THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
azmula
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THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by azmula »

All,
I am azmula. That is the only name I publish openly because my name is my business and is not necessary to qualify the accuracy of my articles or posts. I don’t care whether you believe my comments or not. A note about my character, I do not lie, I do not make comments that I cannot back up and I do not engage in negative discussions.
I have not posted here in a long time because the way I treat others is the way I want to be treated. There has been a lack of professional courtesy by some who post here.
A summary of my article (part 1) can be boiled down to two stone maps being genuine and one fake that was partially created from the two genuine maps. Only a small number of the total the emails were published with the article. My sources did not want their identities exposed because in the past they were harassed by individuals wanting information about Travis.
If there is interest by SMHS Journal, the plan for article (part 2) will include the discovery of the source of the stone material, when they were carved, who carved them, where they were carved, and possibly why. I am gathering the final source documentation now and I plan to publish the sources since there are some here who do not want to do their own primary investigations.
I hope this does not offend anyone yet enlightens others a little more about the stone maps.

azmula
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Azmula,

You are a little behind the times here. I have said many times, and for many years, that I believed the Horse/Priest stone was not legitimate. Welcome to the real world.

It may be that how you remember what took place is correct, but you asked for the members to critique your article on the Stone Maps. I did that, and questioned your statements on HISTORICAL FACTS! Perhaps I did bruise your ego in the manner of my questions. Fact is, you had plenty of people who were more than willing to stroke your ego.

My questions were respectfully asked, and you are the one who was offensive. My posts are still on the Forum, while you, Peter and Kraig decided to delete yours. It was all rather childish.

I have been asked for your real name a number of times, so there are people out there who care about it. I'm not one of them. People who like to make things up as they go along, often won't put their names to their posts.

In the past, you HAVE "engaged in negative discussions". I have been the recipient of your
unreasonable ire for years......Just get over it!

On the other hand, I do look forward to your upcoming articles on the Stone Maps. :)

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Azmula,

"My questions were respectfully asked, and you are the one who was offensive. My posts are still on the Forum, while you, Peter and Kraig decided to delete yours. It was all rather childish."

My mistake, as you did not delete all of your posts in the Stone Map topic.

You started doing that here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... &start=120

For anyone interested in how Azmula got started on this loco vendeta, you can read most of the conversation, starting at page 1 in the above topic. Believe there is a lot of good information in that string.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
azmula
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by azmula »

Does anyone want to discuss the stone maps with questions or comments?

azmula
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Azmula,

As always, I am interested in anything you have to say concerning the Stone Maps. Once again, you have asked for questions or comments. Needless to say, I'm a little snake-bit on
asking you anything about your research. Despite that, would you be interested in discussing
any further information you have picked up in the last nine-years concerning Father Rojas'
possible involvement with the Stone Maps or the Superstition Mountains?

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Azmula:

I would also be interested in hearing your thoughts and theories,although they may differ from my own regarding the Stone Maps.I will make no demands for sources,knowing that some need to be kept confidential for good reason.I may however,question the validity of your conclusions from time to time if I see reason to disagree.Hopefully,you will not find my questions insulting in any way,for they are not meant to be.
Perhaps a discussion,beginning at the end of the trail and working backwards,would be easier to manage.

What do you believe,based on your own findings,was intended to be found at the end of the trail ?

Regards:SH.
azmula
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by azmula »

SH,
Thank you for your comments and question.

I believe that there is no trail identified on the maps but there is a location where all of the gold, silver, and church vestments were cached prior to the Expulsion in 1767.

Take care,
azmula
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Azmula:

Although I do disagree with your conclusions regarding the H/P Stone,I will certainly concede that what has long been assumed to be a trail...the dotted line...may in fact not be a "trail" at all.I have several reasons both theoretical and practical for this more recent line of reasoning.
As to who the cache,or caches (as I believe there is more than one) once belonged to...I have little interest in further debate.If the Jesuits (or any other organized group) wish to claim ownership of what may be "found" in the future,it will be they..not I..who will have to provide irrefutable proof of claim.
Personally,I suspect a diverse and corrupt group of 18th century officials and business men as those primarily responsible.

Regards:SH.
azmula
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by azmula »

SH,

It is your privilege to disagree with the people who watched Travis carving the H/P maps. I agree with your “corrupt group” theory, except I believe the Jesuits were only doing what they were told to do by the Catholic Church popes of the period.

azmula
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

"I will make no demands for sources,knowing that some need to be kept confidential for good reason."

Been on this site for around ten years, and don't believe I have ever heard anyone "demand" a source. Along with others, I have asked for sources for historical "facts" but no one has to provide them.

If that puts someone's panties in a twist, they need to stick to historical documentation for their "stories".

On the other hand, I like a good fictional, historical novel as well as the next guy. Too many people in the Dutch Hunting community let their imaginations get the best of them.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:

I can imagine how uncomfortable you must be,wearing your "panties in a twist". :cry:
The comment was really meant for Azmula,but thanks for your input.

Regards:Wayne
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

That's pretty observant of you. Some people on these sites will talk about others without using their names. If that's the game, I like to stick to the rules. :)

Mine was meant for Azmula too. :roll:

Take care,

Joe
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Azmula:

That the Jesuits were among those involved,I have no doubt whatsoever.

I suspect they had also been,for some time,overstepping the authorization granted to them..."orders" if you will...by the Church of Rome,in matters both spiritual and commercial.
In doing so they may have become De-facto directors of virtually all commercial enterprise within their territory.It may be,that their organizational skills were relied on by colonists for banking and record keeping as well.
If so,then the threat of impending Expulsion of the Jesuits may have led to an arrangement between the Jesuits and all others who might have suffered confiscation and prosecution if caught with undeclared wealth.

These are just some thoughts as to why an amount so large would be cached in those mountains beyond the settled territory.

I do have trouble with what was said in the e-mails published in your article,as well as with the contradictory nature of some of the narrative shared by Gary Cundiff previously.I have expressed a belief that Travis did carve at least one duplicate set of stones,possibly altered in some details.I suggested use of a duplicator as one way of doing so,with a high degree of accuracy.The wood pistols mentioned in one of the e-mails may have been roughed out using a duplicator as well,IMO.

The e-mails give evidence of past family-wide deceit regarding the matter of "Peg Leg" as well.The differing accounts of Tumlinson's activities,given by family contacted more recently,and those of the friends and family given to McGee,Peck's partners,etc.,in the past,give me good reason to suspect continuing deception on the part of Tumlinson's descendents.

Regards:SH.
azmula
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by azmula »

SH,

I agree with your statement that the Jesuits were overstepping their mandate from the Spanish crown. The Jesuits took their direction from the pope first and the King of Spain second. They did as their pope ordered only.

The Jesuits were not always popular with the local land and mine owners since they controlled the native labor as they would see fit which did not fit into what the local land owners wished.
Jesuits have documented their acquisition of gold, silver, and church vestments that were not found at the time of the Expulsion. The King of Spain told the Jesuits not to travel beyond the Gila River. That is why they chose to cache their wealth north of the Gila.

I supplied the emails as a source of the basis for my assumptions about the stone maps. Those were not the only emails that I received and sometimes there will conflicting information from other sources. You will have to decide which data is applicable and which is not.

There was a second set duplicated by an artist in Sedona but not by Travis.

In my opinion if the family was going to be deceitful they would not have told me about the fact that as children they were told not to discuss the notorious members of the family.

Take care,
azmula
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Azmula,

"The Jesuits took their direction from the pope first and the King of Spain second. They did as their pope ordered only."

If that is so, who wrote and signed the order which was presented to the Jesuits for their expulsion.......The Pope, or the King?

Wayne,

Please feel free to answer that question, as that may be the only answer I will get.

Take care,

Joe
azmula
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by azmula »

SH,

When the Bourbon Kings took the thrones of Portugal, France, and Spain began the Expulsion of the Expulsion of the Jesuits from their lands. The Expulsion orders were signed by the sitting monarch of each country. They brought pressure on the sitting pope to dissolve the Jesuit Order. He resisted so the kings continued to pressure the church until the pope died and had to be replaced then they got a pope that would do as they demanded. The Jesuits were disbanded at that time. That is a synopsis of the Jesuit expulsion.

Take care, azmula
Somehiker
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:

The question you have asked relates to the circumstances of the expulsion,rather than the historical activities of the Jesuits as noted by Azmula.The answer to which we three all know.

For those who may not,these two references should give some explanation:
http://sites.maxwell.syr.edu/clag/yearb ... newson.pdf
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14096a.htm

The first source also describes the control over the native population exercised by the Jesuits,even to the point of forbidding any form of independent trade by their charges.

"Ultimately, however, their isolationist policies ran counter to those of the civil authorities and secular church who viewed the missionary orders' role as one of preparing native peoples for integration into colonial society."

Regards:Wayne
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

I missed copying the two quotes referring to the trade restrictions.
They should have appeared ahead of the quote in my last post,which was meant to show that the "Secular Church" ,and I presume the Pope as well,had some dispute with the way the Jesuits were operating.

From the chapter titled:"Mismanagement by the New Administration"

"Without exception all former Jesuit missions experienced economic decline. Most authors attribute this to the new
administration or the negligence of particular civil administrators. In fact, the economic organization inherited from the
Jesuits changed very little, although Indians in the missions were henceforth free to trade (Aranda 1908: 352)."

and:

"The right of Indians to trade directly with outside groups, which had not been permitted under Jesuit control, also had
detrimental effects (Navarro 1960a: 706)."


Regards:SH
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

"The first source also describes the control over the native population exercised by the Jesuits,even to the point of forbidding any form of independent trade by their charges."

As you noted, the right of the natives to independently trade was a mistake, the consequences of which the Jesuits had foreseen. The few exceptions on trade, enumerated by the king, were mostly ignored.......by everyone.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:

There are many today who subscribe to the same school of thought.
They call themselves "progressives".

Regards:Wayne
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

Can you explain what you mean by "same school of thought"?

Thanks,

Joe
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:

Google it... :idea:

From the study:

Structural Problems
Among the factors that hastened the decline of the missions after the expulsion were structural problems inherited from
the Jesuit system. Liberal criticism of the eighteenth century blamed the Jesuits for having imposed (where feasible) a
paternalistic regime that did not allow individual development. Indeed, the Indians were kept in a state of "infancy"
because decision-making and management were exercised by the friars, whose segregation policy shielded them from
external influence. Nevertheless, those who succeeded the Jesuits often failed to integrate the Indians into colonial
society according to the economic principles of Liberalism, but maintained them in a state of "tutelage." This feature of
post-Jesuit administration stemmed from doubts about the capacity of the Indians to live an independent existence


Regards:Wayne
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Mike McChesney
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Mike McChesney »

The Jesuit Order was suppressed for (primarily) one of two possibilities:

1. As some would have us believe that the Jesuits were set up as bad guys by those that didn't like the power, influence, and wealth they had accrued.

2. ..........and this is the real reason, as Azmula stated, the Bourbon Kings brought with them many French ideals and customs. One of the most egregious (in the eyes of the Jesuits anyway), were the principles of The Enlightened Movement. This movement sought to bring the Church into more modern times. Make it more palatable for the masses. It sought to move away from the overly harsh and strict Inquisitions.

The Jesuits saw this as a watered down form of Catholicism that would weaken the Church. The Jesuits favored the Inquisitions with most of the power residing with the Church and not the Crown.

The Jesuit Order was involved in many intrigues around the world, which got them kicked out of almost everywhere they maintained a presence. In Portugal, they were suspected to have fomented the Guarani Indian rebellion, and then they had a part in the attempted assassination of the King. In France, they fought tooth and nail against the Enlightenment. Part of their fight was sedition to the crown. The French Court used a 2 million livre debt the Jesuits had on Martinique to attack them in France. In Spain, the Jesuits again used sedition to fight Charles III's advances towards The Enlightenment. They trash talked the King, and were later found to have fomented the Spanish Rebellions of 1766. King Charles arrest document does not give any specifics as to why they were being suppressed, but when he met with the French Ambassador (the Marquis d"Ossun), he told him why. Then in a letter to the French Court, the Marquis explained:
He swore that he had no personal feelings against the Jesuits, and until the most recent plot, had declined on several occasions to adopt counsels adverse to their interests. He had in this way disregarded the warnings of faithful servants, who had told him how, since 1759 the Religious had not ceased to revile his Government, defame his character, and even to question the sincerity of his religious faith; and had replied (to these faithful servants) that he believed them to be prejudiced and misinformed. The insurrection of 1766 had, however, opened his eyes, for he was certain that the Jesuits had fomented it, and had proofs that it was so, since several members of the Society had been arrested while distributing money to groups (of rioters).
Everything else is ancillary. All the mining, wealth, and influence was not enough to cause a general suppression of the order. It was a combination their anti-enlightenment stance, and their intrigues that got them canned.

Mike
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Mike and Joe:
While further exchanges of documentation and our opinions as to the reasons for the Jesuit expulsion may be interesting,it's not likely to add much to the topic at hand.I would much prefer to hear more of what Azmula,the author has to say about his findings,as revealed in the article.

Azmula:
The testimony given by family members clearly indicates that Travis carved all of the stones in the front yard of his sister's home in Cuero,not just the H/P stone.
How does this affect your own opinion of the stones being found in Arispe,then later being stolen from a courier ?

Regards:SH.
azmula
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by azmula »

Hello SH,

Thank you for the question. If you read all of the emails you would interpret the facts as only the cream colored stone being seen carved by Travis. Travis liked using images like the horse and priest which have little to do with where the stone maps lead (personal opinion). Check the chimney carving photos as examples. Difference in stone material of H/P and red stones, carving techniques of H/P and red stones, and differences in content.
My interpretation of the facts have not changed from original concepts. I have found additional information which confirms my interpretation of the facts. I will make that additional information known in part two of my article in the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journal. I will document source of stone material, stone maps part of church floor, confirm which church floor, and time line of floor.

Take care,
azmula
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