged kids everywhere you look who live for that sort of thing. All the assurances in the world of security and privacy are meaningless when these are breached. Then what? Someone says "oops, sorry, guess I was wrong".

But kids are not the primary concern. I am not a PC tech, but I would bet that there is a way to equate an IP address to a physical address. Then you DO have someone standing outside your door if you've made a posting that catches their fancy. So, where is the motivation to make such a posting?

I am acting as a privacy advocate here. I have no secrets that would entice a crazed Dutch hunter to seek out my address. But I'm sure my feelings on this are shared by many. The idea that we are being tracked and monitored, and potentially censored, rubs me the wrong way. I suppose I could be booted off this forum for these comments. Easy enough to do, since I am registered.

We'll see if I'm right or wrong about the knowledgable people discontinuing their posting.
Ron
Part Timer
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm

anyone notice?

Post by Ron »

I understand your concerns, but that I can assure you noone on this site is any further to the "right" , and I absolutely I'm not concerned with privacy issues here on this site . The very little that I know about the internet, could fill a thimble, but if you do fool with the web , you must consider the beast it is. I too hope the others join again, for their discussions are interesting and from mostly knowledgeable people. My advice is to buck up, listen to the count's and Nicoh's advice, and do what this site was intended to do, enjoy your self.
Fritzski
Greenhorn
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm
Location: Gilbert,AZ

Post by Fritzski »

Personally I have the utmost respect for the "old guard" - those well known Dutch Hunters such as Ron, Clay, Tom, Gregg, Jim Hatt and also the host of other authors on the subject. They willingly sacrificed their anonimity to promote the legend by writing books/articles and giving presentations.

Let's face it folks, after over a hundred and fifteen years of looking, if anyone takes this search more seriously than a "passionate hobby", they need a reality check. The real treasure lies in the rich legends and characters surrounding the Superstition Mountains and I fear once the generation now running the SMHS is gone, the legend may slowly die on the vine. Secrecy won't help a bit.

There seems to be an intrinsic fear of the pervasiveness of the internet that keeps folks paranoid. It is my guess that this site is regularily visited by some of the folks I mentioned above who have no problem putting their name right on a book, but will use a cryptic screen name on this site. Has Tom or Clay ever read or contributed to this forum? I'll bet they have, but I couldn't know for sure. I know Ron and Jim have and that is such a great benefit to us, and the legend, to tap into their accumulated knowledge on the subject.

I know there are those that will disagree, but I believe there is much more to be gained for the Dutch Hunter by sharing on an open forum and nurturing a legend so that it will last the test of time. As Peter mentioned above, I seriously doubt people are waiting to bushwhack you over anything mentioned here and has probably been mentioned a hundred times before. As an example, Ron has publicly stated that he thinks he may have found the mine and unless I'm mistaken he has never felt the need to post armed guards around the clock even though its general location is fairly common knowlege.
Wiz
Expert
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 2:55 am

Post by Wiz »

Fritzski,
I agree that a reality check is in order.
All throughout the last century, people have been searching for gold in the Superstitions. They have feuded, killed one another, and committed any number of acts of depravity (and, I'll wager, heroism) to protect themselves and their enterprises. Why? Because there is gold out there. This is not conjecture, speculation, or faith, but solid fact. I'm not at liberty to say how I know, but I do. This puts it beyond the realm of "passionate hobby" for many people. I don't think the legend will be dying any time soon, and secrecy has always been a part of it. One hundred and fifteen years isn't really that long, especially considering the terrain involved. If you recall the A&E video, Clay Worst says he's always happy to discuss the mountains and the legend, "...but don't ask me where I think it is, because I wouldn't tell you". Bingo. That about sums things up.

Of those who have put their names on books, not one that I can think of has written a "what I know and where it is" book. Tom Kollenborn knows plenty, but his books are all works on history and local color. To my knowledge, neither Clay Worst nor Greg Davis have ever published books, although either one of them could write a doozy if he wanted to. And, I don't believe Ron has ever said he has found the LDM. He found a cache, which promises to hold significant artifacts. But even if he came upon the LDM complete with "Jacob Waltz slept here" written on the wall, I doubt he would ever publicize the fact. He is, after all, a businessman whose livlihood depends in large part on the romance and mystery of the Superstitions.

I agree that no one is waiting to bushwhack you over what is said here. That's because no one is saying anything really significant. But I suspect you are new to Dutch hunting. You're mistaken if you think there are no bushwhackers out there. I also agree that open discussion on this forum would benefit all of us. But I don't believe that's likely to happen now.

Who knows, though, maybe I'm completely wrong!
Fritzski
Greenhorn
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm
Location: Gilbert,AZ

Post by Fritzski »

Very good points Wiz.

I wouldn't ever expect anyone to overtly share their individual details on where they might be looking for the mine, my point was that anonimity doesn't help the site or the legend. Ron, Tom, and Clay wouldn't be the celebs they are or the ambassadors to the legend, had they chose to remain anonymous.

I went to both of Ron's presentations this past season and the name was "Opening the Lost Dutchman" and it was promoted on the brochure as such with side note that he was the first ever to receive the treasure trove permit to do so.

I am indeed new to Dutch hunting and am not a "hunter", but an avid hiker with a keen interest in all the history involving the Superstition Mountains. I am a very active moderator on HikeArizona.com and with nearly 2000 registered members there has never been even a mention of trouble on the Superstition trails in recent years. Many of us have run across some whackos out there, but never encountered the slightest problem. This doesn't mean I'm saying it couldn't happen. We also took a pole one time and nobody could give a personal account of a hiker being bitten by a snake out there - but we all know it could happen any time.
Wiz
Expert
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 2:55 am

Post by Wiz »

My apologies, I didn't know about Ron's presentations and brochure. I guess we'll see if the result lives up to the promotion!
Post Reply