THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

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Mike McChesney
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Mike McChesney »

PS

My avatar here is of one of the gold bars from that cache.

Mike
alan m
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by alan m »

azmula wrote:Garry,

I would like to give you some additional thoughts on Jesuits and map symbols. It is an accepted fact that Jesuits were the finest educated individuals of the time. They had no need of Spanish symbols in their map making unless they wanted the Spanish to follow their map to the treasure caches. The Spanish S/S were developed by the Spanish Court so that they would have a standard method of tracking mine sites. The Jesuits had a couple of much better techniques for their maps. It is good that you want to evaluate the signs and symbols to learn what I am saying. I will add a list of the best books that I have found on signs and symbols.

I believe that you will see that of the maps is obviously a fake when compared to the other two maps. The only thing that has any religious is the large cross on the reverse side of the red stone map. Once you study the s/s books you should note that some of the signs are not signs but are indicators.

S/S Books:
Handbook of Treasure Signs and Symbols by Mary Carson
Handbook of Treasure Signs by Dr. Arnold Kortejarvi
Treasure Signs and Symbols by Thomas Penfield
Pocket Book of Treasure Signs by Thomas Terry
The Book of Signs by Rudolf Koch
Reading Treasure Map Signs and Symbols by Mitch Waite

azmula
Why do you think the H/P stone to be fake ?, just because it was carved by someone else than the one you think carved the other stones?

This treasure was not mined, hidden and then secreted by cryptic map by one person.
It is obvious that the H/P stone originated in Santa Fe and was probably carved there.
The others were most likely, based on my own research and interpretation of the tablets, hidden in the church at Arizpe.
with such a network it points to the Jesuits

Fell free to tear this apart as I am sure some of you no doubt will
Alan
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Alan:
I think we are all in agreement that the stones were carved by more than one person.
Probable as well,that they were fabricated at different locations,using raw or recycled stones obtained from the vicinity of each location.
I have no problem with the original map makers being Jesuit,and also suspect they directed the effort to secure certain valuables and records from the Spanish authorities.
My findings also lead me to believe the Stone Crosses to be an earlier version of the Stone Maps,and that whoever designed the H/P Stone was intimately familiar with the area to which the other stones all applied.

The two following photos should partly illustrate why I have reached some of my own conclusions:

The first is of a small red stone found at what I believe to be the beginning of the trail.
It caught my eye,being the only stone in the pile of a different colour.I had pulled it out from between the other rocks and set it up for the photo.Note the orientation with the upper inset photo.

The second is a small part of a much larger view which features,in the proper orientation,markings which can be found on all of the stones.In this case,I have chosen that which matches the bottom "symbol" of the "map" cross.
At the upper left corner,the MEX which I posted previously from another photo angle,is also visible.

Regards:SH.

Image

Image
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

From another photo of the same area,but taken from a higher position on the opposite slope.

Image

SH.
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

I happen to agree with Mike's thoughts regarding the risks inherent with using any known method of symbols on what are otherwise,a unique set of maps.Rather than a complex collection of "signs or markers",which would require both time and manpower to position and construct,why not make use of what natural features might be seen from key points along the trails?
Especially if the area chosen for the caches had an infinite number of such natural markings.

More examples:



Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Regards:SH.
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Numbers as well:

Image

Image

The "2" and this "3" in what appears to be the proper sequence.

And the only other "holy stone" I've found so far....photographed as found.

Image

Regards:SH.
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by alan m »

S.H.
Facinating photos, have these markers lead you to anything of significance ?
Since it is possible that that Mike may be right in that the treasure may have already been recovered.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Alan:

Tough questions to adequately answer without giving too much.
Although the stones are two dimensional in form,I see them as being much like what can be captured with the camera,almost three dimensional.As such,they can only be used and understood in the field,IMO.Nothing seems to have been drawn to a common scale.The markings vary in sizes greater than what one would expect,although all are large enough to be seen at some distance from the relevant location.Almost everything is located on vertical or near vertical surfaces,so sat views are useless for finding much of anything recognizable,save for the heart,which of necessity was built upon near level ground.The exact location of,and description of the heart is shown by what is carved upon the Heart Stone itself.The maps,H/P and Trail combined,are what told me where to search for the heart on G/E.
This,from two years ago:
Image

Additional confirmation,for me,comes from what is visible in this photo:
Image

And a close up of what it is:
Image

Now that I have found what I believe is the second part,I am targeting what I hope is the first.The opening in the mountain,of which there are several,seems to have enough markings grouped around it to at least make it an interesting place to have a look.

Besides,it's what the Priest is pointing at :wink: .

Regards:SH.
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

alan m wrote: Since it is possible that that Mike may be right in that the treasure may have already been recovered.
Alan:

Since the large heart-shaped mound appears to remain undisturbed,and therefore whatever is under it unclaimed,I am hoping the same holds true for the "hole".
I do have some concern though,due to evidence that two other "markers" of a different type along the main trail have been disturbed,probably in more recent times.

Regards:SH.
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

To get back to the article:

Azmula:

Given what you have discovered about the history of the four stones,with the Map Stones and Heart Stone having been found at Arispe and the H/P Stone having been carved by Tumlinson,how is it possible that the caches would not have been recovered by now ?
Even assuming that the theft of the Map Stones would have caused a delay in the recovery,I would think that the time which has elapsed since their publication in Life Magazine would have been sufficient to allow for a retrieval by anyone (but Jesuit in particular) with the knowledge necessary to understand them.

Any ideas ?

Regards:SH.
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

Great pictures. Looks like you are on an interesting trail.

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:

That it is.With a few surprises along the way.
But not having found any obvious monuments or markers,other than the two stones with holes,it's hard to differentiate between an old trail used by man vs. a game trail which has been used for hundreds of years.
Two halves of a worn out burro shoe (I think) do show it was used at one time,though.They were found a short distance apart,close to an area which has been used as a campsite.

Azmula:

Have you seen this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_z7Nw62CzE

by "Loyola Productions"

particularly "ghost miners" at 2:20 in.

No word on completion or release.

Randy has previously suggested the series will attempt to prove the stories false.
I suspect that will be the gist of it as well.
But it makes me wonder why they would bother.

Regards:SH.
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

I'm sure it's a bit disconcerting when you find Stone Map clues, that don't actually conform to the entire trail map stones. For instance, a good friend of mine found a number of holes drilled into sheer rock faces that matched the circle in a circle markings. His Stone Map conclusions did not agree with anything of mine. I still respect his work even though our conclusions are at odds.

While searching for the circle in 1999, where I had placed it over 40-45 years ago, we found this in the exact location where I had placed it on my topo':

Image

The next year we went back to that spot again and couldn't find the outcropping. Had to go back with the picture in order to see it. Mountains in the background, other rocks, bushes......,etc.

Still wasn't totally convinced until we found the heart and the trail leading over the saddle from West Boulder directly to the heart. They were also exactly where I had put them over 40 years ago, without ever setting foot on that piece of ground.

Trail to the heart:

Image

Heart

Image

Using the Stone Maps.....alone, to place these three things on a topo' and than finding them decades later, convinced me, among other things, that I was right about the location. It would have been nice to have found the pot of gold, but if the maps are a fraud, it was enough for me to believe I had solved the Stone Map puzzle.

I made this stuff public in the hope that someone smarter than I would find.....something.

Still, I wish you and everyone else the best of luck,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hmmmm....

Don't know what happened to my pictures. Let's try again:

Image

Image

Image

One other thing we found was claim markers on both sides of the saddle between West and Little Boulder Canyons. There is a good (running) spring on the south side of the saddle.

Image

Joe
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Joe;

I can't say I've found myself disconcerted as yet,with anything I've found,other than the two markers mentioned in a previous post.But I have only been working on the stones for two years,far less than the length of time spent by yourself and others.While I suppose I could lay out the locations of everything on a topo,or a sat view,and they would match the relative positioning on the stones,I haven't bothered,simply because I have no need to do so.In my own analysis,the "circles within circles" are not manifest on the ground,unlike the "circle-dots".They are instead an instruction to look,or search for,the next item shown on the map.
Be there one,or be there "10".
The Priest (in the field),which is much more than previously though of or identified,explains why this is so,IMO.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Finally made the descent over the cliff and down to the opening which I was curious about.
Needed the climbing gear and a trusted backup at the top....thanks Tim :!:
The "hole" appears to be blocked off with a fill of smaller rock ,tightly packed and cemented in place.

Regards:SH.

Image
Image
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Something else found nearby.

Image
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Joe:

Could this be more of Tumlinson's handy-work ?
The X and "crack" make me wonder.

Image

Regards:Wayne
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

Try that again

Image
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

I have found many curious forms in nature. If you want to give meaning to all of them, you will be at it for awhile.

For me, your picture looks like a bear on his back with his legs up in the air and holding a salmon which is about to become.......dinner. :)

Take care,

Joe
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Somehiker »

:lol:
Interesting reply.
Black bear,Grizzly bear,
or Br'er bear.

Regards:Wayne
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by novice »

I apologize for interrupting the conversation in this thread, and I know I’m about a month behind but I wanted to thank Azmula and Mike for providing a foothold for Spanish Treasure symbols.

For a start, I did order Kenworthy’s book “Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shawdow and Sun Signs”. (I saw one priced for almost $300) I ordered a lot cheaper one. :)

The reason it caught my eye was the cover and the symbols shown that seem common to the stone carvings. I must confess I’ve never been a Kenworthy fan and the book of his I have was a real struggle to get through. Kind of like squeaky chalk on a blackboard. :)

I know Kenworthy may have simply lifted the symbols from the stones but I’m hoping he may also shed some insight on their provenance beyond the stone carvings.

Image

Trail beads, concentric circles, circle with dot, omega, cross in parentheses, the letter A with the slanted crossbar, etc.

By the way, a version of Mary Carson’s book is also online.

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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Hope all is well back there in the deep south...... :lol:

"....a foothold for Spanish Treasure symbols."

While there are many books on the subject, I have a number myself, I would like to see an official "Spanish" document enumerating those symbols. Better yet, I would like to see one "authenticated" Spanish map with those symbols. 8O

Until that happens, I will consider those books to be fiction, created for the sole purpose of making money for the authors. That goes double for Mr. Kenworthy, who was very good at
that endeavour.

Take care,

Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Mike McChesney »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Joe,

Yer killin' me! By the late 1960s-early 1970s Chuck Kenworthy was a Southern California Real Estate Multimillionaire.

Someone would have to prove to me that ALL of his books netted him more than a few thousand dollars.

What 99.9% of people don't realize is that all those books were self-published. What? Is it true? YES!

Chuck Kenworthy lived in Tarzana, Ca. while Quest Publishing was in Encino, Ca (very close). The LLC he formed in 1974 was called .... drumroll please ......................... "The Quest, An Exploration Corporation." Quest Publishing? The Quest? HUH?

So, if you count what he spent to self publish those books, and all the revenue garnered from their sales (if he sold more than a thousand of each book I would be surprised), I bet it was close to break even. HAHAHA He didn't write "Gone With the Wind" or "Harry Potter." When you get right down to it, he wrote Technical Manuals. The Technical Manual for your refrigerator has a broader appeal than what Kenworthy wrote.

Joe, YOU ARE NOT STUPID! Anybody that truly thinks Kenworthy wrote those books for profit from their sales is stupid. If you said he did it for ego, I would think you would have a much better case.

I have said this several times before; I believe that CK had the documents he claimed to have had. He published some of the information he had. What he didn't publish were the things that told you exactly where to dig.

He did the same thing that either Dick or George Holmes did (I don't remember which). I read somewhere that he put out some information that he knew, leaving out certain parts. I think the example given was the "rock that looked like a man." He left out some key pieces of information. His hope was that someone would find that rock, then because of the missing info, they would hit a dead end and contact him with what they found. He would use their info with what he had kept secret to find the DLM.

I think that CK was waiting for folks to contact him for help with a site. In and amongst the interesting rocks and bent branches, there would occasionally pop up something that was real. CK might then come in with his secret info and professional help (the team from SRI) and try to figure out the final clues and get a portion of the find.

Just a thought.

Mike
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Mike McChesney
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Re: THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

Post by Mike McChesney »

One other thing:

CK was not a treasure hunting philanthropist. He was in it for the money. Plain and simple. If the knowledge base of mankind was enhanced, then all the better, but he was in it for the money.

By my understanding of how things happened, he spent an awful lot of money bribing archivists and sub archivists. After several years of research and making contacts, he received 116 pages of copies of documents after paying a large sum of money. Of those 166 pages, 34 showed different signs and symbols.

..... at this point, let me interject my personal feelings. Any information that I had garnered after years of research and a ton of money spent, would not be shared with anyone not directly involved with me.

He shared some of that information in his books for whatever reason. There are several people that always proclaim "If you don't show me everything you have, then I'm not going to believe you!" Okay fine! Don't believe. It is totally all right, and completely understandable!

THIS IS ALL ABOUT MONEY! HIS PRIVATE INFORMATION THAT HE SPENT MANY YEARS AND A LOT OF MONEY TO OBTAIN IS JUST THAT ........ HIS PRIVATE INFORMATION. He doesn't owe you or anyone else anything. Believe or don't. I just get tired of a few people talking trash about a man they didn't know. Making statements about his motives for doing one thing or another like they have a clue what the man was thinking at some point.

Using the information he had, he made several finds, only three that I know the details of. Dr. Lambert Dolphin knows about more than I do, but he keeps mum on most of what he knows. Here is a quote from Dr. Dolphin:
My close friendship with Chuck continues to this day and I must say all his efforts have paid off handsomely for him as he does sometimes find treasures......
Believe or don't. That's not the point. Don't cast aspersions or ill motives to a person that is not here to defend himself and you didn't personally know. If you could legitimately say that you knew CK for twenty years and you personally know him to be a liar and a sheister, then I might reevaluate what I know........... but you can't.

Best - Mike
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