THE GENUINE STONE MAPS

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

This is enlightening and close to home:

http://www.sharlot.org/archives/history ... t-part-ii/

Joe

[Somehiker]

Wayne,

It was a common practice to bury priests beneath the altars of church's. One rather famous such burial was Saint Ignatius of Loyola.

Take care,

Joe

And Kino as well...http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 68,1202534

Not to mention the Crypt of St.Paul's Cathedral in London.
Or the Crypt of St Peter's Basilica, also known as the Vatican Grottoes.

Another interesting thing about St. Peter's is the wind rose in the square:
http://saintpetersbasilica.org/Exterior ... ndRose.htm

When I found this rock face,it reminded me of the faces on the marble markers.

Regards:Wayne

[Somehiker]

All,
Just a note: I never said that the three emails in the article were the only emails I received. I am still in touch with the family. Or that I never sent a list of questions to the Family similar to the list of questions generated here.

azmula

Azmula:

Do any of the other e-mails, or answers to your questions from the list ,shed further light upon the evidence posted by Gary on his website ?
Specifically the questions relating to the total number of stones.Three stones/four stones/and the other fifth stone sought by Richard Peck.
Do you see the documentation found and published by Gary (novice) as having any value to those researching the history of Tumlinson and the Stone Maps ?

Regards:SH.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

"Do you see the documentation found and published by Gary (novice) as having any value to those researching the history of Tumlinson and the Stone Maps ?"

I know you didn't ask me, but Garry's research has brought forth the first new, real evidence on the Stone Maps since the story was first published. There has been much speculation, new solutions, "expert" opinions and a good deal of pure fiction, but Garry has provided solid evidence of the original story being a fraud.

Anyone who has ever been in the mountains with me, will tell you that I have always warned them that the maps could be a fraud.....based on the real topography and history of the Superstitions. I have never given the Priest/Horse stone serious consideration. That voiced opinion did not win me any friends with Stone Map fans.

Whoever made the trail maps (or helped), knew the Western Superstitions very well. I consider that a fact.

Take care,

Joe

[azmula]

SH,

Azmula:

Do any of the other e-mails, or answers to your questions from the list ,shed further light upon the evidence posted by Gary on his website ?
YES???
Specifically the questions relating to the total number of stones.Three stones/four stones/and the other fifth stone sought by Richard Peck.
ONLY THE RED STONES + HEART STONE
Do you see the documentation found and published by Gary (novice) as having any value to those researching the history of Tumlinson and the Stone Maps ?
I AM NOT SURE I AM FAMILIAR WITH THAT WEBSITE?

azmula

[Joe Ribaudo]

Azmula,

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... eralta.htm

Don't believe I know of another website by Garry.

Joe

[Somehiker]

Azmula:

Gary has made an amazing effort to collect and publish a great deal of documentation related to the history of the Stone Map collection which is currently on display at the SMHS Museum.
This collection covers the timeline, from Travis's "discovery" of the stones until the surrender of four stones to the Flagg Foundation.
Most of what has been shared by Gary has also been debated on this site:
http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... f=1&t=1435
as well as under the various Stone Map topics on T-Net and DUSA.

Regards:SH

[Somehiker]

Azmula:

Considering the points which I have made in my post at the top of page 10,I am inclined to place more value on what was said and recorded by those involved with Travis at the time,than with what his relatives remember or care to say to a treasure hunter/researcher/writer 45 to 60 years later.

I'm not here to fault your work,for what you have done is commendable to say the least.

Some,including myself, who have disagreed with and do criticize some,but not all of your theories, have yet to publish a single book,article or even a paper on the subject.Once again,commendable.

But this should not be reason to withhold such questions or comments made without malice or intent to disrupt/derail your topic.
Nor should these questions or comments give reason to respond derisively or to discontinue the discussion and retreat,IMO.

Regards:SH.

[Somehiker]

Evidence included within the documents which Garry provided on his site indicated a rift which had appeared between Travis and his uncle Robert.
The root cause of the dispute being his uncle's use of the maps to search for and discover a cache of items related to the maps,this having been done without Travis' or, it now seems,the family's knowledge.
He had also brought another unnamed individual along for the search.

It has also been revealed that this rift was so great, that Uncle Bob did not learn of Travis' passing until the 13th of April,1965..four years later.(Robert Tumlinson (Uncle Bob himself passed away 7 days later,on April 20,1965).
He also did not know that Travis' wife had died as well.

It would appear to me,that Robert Tumlinson,the 81yr. old Uncle,had been shunned by not only Travis,but by the entire Tumlinson family.

Was it because he had betrayed the trust of not only his nephew Travis ?

Azmula:

Has the correspondence from the Tumlinson family made any mention of Travis' uncle Bob ?

Regards:SH.

[novice]

Guys, (Wayne, Mike, Azmula and maybe even Joe)

Hopefully this question is not too far off topic.

I believe everyone, at one time or another, has tied the Stone Maps to the Jesuits. Exactly what is it on the stone maps that shouts, the Jesuits were involved with these stones. I do see the large stone cross carved on the back of one of the trail maps. Is this the link? Does the word DON on the back of the other trail map tie a Mexican family or perhaps even the Peralta’s to the stone maps? The image of the Priest on the H/P Stone?

How does the scenario in which Travis Tumlinson carves the H/P map impact the belief that the Jesuits are involved or is there something on the H/P stone that also points to the Jesuits?

This query is not an attempt at a gotcha but an honest attempt to help me understand, Why the Jesuits?

Thanks,

Garry

PS Wayne, I hesitate to address a lot of your thoughts right now because it would be shooting from the hip and relying on memory. Some of my materials are not close at hand and it would require some reviewing to generate a thoughful dialog. I'm paying attention! Please continue.

[azmula]

SH,

I commend Garry on his historical data gathering. I am still trying to read it in detail. There are some similarities in our findings and differences. I would expect that when you interview different people. As we all are aware of is that we are expected to find what we want to accept as accurate or fits into our belief circle. I would be very surprised if the entire community agreed with my concepts. I have changed or modified my theories over the years as I have gained new data and viewpoints.

I was confused with your post below:

“Azmula:

Considering the points which I have made in my post at the top of page 10,I am inclined to place more value on what was said and recorded by those involved with Travis at the time,than with what his relatives remember or care to say to a treasure hunter/researcher/writer 45 to 60 years later.

I'm not here to fault your work,for what you have done is commendable to say the least.

Some,including myself, who have disagreed with and do criticize some,but not all of your theories, have yet to publish a single book,article or even a paper on the subject.Once again,commendable.

But this should not be reason to withhold such questions or comments made without malice or intent to disrupt/derail your topic.
Nor should these questions or comments give reason to respond derisively or to discontinue the discussion and retreat,IMO.

Regards:SH.”

I do not want to dwell on it, please. You have been courteous and as I stated when I started this thread I do not care whether anyone agrees with me or not. It is not my intent to convince everyone to my way of thought. I just like to see a positive dialog that sticks to the subject and you and others have done that so far. I have a great deal going on in my life right now and I do not have a lot of time to explain every detail of my map interpretation. Let me say that the history of the maps that I have not confirmed will not impact the solution of the maps. Because the maps were of different stone and were claimed by Tumlinson as being found in the desert is the reason I researched him and his allegations about the maps. The same reason was required to confirm the actual source location and creator of the maps.

Everyone has an opinion as to whether Travis carved one or all of the stone maps. Gary is doing a good job of documenting that issue and I personally do not feel need to rehash all of that with everyone’s opinions in this thread. Can we discuss the differences of the maps, carving techniques, and original intent of the maps?

azmula

[Joe Ribaudo]

Guys, (Wayne, Mike, Azmula and maybe even Joe)

Hopefully this question is not too far off topic.

I believe everyone, at one time or another, has tied the Stone Maps to the Jesuits. Exactly what is it on the stone maps that shouts, the Jesuits were involved with these stones. I do see the large stone cross carved on the back of one of the trail maps. Is this the link? Does the word DON on the back of the other trail map tie a Mexican family or perhaps even the Peralta’s to the stone maps? The image of the Priest on the H/P Stone?

How does the scenario in which Travis Tumlinson carves the H/P map impact the belief that the Jesuits are involved or is there something on the H/P stone that also points to the Jesuits?

This query is not an attempt at a gotcha but an honest attempt to help me understand, Why the Jesuits?

Thanks,

Garry

PS Wayne, I hesitate to address a lot of your thoughts right now because it would be shooting from the hip and relying on memory. Some of my materials are not close at hand and it would require some reviewing to generate a thoughful dialog. I'm paying attention! Please continue.

Garry,

I don't know as much about the Stone Maps as the others you mentioned, but I have spent around 45-years or so stumbling around the story. Some might expect that I would pick up a little knowledge just through osmosis.

It all started at a time when I was a fan of all the Jesuit treasure stories. At that time, everyone around me also believed in Jesuit treasures. In addition to that was the "fact" that Waltz had tied his mine to a "church". Ed Piper was searching for a Jesuit treasure as well as Celeste Jones and Al Morrow.

As for the Stone Maps, I doubt there is a need to enumerate the number of arguments that have been used to tie them to the Peralta's. If you accept that connection, it's a sure trail to Arispe and the families connection to the Jesuit church there.

You do have what looks like a man in a priests robes holding a cross. There are many church symbols on the Stone Maps. It seems natural to assume Jesuit, but in fact the Franciscan Order seems like a stronger connection......EL COBOLLO DE SANTA FE.

I know that the trail maps lead one into the southwestern end of the range and eventually to Little Boulder Canyon. Along the way, they show mines, canyons and peaks that are actually there, in the correct locations.

Through many years of my own research, I am convinced the maps have nothing to do with the Jesuits. Others are still convinced, but I doubt you will ever hear any real evidence that proves their point.

I have been wrong many times, so this might just be another case. I have always been willing to look at anyone's conclusions, and have many of them in my records, including, of course, Azmula's.

Take care,

Maybe Even Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

Further nebulous connections between the maps and the Franciscans can be found in the name and history of Don Pedro de Peralta. In addition to that, is the story of a spiral staircase somewhere in the Superstitions. That conjures up images of St. Joseph's Staircase at Loretto Chapel, also connected to Santa Fe and the Franciscan Order.

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

Joe:

I prefer to think of "SANTAFE",as it appears in both places on the Horse Stone,to have been carved to mislead those who would naturally associate the word with Santa Fe,NM.

For those who read the carving as SANTA-FE,there are two other cities of the same name to the south,of which the carver could have known.
"Santa Fe de Hatun Xauxa" in Peru,and the city of Santa Fe in Argentina (at the mouth of another river named Rio Salado)

Likewise,the literal translation of "SANTA FE" as meaning "Holy Faith" could lead the reader to (despite the misspelling of COBOLLO/CABALLO) assume the maker to have been a priest of some denomination.

It seems logical to me that the person who combined the separate words into one,could have had such a purpose.Tumlinson,who would have been well aware of the fact that Santa Fe is two words,and easily could have used a english to spanish dictionary to ensure the proper spelling of all of the spanish words carved on the stones,obviously did not do so.
Why not,when according to members of his immediate family,he had worked on the stones for a lengthy period of time ?

If however,the notes which he reportedly used as a guide depicted the words in the same manner,perhaps he felt it was necessary to add them to the maps in identical fashion.

Regards:SH

[Somehiker]

Garry:

Just a short answer..not much time.

I have never tried to find which are the earliest references to Jesuit wealth or treasure, but we do know the the suspicions of such predate the expulsions and suppressions.

While the Franciscans may have accumulated wealth as well,even in Arizona,they were never suppressed or expelled or even threatened with such actions.They therefore would have had no reason to hide what we would call "treasure" anywhere,much less create and conceal any kind of "treasure maps".

Travis claimed to have found the stones at the Queen Creek location in Arizona,just south of an area well known as the home of the LDM.
Queen Creek is also only a day's ride north of the Jesuit's assigned territory,the northern limit of which was the Gila River.
The three large stones display Christian religious symbology,multiple crosses and a priest figure at least,as well as other details which make them resemble maps.Nothing though,that makes them exclusively Jesuit.

So IMO,it seems reasonable for many to assume the stones to be a map to Jesuit treasure.

The cross and the "DON" cut into the reverse sides of the Map Stones would give credence to Azmula's theory that the stones were part of the flooring in the church at Arizpe,the "DON" stone marking a particular grave.Nuestra Señora de la Asunción had been built by Fr.Roxas,a Jesuit,upon the foundations of a smaller visita of earlier Franciscan origin,and was Fr.Roxas headquarters at the time of the expulsion.
If Azmula's information,on which he has based his theory, is genuine,this would be the strongest link to the Jesuits.

Regards:Wayne

[Somehiker]

Azmula:

My previous post was only intended to help in keeping your topic on track and to encourage the continuing exchange of thoughts regarding what was published in your article,including those parts of your theory shared within.I'd rather personalities and past differences did not get in the way of a civil debate.

"Can we discuss the differences of the maps, carving techniques, and original intent of the maps?"

While we have previously compared some of the more obvious differences,based on Garry's 2011 reports and photos,your article certainly adds more information worthy of discussion.

Regards:SH.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Joe:

I prefer to think of "SANTAFE",as it appears in both places on the Horse Stone,to have been carved to mislead those who would naturally associate the word with Santa Fe,NM.

For those who read the carving as SANTA-FE,there are two other cities of the same name to the south,of which the carver could have known.
"Santa Fe de Hatun Xauxa" in Peru,and the city of Santa Fe in Argentina (at the mouth of another river named Rio Salado)

Likewise,the literal translation of "SANTA FE" as meaning "Holy Faith" could lead the reader to (despite the misspelling of COBOLLO/CABALLO) assume the maker to have been a priest of some denomination.

It seems logical to me that the person who combined the separate words into one,could have had such a purpose.Tumlinson,who would have been well aware of the fact that Santa Fe is two words,and easily could have used a english to spanish dictionary to ensure the proper spelling of all of the spanish words carved on the stones,obviously did not do so.
Why not,when according to members of his immediate family,he had worked on the stones for a lengthy period of time ?

If however,the notes which he reportedly used as a guide depicted the words in the same manner,perhaps he felt it was necessary to add them to the maps in identical fashion.

Regards:SH

Wayne,

"EL COBOLLO DE SANTA FE" seems rather specific to me. The horse of/from Santa Fe. A member of DUSA (Gene Botts) wrote this:

[One writer claims that the phrase El Cobollo De Santa Fe inscribed on one of the stones was a common saying meaning, "Good luck on the trail." The Spanish word for horse is misspelled; caballo is correct. The term "el caballo de Santa Fe" appears in Spanish language literature, but I am unable to find anyone who can recall ever seeing it used in the context of "Good luck on the trail." The words simply do not lend themselves to that meaning.

In a story about early California missionaries, a priest is quoted, "Yo soy el caballo de Santa Fe." In the context in which the phrase is used, the priest clearly means: "I am the horse (the servant) of the Holy Faith." In another story, a tax collector in conversation with a wealthy merchant in New Mexico in the early 19th century says, "No tengo la culpa, Señor. Yo soy el caballo de Santa Fe, nada mas." Here he clearly means: "It’s not my fault, sir. I am the horse (the servant) of Santa Fe (the seat of the territorial government), nothing more." I’m sure there are many other examples, but I don’t have the patience or the inclination to look them up at the moment.
I’m going to venture a guess that the person who did the scribbling on the Peralta Stones was an English speaker with little knowledge of the Spanish language and culture. The mistakes in the Spanish are such that I am led to this conclusion, but that’s only my opinion.]
_________________________________________________________________

Taken alone, that seems to make a lot of sense, however........Taken with "YO PASTO AL NORTE DEL RIO" it seems to point towards "I am the horse from Santa Fe", as "grazing" (pasto) would seem out of place for any other interpretation.

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

Joe:

I've given two possible reasons for both the inclusion of SANTAFE and the fact that ,on the stone,it is carved as a single word,rather than as two.
Do you then,include yourself among the first group I mentioned,in reading the SANTAFE as being Santa Fe ?
Why would Travis combine the two words into one,when surely he would have known this to be wrong ?
If we are to take SANTAFE,as it is carved on the stone,as a link to the city of Santa Fe,NM.,then why not take DEL RIO to be Del Rio,Texas ?

Could this be additional proof that Travis made the H/P Stone?

Especially since the maps were made in Texas,a state with millions of acres of pasture land and north of the Rio Grande ,by a decendent of John Jackson Tumlinson ,one of "The Sons of the Republic of Texas".

Regards:Wayne

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

I never gave the Priest/Horse map any serious time. The fact that it was not pictured with the other two, in the same time frame, made me distrust it. It would seem that doubts are well founded.

That being said, I don't think it makes any difference how you read it. Since I firmly believe that Travis had to have help to create the trail maps, I am reluctant to give him as much credit, intelligence-wise, as you do.

Take care,

Joe

[Somehiker]

Joe:

Although I've never given it much thought,I can't say that I would consider Travis to have been blessed with anything more than average intelligence.

Even a person of normal abilities and wisdom would realize that he could not create such art in public one day,then try to present it or sell it as antique the next.
Especially with witnesses who had such interest in his hobbies of carving and treasure hunting that they might remember his maps so well as to identify them ,even into the next millennium.

Without tangible proof (such as that given by both Novice and Azmula), of a connection between Travis and Aylor...Travis and Ward... or even Travis and DeGrazia...or,for that matter...anyone who would have known the Superstitions well enough to have co-conspired with Travis in the fabrication of a set of phony stone maps for any purpose,I will continue to consider this theory nothing more than what it is...another theory.

Regards:Wayne

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

Don't believe I ever submitted those theories as fact. Of course they are theories. Almost everything I post is personal opinion, not fact. I believe that holds true for just about everyone who posts here.

Take care,

Joe

[novice]

I want to thank Joe, Wayne and the individual who sent me a private message responding to my question; Exactly what is it on the stone maps that shouts, the Jesuits were involved with these stones?

I was looking for an obvious symbol(s) or tie on the stones but it appears the Jesuit theories are much more involved.

Wayne summed everything up pretty succinctly, at least for me;

The three large stones display Christian religious symbology, multiple crosses and a priest figure at least, as well as other details which make them resemble maps. Nothing though, that makes them exclusively Jesuit.

Since I have never tried to research the Jesuits and their alleged hidden treasures, and I wouldn’t have a clue about how to proceed, I would like to look into so called “Spanish Treasures Symbols”.

I would assume these symbols are probably ”credited” to Spanish civilians as opposed to a religious order? It would seem to me that Jesuits wouldn’t be using common Spanish treasure symbols?

If anyone can give me a foothold for sources of Spanish Treasure Symbols, I would be grateful. I am particularly interested in documents that reflect symbols that are earlier than say 1958 or so. I am aware of the symbols that Dobie published in 1930 but I have found no indication of his sources. I have also seen those symbols that Robert Garman published in his book (abt 1975) and again I don’t know his sources. Does anyone know of other references?

Garry

[azmula]

Garry,

I would like to give you some additional thoughts on Jesuits and map symbols. It is an accepted fact that Jesuits were the finest educated individuals of the time. They had no need of Spanish symbols in their map making unless they wanted the Spanish to follow their map to the treasure caches. The Spanish S/S were developed by the Spanish Court so that they would have a standard method of tracking mine sites. The Jesuits had a couple of much better techniques for their maps. It is good that you want to evaluate the signs and symbols to learn what I am saying. I will add a list of the best books that I have found on signs and symbols.

I believe that you will see that of the maps is obviously a fake when compared to the other two maps. The only thing that has any religious is the large cross on the reverse side of the red stone map. Once you study the s/s books you should note that some of the signs are not signs but are indicators.

S/S Books:
Handbook of Treasure Signs and Symbols by Mary Carson
Handbook of Treasure Signs by Dr. Arnold Kortejarvi
Treasure Signs and Symbols by Thomas Penfield
Pocket Book of Treasure Signs by Thomas Terry
The Book of Signs by Rudolf Koch
Reading Treasure Map Signs and Symbols by Mitch Waite

azmula

[azmula]

Garry,

May I suggest you read the Jesuit articles on gollum’s website www.1oro1.com if you haven’t already visited the site and you might even like to check his reference sources. The articles are very detailed and well documented. The following is my opinion of the maps’ origination. You may also want to chat with him about his findings from his comparative analysis of the carving technique that he was doing using his digital microscope.

When I saw the maps the first time I was concerned why two maps looked similar while the third map was carved differently on a different type of stone. I found that the stone material was the same as the red sandstone in Arizpe, Sonora. A historical contact in Sonora told me of two stone maps that were found in the floor of the church during a renovation.

No one seemed to be sure who made the maps. When I started checking map sources I found that the Jesuits were the best possible source. The Jesuits were trained in Mathematics, theology, mining, mapmaking and astronomy. The maps that were created in the 16th and 17th centuries by the Jesuits are still accurate today.

I wanted proof of which map was the fake map. This was the only reason that I got involved in the Tumlinson family history. I am interested in the solution of the maps and only that history which applies to that solution.

azmula

[Mike McChesney]

Azmula,

Thanks for the reference to my website. To anyone that doesn't know me from TNet or DUSA, those are the places I am called Gollum. I had planned on using it everywhere, but it was already used in a couple of places, so I used my real name (here for one). Although I have never been shy about giving my real name anywhere.

Garry,

I can tell you without any equivocation that the Spanish used signs, symbols, and monuments for many reasons (directional, hiding treasure, monumenting important places along a trail such as water sources, camp sites, dangers, etc).

Another good source for monuments and signs are books by Charles Kenworthy:

1. Spanish Monuments & Trailmarkers to Treasure in the United States
2. Treasure Signs Symbols Shadow & Sun Signs

Let me reiterate here something that Azmula already said:

Don't ever think that even if you learn everything there is to know about Spanish Symbolism that you will have the slightest inkling of how to find anything hidden by the Jesuits. Remember, the Jesuits were hiding their wealth from the Spanish. Why on Earth would they use signs and symbols that the Spaniards would understand?

The simple answer is: THEY WOULDN'T!

If you are anywhere near a Jesuit Treasure Site, and see any Spanish Symbolism, it is only a ruse, being used for misdirection, or has a meaning different from that understood by the Spanish. There are some people on some forums that claim to understand how the Jesuits encoded their secrets. I will tell you that they are idiots and know absolutely ........ dick! I know about as much as anybody regarding SPANISH signs, symbols, and monuments. For a long time, I thought that what applied to one, also applied to the other. The more one learns about the Jesuits, the more one realizes that their codes and symbolism HAVE to be much deeper and more subtle in nature. Take for example:

On my website, I tell the entire story of a friend of mine that currently resides in Tucson, who in 1986, found a large cache of Jesuit Gold Bars. They are assumed to be of Jesuit origin, due to markings on the bars and the marking on one of the large rocks at the site. In the story, my friend describes finding a large flat rock with a cross carved on it. Look carefully at the picture and you should see something he missed: A HEART UNDERNEATH THE CROSS! That says Jesuit to me.

http://1oro1.com/jesuits/rqfind.html

After reading the story, one gets more of an idea of how subtle and complex Jesuit Codes are. For this cache, a combination of MAYAN Numbers, a series of crosses, and mathematics not easily guessed. All that for 82 pounds of gold. How much more complex a system of coding would we see for an immense Church Treasure (especially if the Order had a year or two to prepare everything)?

Best - Mike