THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Somehiker wrote

Roy or anyone:

If a recognizable series of features...markings/symbols,closely matching this series on the lower trail map,for example...and in the same order...what might be the meaning ?
Would each have it's own translation,or if very closely spaced,would they read like a sentence ?

I would be speculating entirely, but as in your example, the four could refer to the four stations of the holy cross, the eight, perhaps the covenant with God;

"The historic Christian Church has traditionally associated the Number 8 with the entrance into the Covenant of God. This understanding comes from God Himself who commanded Circumcision - the Sign of the Covenant - to be performed on the Eighth Day."

To go outside the Christian box, there are eight ruling Buddhist deities and four pillars of Destiny and so on. The cross or plus sign along with the rest of the symbols of the stones do not support any such Asiatic religious theory, just an example. Who ever made the stones, had in mind Catholic-Christian meanings, so that should be the most productive angle in my opinion which is entirely a guess.

Just another thought here, but being from Appalachia a stone with a hole in it has a special meaning too, at least for those of a superstitious bent, it is a 'holey stone' and considered a tool for witches or as a protection against witchcraft; also called a hag stone, some of the old folks in the little homesteads would nail one over the door or over the hearth, and it can't be a hole drilled or chiseled out by man, has to be a natural stone from a creek. Considering the penchant of Jesuits for spells and such, it might not be such a far stretch.

I don't think it would read as a sentence, not like I-C-U (example) but as a coded key to locate a treasure vault - which could hold a long-dead but highly honored priest as the "treasure" and thus you would know from the four stations of the cross, then the covenant exactly how to pinpoint the entrance.

Thanks for sharing the photos, looks like a very interesting trail you have found and I hope you will keep us posted as to what turns up at the end! Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy

[don]

Not pretending I know anything more than anyone else (and probabley a great deal less) about these stone maps.But my question would be,based on the balance of probabilities,which came first ,the chicken or the egg? ..in my opinion,for what its worth, the stone maps tale seems more than a little contrived.I cant see why someone would go to the trouble of creating these stone monstrosities,burying them where they might never be found,in order to keep the mines location a secret to all but a chosen few, who one presumes would have had yet another map showing the location of the stone maps themselves etc etc etc etc.It really makes no sense,even disregarding the cryptic nature of the maps themselves. Is it possible they could be yet another of Barry Storms creations?

[Somehiker]

Why would Barry Storm,or even Travis Tumlinson create such a set of maps....then fail to make them public for money or fame.
Why,when they were finally publicized by Clarence Mitchell along with the account of his treasure hunt in Life Magazine,almost twenty years later,did not one acquaintance,friend or Tumlinson family member step forward to correct the story.
Another chance to do so arose when the Moel/SEC litigation became public,and yet still no one came forward.
Now that don't make sense to me.
But then again,neither do most monday morning quarterbacks make sense to me either.

Regards:SH.

[Oroblanco]

Don wrote

Not pretending I know anything more than anyone else (and probabley a great deal less) about these stone maps.But my question would be,based on the balance of probabilities,which came first ,the chicken or the egg? ..in my opinion,for what its worth, the stone maps tale seems more than a little contrived.I cant see why someone would go to the trouble of creating these stone monstrosities,burying them where they might never be found,in order to keep the mines location a secret to all but a chosen few, who one presumes would have had yet another map showing the location of the stone maps themselves etc etc etc etc.It really makes no sense,even disregarding the cryptic nature of the maps themselves. Is it possible they could be yet another of Barry Storms creations?

Like you, I too once strongly suspected Storm of having created the stone maps, based on his record of having made fake Spanish "heiroglyphs" in the Superstitions which he never admitted to having done. Recent research by Garry and others have turned up evidence that fairly well absolves Barry but points to Tumlinson as the originator. More in a moment;

Somehiker wrote

Why would Barry Storm,or even Travis Tumlinson create such a set of maps....then fail to make them public for money or fame.
Why,when they were finally publicized by Clarence Mitchell along with the account of his treasure hunt in Life Magazine,almost twenty years later,did not one acquaintance,friend or Tumlinson family member step forward to correct the story.
Another chance to do so arose when the Moel/SEC litigation became public,and yet still no one came forward.
Now that don't make sense to me.
But then again,neither do most monday morning quarterbacks make sense to me either.

Most immediately think that a fake is created solely to make money, when in some cases it is more in line of a "pious fraud"; just as there are gospels written in the name of famous holy men, who never saw the texts. They are created because the person creating them believes they OUGHT to exist, not with a purpose to make money nor to fool people and get laughs out of it, but because they think such things should exist and are simply filling a void.

As to why someone did not blow the whistle sooner, keep in mind that this subject is not one which attracted a great deal of world-wide attention even after the Life magazine article, the folks with an interest are mainly treasure hunters. Do other members of your family know the intricacies of the Superstitions that you do, or do they know the several versions of the Dutchman story? No of course not, they are interested in other things, even if the info has passed in front of them, it was not deemed too important. Can you say what is the proposed date in which the Copper Scroll was created? It has been on the national news, television specials were done on it, the evidence can be extrapolated from the scroll itself, but unless you have an interest in it, chances are you don't know that date because it is not too important to you. Likewise for speculating at why someone didn't announce to the world what they knew about the stone maps - unless it were important to them personally, why would they bother?

Regardless of who or whom made the stone maps, the matching signs and symbols found in the mountains certainly make for an interesting pursuit, and until someone finds what is at the end of that trail, we will never know what it leads to. There are many forms of treasure after all.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

[Somehiker]

Roy:

I am familiar with the history of the copper scroll,as well as that of the other dead sea scrolls.
But the known history and timeline of all of the carved stones,as opposed to unrelated native or spanish petroglyphs,found within the area by these various individuals makes the possibility of a "pious fraud" motive highly unlikely in my estimation.
However,if Tumlinson did carve the stones as a kind of pious fraud,what was he trying to prove in doing so ? Such frauds are generally intended to promote and validate some facet of religious history,but Tumlinson did not...as far as we know,attempt to use them for such a purpose.He did however, make several trips into the Superstitions in search of whatever it was that he evidently believed they might lead to.
That alone should be enough,for anyone who believes that Travis carved the originals himself,to acknowledge the Superstitions as the place to which the Stone Maps apply.

While only a few friends and family may be familiar with my reasons for repeated trips to Arizona,as some of Tumlinson's family would have as well while he was still alive,I can assure you that their integrity would not allow them to remain silent if similar circumstances were to arise.

Regards:SH.

[Oroblanco]

Somehiker wrote

I am familiar with the history of the copper scroll,as well as that of the other dead sea scrolls.
But the known history and timeline of all of the carved stones,as opposed to unrelated native or spanish petroglyphs,found within the area by these various individuals makes the possibility of a "pious fraud" motive highly unlikely in my estimation.
However,if Tumlinson did carve the stones as a kind of pious fraud,what was he trying to prove in doing so ? Such frauds are generally intended to promote and validate some facet of religious history,but Tumlinson did not...as far as we know,attempt to use them for such a purpose.He did however, make several trips into the Superstitions in search of whatever it was that he evidently believed they might lead to.
That alone should be enough,for anyone who believes that Travis carved the originals himself,to acknowledge the Superstitions as the place to which the Stone Maps apply.

While only a few friends and family may be familiar with my reasons for repeated trips to Arizona,as some of Tumlinson's family would have as well while he was still alive,I can assure you that their integrity would not allow them to remain silent if similar circumstances were to arise.

Regards:SH.

My use of that term "pious fraud" did not mean to imply some religious belief but rather that things can and are created in support of a belief, period. I do not know of a term that describes the practice of creating a false thing in support of a belief, other than 'pious fraud' which has been used over the centuries. Was Barry Storm trying to fulfill some religious belief when he carved his own markings in the Superstitions? No of course not. It is creating something to fill a perceived void, to make what the person thinks should exist, and attempt to get it as authentic as possible to what is believed to be authentic. There are other examples we could point to, like the Drake plate, and again no religious belief is involved; in that case it may have been an attempt to discredit a particular college professor rather like the Cardiff giant case but point is that people can and do create fake artifacts, texts and paintings etc for different motives, not always for profits or to fool people in a mean way.

We are speculating as to what motive(s) were behind the creation of the stone maps, and equally speculating as to what Tumlinson was doing in the Superstitions; none of us were with him at the time so far as I know, so we do not really know what he was doing there. Was he really using those maps to search? Who knows? Maybe he was up there creating symbols and markings to match those on his stone maps? I was not present so could not say. We can speculate as to why Tumlinson's relatives made no remark sooner, and we can speculate as to why they would claim he created them now. Perhaps they did not wish to discredit him or cast a shadow while his memory was fresh? Quien sabe?

Still quite far from convinced that the stone maps are supposed to apply to the Superstitions for that matter, for they can and will fit for several other areas. There are no markings on them that are undeniably referring to a Superstitions mountains key landmark. It is possible that the stone maps were created as a copy of a genuine treasure map on cloth, in which case it may well lead to some ancient Spanish or other treasure. The maps are generic enough that they will work in a number of different areas, including several not even in Arizona. I have to wonder, if they are indeed charts of the Superstitions, why is there no Needle, no Four Peaks, and what sort of landmark is the enclosure with a cross referring to? A mission church? If so, what mission church fits that map? Why are there so many dots, when they are not a days travel apart?

With all of the treasure maps that are in public circulation, there are problems; most prominent being that despite the fact they have been in public domain for years or even decades, the maps have failed to lead to treasures for those that have tried them. A true treasure map is not designed NOT to lead to the treasure, it is supposed to enable the possessor to relocate what is hidden. Even the Perfil Mapa has failed the ultimate test. Clearly, something is radically wrong with all of these maps. Anyone that decides to follow out one of these public treasure maps ought to be prepared (mentally and financially) for the possibility, things could prove false. Some have ended up in despair and destitution from the quest, even to the point of suicide.

Good luck and good hunting Somehiker and anyone reading, I hope you find the treasures that you seek - and that you will keep us posted with that trail you discovered!
Oroblanco

[Mike McChesney]

as far as the Tumlinson family's keeping mum until lately, I think you should reread Azmula's Article VERY carefully, and you may get an inkling of an idea.

It is also possible they were just tired of treasure hunters hounding them every time someone traced Travis' Roots. Think myself, Garry, and Larry were the only people to contact the family in the last 52 years (or so)? To come out and say Travis carved them is a very easy way to get people off your back and to lose interest.

Just a thought.

Mike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mike,

It also seems just possible that they told Garry the truth.

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

Or... as with so many "truths",they merely repeated what the had been told themselves.
Other relatives may have witnessed Travis in the process of making copies,and not being told otherwise,may have believed them to be originals.As Roy has explained,using his broadened definition of the term,these copies would then become the "pious fraud".

Could also be,that the family still has possession of the originals,which being genuinely old carvings of a historic nature,could be forfeit under antiquity law.Tumlinson's relatives,with treasure hunters within their family tree,would have known this. They might also know,from what was altered on the copies,and added to the back side of the Heart Stone,details which have not been mentioned in any publication or public discussion since the stones became known to the DH community.

As Mike has cautioned,ALL of the material collected by both Gary and Azmula must be read carefully.That means completely and in context with serious consideration given to where each piece of the story fits within the historical timeline .

Regards:SH.

[Cubfan64]

Not to mention that there is at least a 2nd part to Azmula's story that we have yet to see.

[Somehiker]

Paul:
And hopefully,we won't have to wait another three years to read it......hint
Although I may not agree with some of Az's conclusions,based on my own work,I still appreciate his sharing what he has collected and his thoughts on the matter.
So I am looking forward to the next chapter.


BTW:those papers have not been forgotten,just delayed by his other commitments.

Best:Wayne

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

"Could also be, that the family still has possession of the originals, which being genuinely old carvings of a historic nature, could be forfeit under antiquity law. Tumlinson's relatives, with treasure hunters within their family tree, would have known this."

Since there is no provenance, outside the families stories, I believe they would own any artifacts found on their property. If they made that claim, it's hard to see how they would lose the stones.

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

Joe:

True.
IF they HAD been found on their own property !
But to make such a claim this late in the game,on top of other recent claims by family members,does seem to suggest a trend toward historical revisionism.

What about all that previous,well documented testimony from those who knew Travis,and spent time with him while he had the stones? What about Richard Peck,who was indirectly responsible for most of what we know about the early history of the stones.....was he a fool ?

None of this will matter,unless something considered "treasure" is found by someone who claims to have used the maps and can prove it. But if they were to claim they found it by using an old cloth map and a willow branch,the stones will remain nothing more than a curiosity of little real value.


Regards:Wayne

[Cubfan64]

Joe:

True.
IF they HAD been found on their own property !
But to make such a claim this late in the game,on top of other recent claims by family members,does seem to suggest a trend toward historical revisionism.

What about all that previous,well documented testimony from those who knew Travis,and spent time with him while he had the stones? What about Richard Peck,who was indirectly responsible for most of what we know about the early history of the stones.....was he a fool ?

None of this will matter,unless something considered "treasure" is found by someone who claims to have used the maps and can prove it. But if they were to claim they found it by using an old cloth map and a willow branch,the stones will remain nothing more than a curiosity of little real value.


Regards:Wayne

Not to mention that the odds of anyone publicly displaying any "treasures" found are almost nil since all it would lead to is many years of litigation at best and confiscation at worst.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne & Paul,

I don't believe it would be as big a problem in Texas, as you have guessed. Property rights and antiquity laws are a little different in that state.

Take care,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

In the ever increasing litigious society we find ourselves in, I don't think it would matter whether one found a treasure on their own personal property or not - once you go public with it, there's bound to be SOMEONE SOMEWHERE who's going to try for a piece of that pie. The finder will pay $ to defend their claim, and if they don't have to do that, the government is going to want their cut.

It's just my opinion, but I believe most treasure finds that ever actually do occur, never make it to the public spotlight - it's just not worth the trouble imho. There are certainly exceptions, but I would guess they are few and far between.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Paul,

You are probably correct.

Hope all is well,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

You are probably correct.

Hope all is well,

Joe

Heck, I don't really know - it's just my opinion is all. Put it this way - if I put myself in the shoes of a finder, other than my spouse I would be hard pressed to find a reason to tell anyone else. I think what gets so many finder's in trouble is their inability to keep a secret - so many have that inherent "need" to announce it to everyone in order to get their 15 minutes of fame - I'm completely lacking in the gene that requires that .

With the above said, I'm also the sort of person who returns a found item whenever I can - I've returned numerous class rings I've found if I could track the owner and if I came across a wallet with $10,000 in cash and an ID, I would gladly track down the owner and return that.

I suppose it sounds as though I'm completely inconsistent (and I may very well be), but somehow I can see/feel the difference to myself.

[Somehiker]

Paul:

Well then.If you happen to stumble over an old gold bar somewhere out there,it musta fallen out of my pocket....ok ?

I agree with keeping quiet about finding "treasures".
But the hunt itself is what we all love to share,and the experiences which make us compadres.
After all,it's what brings us together,both here and out there.
It's also the reason for the Rendezvous.
With care,there is little risk that such a find will be taken.
Even by those who may believe in the stones.
And the hunt itself,for what's on the maps,could continue for many years.

Regards:Wayne

[Cubfan64]

Paul:

Well then.If you happen to stumble over an old gold bar somewhere out there,it musta fallen out of my pocket....ok ?

I agree with keeping quiet about finding "treasures".
But the hunt itself is what we all love to share,and the experiences which make us compadres.
After all,it's what brings us together,both here and out there.
It's also the reason for the Rendezvous.
With care,there is little risk that such a find will be taken.
Even by those who may believe in the stones.
And the hunt itself,for what's on the maps,could continue for many years.

Regards:Wayne

If I come across a gold bar with your name engraved on it, I'll let you know .

You're definitely correct about the hunt/search - that's the real draw for most of us I think.

[Somehiker]

"1. The Horse/Priest Stone. In the Peck Letters, one of Peck's Investigators that is talking with the guy that Travis T. showed the stones and spent a lot of time with him trying to figure them out, told the investigator when asked how many and what stones he saw, said there were three stones. The two map stones and a heart shaped stone that fit in one of the maps. The investigator asked him about another stone with a horse on it, and was told in no uncertain terms that he never saw that stone."

The information above is found within the pages of the letter from Mel Brower to Richard Peck,dated Apr.1/2,1965.
Brower has interviewed Robert Bair,who was identified as one of Travis's friends by an officer at the Hood River police dep't.
At first Bower finds Bair "on guard" and reluctant to talk about the Tumlinsons,and Bair also knows that the reason for Brower's visit is the Stones themselves (obviously the news has gotten around).
On questioning,Bair claims to know nothing of the H/P Stone,as Mike has pointed out in this post.But he has been shown the other stones,including the Heart Stone.It is Bair who,during this interview,claims that Travis told him about carving the six zeros on the back of the heart,"in order to throw anyone off who might see or steal the stones".

Personally,I think Bair was either lying to Brower in both cases,or repeating a lie about the Zeros,told to him by Travis.

Why would Travis add these to the back of the Heart Stone,OR try to throw anyone off,if he knew the stones to be fake ??

It's only my opinion,but I believe that Travis knew,from what was contained within documents left to him by his Grandfather or Father,exactly what those Zeros represented.

Travis' uncle Bob and Robert Shultz,both interviewed by Bert Love on the 10th and 12th of April 1965,were very familiar with all of the stones,including the H/P Stone,as were Pat and Ken Hainer,also friends of Travis.

This of course,does conflicts with what Azmula was told in one of his E-mails from the Tumlinson relative.They claim that the H/P stone never left Texas.

Pat Hainer is also the person who stated that Travis told them about Uncle Bob finding a Spanish pack saddle,musket,and other artifacts during a search conducted without Travis being present.This action may have led to the rift which left Uncle Bob an outsider to not only Travis and Aileen,but it seems,to the rest of the family as well.Uncle Bob did not know of Travis' death 5 yrs earlier.He first heard the news from Bert Love,during the interview.



"2. In the picture of the stone maps on the bumper of the car, you can clearly see that the heart insert had at some time been broken into four pieces and glued back together. In no version of Travis' Story does he ever say anything about breaking the heart insert or finding it broken. That picture was supposedly taken just hours after Travis found the stones. Stands to reason that the heart was broken before. Did someone glue it and rehide the stones? Not likely. I think it more likely that Travis dropped the heart as a kid and broke it at his grandfather's house."

Not sure if you've seen this,but with the crack across the lobe,it seems too resemble the Heart Stone.It's location is very good,relative to something on the Stone Maps,as well.
That is only according to what I have been working on,of course.





The circled area also has another heart very similar to what has been added to the Priest Stone.

[Somehiker]

Sorry for any questions my previous post may have raised.
I inadvertently posted a draft reply intended for DUSA to this topic.
http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic. ... 165#p27165

I wondered why it wasn't over there when I looked this morning.

Regards:SH.

[Mike McChesney]

Sorry for any questions my previous post may have raised.
I inadvertently posted a draft reply intended for DUSA to this topic.
http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic. ... 165#p27165

I wondered why it wasn't over there when I looked this morning.

Regards:SH.

GETTIN' OLD IS HELL!

[Somehiker]

Yep
There ARE days when it seems like that.
Mostly monday to friday.......

[Somehiker]

But I ain't so old that they named a candy after me.....yet.