THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mike,

Look. I have no intention of going into all of the reasons I believe what I do about Chuck Kenworthy. Many of them you have heard already, many you have not.

When any of us put our names, opinions and reputations on the line publicly, we are all open to good and bad reviews. Since I came online in 2002, I have created many friends and many enemies.......some I have never even met. Some people will tell you I'm the salt of the earth, others will say I'm a stupid SOB. That's what happens when you put yourself and your theories out there.

In America, we are all free to voice our opinions publicly. I appreciate you letting me know you don't like what I have said about Chuck Kenworthy. Truth is, I don't much care for your opinion of him either. On the other hand, I can find no fault in your thoughts as to what his motivating reasons were for writing his books.

I looked into the man's history a number of years ago. Made a number of the same contacts you did. I know how he made his money. I knew when Tiger made his last trip into the Superstitions. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Kenworthy ever found in the Superstitions, was a book.

You have assumed that I don't know enough about the man to form an intelligent opinion of him. I feel you don't really know enough about me and the research I have done, to form the opinion you have offered.

If you believe his treasure signs and your pictures lead to a Spanish mine or treasure, more power to you. I truly hope you find tons of gold. Nothing would please me more.

Take care,

Joe

[novice]

Joe,

You wrote:

While there are many books on the subject, I have a number myself, I would like to see an official "Spanish" document enumerating those symbols. Better yet, I would like to see one "authenticated" Spanish map with those symbols.
Until that happens, I will consider those books to be fiction, created for the sole purpose of making money for the authors. That goes double for Mr. Kenworthy, who was very good at that endeavour.

I would also doubt the existence of an official Spanish document enumerating treasure symbols but that really is not the point of my looking into Spanish Treasure symbols. I am trying to determine where the author came up with the symbols used on the stone carvings. I simply believe some symbols that appear on the stones are intended to represent Spanish Treasure symbols.

I will try to state “my” motive a little more clearly.

Since there is little doubt in my mind that Travis carved all of stones, my question should be viewed within that framework.

What Spanish Treasure symbol sources were available to Travis Tumlinson when he carved the stones about 1949?

I don’t want to get into a discussion about whether my premise is true or false.

Since Dobie, Carson and apparently Kenworthy have all referenced at least some of the symbols appearing on the stones I am simply looking for their, and other author’s, sources.

Travis collected about 100 Spanish Treasure symbols that he included in his manuscript. (About 1960) Where did he get them? I would ask the same question of Dobie although as far as Travis is concerned, I’m pretty sure he had Dobie’s book available to him.

Garry

[Oroblanco]

Novice posted

What Spanish Treasure symbol sources were available to Travis Tumlinson when he carved the stones about 1949?

Well we know that Mahan's work was not, O'Higgins book with the identical title "Early Spanish Treasure Signs and Symbols" was in print but sort of rare, I know that I have had some difficulty in locating a copy. Barry Storm had published two of his more famous books by that date and he included some symbols, several of which match what we see on the stones. It is also probable that magazine articles were in circulation, so could be another source.
Oroblanco

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roy,

I was going to look at Storm's first book, believe it was published in 1939, and see if he had those symbols in it. I believe he did.

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

Gentlemen:

If I had been the one to aquire ,first or second hand,a set of map-like stones,which I believed could be genuine,I likely would begin a collection of everything I could lay my hands on which could help me to understand them.
Especially if treasure hunters and authors were part of my family history.

I shot this from about 1/4 mile away last thursday.It's over 100 ft. above the base of the cliff,and at least 15' x 15'. It would also take considerable climbing skill to get down to it from above.It is only one of many of the "symbols" from the Stone Maps and Stone Crosses,many just as large or larger,which can be readily seen in the immediate area.

"BUSCA EL MAPA"

While Tumlinson and others may have been capable of carving stone,I really doub't he was capable of all of this,where such was created rather than simply utilized.Especially without a great deal of help and equipment...and time.

Regards:Wayne

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

I assume you realize the symbol is not orientated correctly.

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

Almost forgot.
Where is it ?
EXACTLY where the "P" of "PEDRO" is !

Regards:Wayne

[Somehiker]

Wayne,

I assume you realize the symbol is not orientated correctly.

Take care,

Joe

Yes.

It's one of the reasons for the "BUSCA EL MAPA".
As I've said before,the maps must be used in the field.
They are not like normal "maps".They are IMO,unique.
There are some challenges inherent,in that while almost all of the details are positioned as shown...three...for a reason,are not.
That reason appears to be related to what is shown on the Stone Cross.

Wayne

Wayne

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

I did use the maps in the field for, around, 45-years or so. I know some have said I only made 2-3 trips into the range in all that time, but they were talking out of their ass. I realize, that many people were down there listening to every little breeze that was expelled, but I assume you were never one of those.

Just for the record, I do envy those of you who are still....."in the field".

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

Joe:

I believe that.
And you have presented your theories well,and I would never dispute them,based on what others may have said.
My own theories are different,not for the sake of being different,but because they are based on my search for answers and no one else's.
I don't have all the answers.Not yet.
And some of those may only lead to more questions.
I'm still enjoying the challenges that the stones present with every trip.
Looking forward to next October.

Regards:Wayne

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

That's the real beauty and mystery of the Stone Maps. For those who have studied them on their own, with no other outside influences,s, the conclusions are always different and the locations are almost always in another place.

If we live long enough, I hope to one day see what you have worked out. So many people have shared their Stone Map conclusions with me, I can't begin to remember them all. I get email's from complete strangers who have sent me everything they have figured out. It's a fascinating mix.

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

I'm not surprised.
The guy ? who gave his verbal presentation at the rendezvous a few years back,at the gathering in front of your trailer was particularly entertaining,if not a bit tipsey.I've got some of it on video.Bowman may have topped it,but I missed his speech,unfortunately.

Wayne.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

I found meeting Bowman and the way he handled the results of his hike refreshing after the long record of his posts. His location was well known long (years) before he decided to show
up at the Rendezvous.

He was focused in on one of Chuck Crawfords old claims. We all had a good chuckle, and to be honest, I believe bb was very good natured about it. The site was an easy hike, even for us old folks. Having said that, I doubt I could make it farther than the first little hilll on the trail.

Not many big-headed Dutch Hunters could have handled it with the same grace he showed.
I believe many of us found him a likeable person.

Hope to see you in October.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Novice posted

What Spanish Treasure symbol sources were available to Travis Tumlinson when he carved the stones about 1949?

Well we know that Mahan's work was not, O'Higgins book with the identical title "Early Spanish Treasure Signs and Symbols" was in print but sort of rare, I know that I have had some difficulty in locating a copy. Barry Storm had published two of his more famous books by that date and he included some symbols, several of which match what we see on the stones. It is also probable that magazine articles were in circulation, so could be another source.
Oroblanco

Roy,

In Storm's first edition, "Trail of the Lost Dutchman", he has 14 Spanish treasure symbols on page 102. IMHO It is, somewhat, unremarkable.

I was recently sent a copy of the O'Higgins book. It was mailed by someone who originally was at odds with me. We had a few terse words but I believe we have graduated to semi-cautious friendship, perhaps even real friendship. I can only speak from my side of it.

The book? has around 21 pages of symbols with explanations. It does not say when it was printed. Other than modern-day books of this nature, I have still never seen an early Spanish source for the symbols. Some of them are borrowed, it is said, from the Native Americans and some from across the pond.

Knowing you are interested, I would make a copy for you, but I will have mine at the Rendezvous. Having seen it now, I would not pay much for an original......even if it was signed.

Take care,

Joe

[novice]

Oro,

Thanks for the heads up on Storm’s treasure symbols. I do have Storm’s books.

Have you seen Mahan’s book. I know it was published too late for Travis but Uncle Robert obtained a copy a bit later. Do you have any background on Mahan? Where was he from, what were his area’s of interest, etc.

A family member who knew Travis did pass on that he was an avid reader. It may have been a topic of conversation around the dinner table since it was bit unusual for someone who grew up in Travis’s timeframe when education was not that highly valued for a farm boy. I have a document that indicates Travis only completed the fourth grade.

I do suspect that Travis read everything he could get his hands on that related to treasure hunting and the works of Storm would almost surely have been among them, along with the Treasure magazines.

Larry Hannah has suggested that as a young man Travis may have had access to the long running magazine called “Boy’s Life”. They frequently carried articles relating to treasure. I had never heard of it (back issues are on the internet) but maybe some of you are familiar with it.

If anyone finds a treasure symbol in a publication that appears on the stone carvings, I would appreciate the details.

Thanks, Garry

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Joe - thank you for the very kind offer! I am in no hurry whatsoever and can afford to wait for this fall, and get a peek at it at the rendezvous. I did know that it is more in the nature of a pamphlet than a book, think it is something like 70 odd or even 50 odd pages. The date (from memory) of publication was 1932, by the International Explorers club which you are familiar with. O'Higgins obtained his information at least as far as what I could turn up, from various sources he found in south and central America so even if his symbol decoding is correct and accurate, we can not be sure that it would be identical for what is seen in the US and northern Mexico. If you could make a scan of the book some day, I would appreciate it.

Garry - I have seen Mahan's book but do not own it, he based his decipherment of the symbols on his own research of Padre Island, Texas, where he successfully unearthed some treasures supposedly by his decoding of the symbols he found. I think he had written an article on the same topic before the book but can't be sure on that, much of my own 'old' collection was lost some years ago.

You are correct about Boys Life too, very often there were treasure stories; I can't remember if there are any with treasure symbols included but it seems probable.

I am no expert on treasure symbols and do not have much faith in the various books on them, in part due to a lack of solid original documentary proof that there was any such official set of symbols and in part due to what sure looks to be misinterpretation of other, non-treasure symbols as treasure symbols. Turtles for one example are a fairly common Amerindian symbol that had nothing to do with stacks of silver and gold bars; then we have spirals, sunbursts etc and all of these are included in the books as "Spanish treasure" symbols. Spanish were not the only people leaving markings on the landscape, a great many were left as graffiti, or as trail markers, land boundary claims, mining claim monuments etc and are still being made today. They are all great fun to try to trace out and you never know what will turn up but I fear that a good many are getting misinterpreted as Spanish or Mexican when they could be less than 50 years old. Just an observation of course.

If I turn up any Boys Life article that includes treasure symbols I will post it.
Roy

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roy,

Here's the thing.....I would still like to see one (1), authenticated, Spanish map that uses any of these symbols in the manner described in the various treasure books. Just one.

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

Would such symbols have been meant for use on a map,or only for use in the field ?
With a map only to give a general location,and perhaps a start point,for example.
I'm not thinking "Stone Maps",here....but of other treasure maps.

Regards:SH.

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Here's the thing.....I would still like to see one (1), authenticated, Spanish map that uses any of these symbols in the manner described in the various treasure books. Just one.

Take care,

Joe

Hoo boy - I am the wrong guy for that task; I personally do not have any faith in treasure maps, on several grounds, and only ONE that I know of has any kind of reliable provenance and even that almost certainly has a fatal error in it. Of all the Spanish maps (and Jesuit maps) that I know of, none use the various symbols we see explained as Spanish treasure symbols.

That said some genuine Spanish stone inscriptions do indeed include mysterious symbols, like this one: http://www.nps.gov/elmo/images/20070209143013.jpg <lower left corner, a cross with drooping arms on top of something> or this one http://www.nps.gov/elmo/images/20070209134933.JPG which seems to have a large Greek letter "Phi" combined with a box boldly placed for some reason unknown to us. While researching ancient Carthage I found that they too had a set of symbols used for landmarks and even for hidden treasures, no document of course (though there may have been at one time, can never know as the libraries which would have held them were burned) and included such symbols as a horse or horse head, a dwarf with a feather headdress, hammer and sickle, a fish, swan, Tanit etc and all had special meanings which any Phoenician or Punic person would know at a glance; the horse head would mean Carthage, the swan Tyre, the fish Sidon and so on. So while there is not a lot of documentary proof that a true Spanish or Mexican treasure symbol system existed, I don't think it impossible by any means. I just think that we treasure hunters all too often let our optimism decide what a symbol means when it could just as logically be something quite different and mundane. It is also possible that some "Spanish" symbols are much more ancient, and could still lead to some kind of treasure or mines.



As to Somehiker's point, I do not know the answer. I would presume that the same set of symbols would be used (logically) for a waybill, which is more common than a true treasure map. A waybill that takes the person from landmark to landmark, not showing all the terrain nor at scale. If a set of symbols were meant to be used only 'on the ground' and not on paper, then the paper map should have the name or word marked for each symbol, I would expect.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

[Somehiker]

"If a set of symbols were meant to be used only 'on the ground' and not on paper, then the paper map should have the name or word marked for each symbol, I would expect. "

Roy or anyone:

If a recognizable series of features...markings/symbols,closely matching this series on the lower trail map,for example...and in the same order...what might be the meaning ?
Would each have it's own translation,or if very closely spaced,would they read like a sentence ?

Regards:SH

[djui5]

My opinion would be that you are on the right path and you need to follow the dots on the trail line to the left of the symbols. They're just there to assure you that the trail you are on is correct.

[Somehiker]

My opinion would be that you are on the right path and you need to follow the dots on the trail line to the left of the symbols. They're just there to assure you that the trail you are on is correct.

They do.But it seems a case of overkill,when only two matching markings would do the same.
There is a hole in the cliff,accessible without climbing gear,where the dot is to the right of the "F",so I'm concluding that is what's important.That same hole I believe,is also the dot to the right of the word "PEDRO" on the Horse Map.

Although I do have photos which clearly show all of the markings in the same orientation as carved on the lower Trail Map,as well as one from above and to the side which shows the "teepee" and more importantly,the "F" + "dot",I'm only going to re-post the one showing the "X" below the "teepee",and the "8" above it for now.



What I'm wondering is...do any of these markings resemble "treasure symbols",and if so,would they agree with my conclusion?

I have not determined why the inclination is to the left,instead of to the right.
Likely due to my being way too far to the left,and lower than, where the original viewpoint was.

While I had assumed that the stone with the hole through it and the "V" was a marker typical of what would be found at each dot along the trail,I now suspect that it was intended to draw attention to the cave in the cliff above.That cliff and cave is within sight of the one with the arrangement of markings mentioned above.



There is a "V" clearly visible to the upper right of that cave.The back end (of the cave) appears to have been blocked off,and I'm thinking that if the hole goes through the small stone,then the cave may continue as well.The "MEX" is on the cliff,just below the cave,and is visible from where I found the stone in the photo.



Regards:SH.

[djui5]

The V is used as verification, that you've found the right marker.

The hole in that stone looks like a hole someone woulda drilled into a rock to blast it with dynamite. A lot of the trails back there were dynamited by the Forest Service, who left some rocks with drill holes in them. I've found them along trails before. If that rock is close to any modern trail out there I'd discount it entirely.

[djui5]

Oh the triangle on the rock looks really old btw

[Somehiker]

Randy:

The red stone is only about 5" in diameter,from 5/8 to 1 1/2" thick,and the hole is slightly larger than 1/2 inch .
Looks to be about the same size as the three holes in the upper Trail Map.
Big enough for a firecracker I guess.But that's about it.I looked,but couldn't find anything else nearby with holes like that,or even that kind of rock.
Both sides are rough,with no recognizable markings on the back side.

Regards:SH.