The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

djui5 wrote:Where does this whole "horse" clue thing come from anyway?
I will check my library to be sure but if I recall correctly, it came from the Apache legends about the LDM.
Alan
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Somehiker »

Randy:
A complete (whole) horse is what appears on the Horse/Priest Stone Map.
A horse head (only) is shown on a couple of the LDM maps.
Some folks seem to confuse the two.

Regards:Wayne
alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

The horse was also the symbol used by the Spanish to designate a secure camp where one could refresh their horses.
It came into use sometime arounf 1800 as a result of the stratigy implimented by General Hugh O'Connor which succesfully contained the Apache untill 1811.
Alan
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

alan m wrote:The horse was also the symbol used by the Spanish to designate a secure camp where one could refresh their horses.
It came into use sometime arounf 1800 as a result of the stratigy implimented by General Hugh O'Connor which succesfully contained the Apache untill 1811.
Alan

Alan,

That's an interesting piece of information. Can you tell us what historical documents contain that story?

Thanks in advance,

Joe
pippinwhitepaws
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

amazing how much i missed in class.
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/irish.html (second paragraph)

http://chuck.hubpages.com/hub/Hugo_OConor

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/sp ... iv.11.html



general hugh o'connor...
contained the apache in 1811?
from tucson?
:oops:
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Pip,

That would explain this question:

"That's an interesting piece of information. Can you tell us what historical documents contain that story?"

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

damn...i bet this is the first time you agreed with me on anything.

:lol:
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

That's a bet you would loose. 8O

Joe
alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

pippinwhitepaws wrote:amazing how much i missed in class.
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/irish.html (second paragraph)

http://chuck.hubpages.com/hub/Hugo_OConor

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/sp ... iv.11.html



general hugh o'connor...
contained the apache in 1811?
from tucson?
:oops:
First off it was his implementation, not him as you so ellequently show, he died in 1777 or therebouts.
Your allusion to the first link provides no useful information.
and the third link provides little of it. other than an account of O'Connor LEAVING TUCSON and heading back out to the northern frontier to engage the Apache.
The initial information on O'Connor's contribution to the pacification of the Apache comes from Bancroft.
The second is from his own written report to de Croix including his assesment of the frontier just prior to command being turned over to de Croix.
This is just a start, I will provide more explicit information when I dig it up from my archives.
Best to you, as allways
Alan
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

"As one historian has stated, folklore is not history.34"


one did not need to go north to find apache outside tucson...

one only had to live on the outskirts of tucson to find apache.

any further attempt to be a historian{ for me} is futile.
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Alan,

Can you tell us what all of that has to do with this statement:

"The horse was also the symbol used by the Spanish to designate a secure camp where one could refresh their horses."

Once again, is there some historical book or document that contains this information?

Thank you in advance,

Joe
alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

pippinwhitepaws wrote:"As one historian has stated, folklore is not history.34"


one did not need to go north to find apache outside tucson...

one only had to live on the outskirts of tucson to find apache.

any further attempt to be a historian{ for me} is futile.
Folklore is indeed history when there is no other record, its validity is only in question.
also it makes little difference if O'Conner needed to go north of Tucson or not, when the fact is that he did, read his account.( maybe not himself personally but his command and his troops did.)
He used roving patrols to chase down and slaughter any Apache that viloated the terms of the peace, or rather continued to raid the Spanish settlements.
Bancroft states explicity that it was this very tactic which pacified the Apacheria and made it possible for Spanish settlers, Ranchers and Miners to move into those areas which had been so long under the control of the Apache.
It is common knowledge that the succesful utilization of roving patrols on horseback require estabilished bases from which to oparate.
One final point, since we are discussing a topic where there is little or no documented support from any recognized authority, I will conceed that it is my interpretation of the written record.
Best Regards
Alan
alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Alan,

Can you tell us what all of that has to do with this statement:

"The horse was also the symbol used by the Spanish to designate a secure camp where one could refresh their horses."

Once again, is there some historical book or document that contains this information?

Thank you in advance,

Joe
There are numerous horse symbols throughout the southwest and those which have been studied and written about are in association with locations that were defendable, along military routes and had an ample supply of water.
The base camp I discovered in 2009 has all of these attributes, including the carveed symbol of a horses head.
There is also one at mineral mountain accompanied by a heart symbol and the number 7 which also designates a camp or place of rest.
The Indians did not do this, and neither did the local ranchers, that leaves the Spanish.
As for the association with the military patrols, it is obvious that horses need water and all water locations wer well known to the Spanish since there is ample evidence of their having been there.
Alan
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Alan,

"Once again, is there some historical book or document that contains this information?"

Thank you. I will take your last reply as a........NO, there is not.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Pip,

"The horse was also the symbol used by the Spanish to designate a secure camp where one could refresh their horses."

That information is not found in the book you provided the link for. 8O

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

yes joe..i noticed..but..it is Bancroft...
i was reading a piece about the Comanche nation..how they ran the Apache out of Texas, Kansas, and into the southwest. how the Comanche ran an organized government based on terrorism...
made me begin to suspect that the Apache threat was more mythology than factual...
even though i know the Apache were a constant threat to settlers in thee southwest.
perhaps this was due to their loosing ancient homelands.

i really would like to see the treatise on trail signs designated by the Spaniards to be used in the frontier.
a stack of rocks..sure, blaze on the tree..yep...turtles an horses and lightening bolts?

really
alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Alan,

"Once again, is there some historical book or document that contains this information?"

Thank you. I will take your last reply as a........NO, there is not.

Take care,

Joe
Joe
If you are looking for a book or document which explicitly explains the meaning of symbols and how they were used, you may be disappointed.
As you are well aware, most of the books which describe the meaning of symbols are just generalizations and incorrect.
Since we are talking about a stone map, which most believe to be a hoax, and a lost mine which many believe does not exist, I fail to see the point in trying to pin it down.
It is my interpretation based upon my research, nothing more.
However as an aside to that, The stone maps have yet to be deciphered and the mine has yet to be found.
The facts concerning this topic have been well run through and if there is to be any advance in it, it will require some research that is not based upon some Phd's recomendation.
You seem to enjoy tearing apart any theory that does not reflect existing fact, but the facts have not gotten us any closer to understanding, so where do you suggest we go from here?
I thought this site was a place for the exchange of information and ideas.
I was obviously wrong.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Oroblanco »

Alan wrote
I thought this site was a place for the exchange of information and ideas.
I was obviously wrong.
Not to speak for Joe, I am sure he can speak for himself, just wanted to add a bit concerning the points Alan raised.

I think this still is a place to exchange information and ideas; that we can not agree on some things is only natural, and how dull the conversation would soon become if we all thought the same things.

The stone maps are not proven to be fakes regardless of what our opinions are, so there can be little harm in examining the issues around them. As to Waltz's lost mine, the fact that some have introduced a lot of BS into the bare bones story does not mean the basic facts are not true, so again it cannot cause any harm to discuss the subject. We may never agree on the reality or un-reality, but we very often gain from the research we do just in discussing the topic and that is always a good thing. We don't gain by sinking to flame wars and vitriol, which has never served to change the mind of anyone, so it is a good idea when we try to remain civil. Sometimes that can be difficult of course, as many of us have deep convictions that we hold and it can seem an insult when someone else casts doubts upon them.

It appears that you would rather not discuss these topics Alan so I am not going to try to push you into it, and hope that you will change your mind some day. Good luck and good hunting Alan and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

alan,
i have spent most of my life outside in the southwestern mountains and basins...
i went to high school out in superior...wandered places people will tell you one can not get to from here.

i have yet to see more than a blaze in a tree, or a stack of rocks to mark a trail.
though some pictographs did look interesting.

if some spanish mercenary created a system of trail markers, it is written down somewhere...the king was like that.

don't allow me to ruin what you know...i just like documents...its the training.
alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

Roy
I do not wish to come across as a jerk because I am reluctant to divulge any specific information.
I have posted a considerable amount in the past.
The problem is that this is an open forum and I do not know all who view it, and yet while I have never been shot at while in those mountains, I have been followed, that alone is unnerving enough.
I am also in complete agreement with you, Joe and Pip on the issue of documentation, it is the final word on which all can agree, however when there is no documentation you must forage ahead as best as you can.
I am not convinced that I am right due to my ego, but rather because I have discovered evidence which I firmly believe is proof that the stone tablets are not a hoax.
I tried to make it to the rendezvous this year but work prevented it.
I am planning another trip to complete my photo survey of the base camp this month, in spite of the numming cold.
Best Regards
Alan
alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

pippinwhitepaws wrote:alan,
i have spent most of my life outside in the southwestern mountains and basins...
i went to high school out in superior...wandered places people will tell you one can not get to from here.

i have yet to see more than a blaze in a tree, or a stack of rocks to mark a trail.
though some pictographs did look interesting.

if some spanish mercenary created a system of trail markers, it is written down somewhere...the king was like that.

don't allow me to ruin what you know...i just like documents...its the training.
I agree with you on that point, having received my formal training in anthropology
But I find it interesting that today proffessionals are entertaining ideas that would have gotten people in my day thrown out of class, the point is that we are dealing with something that is unique so there cannot be a roadmap on how to proceed with any analysis.
I have seen many trail markers and have probably read almost every book ever written about them, one thing struck me as odd, the symbols all deal with trails to treasure or the tresure itself.
Having spent many years traveling in the desert I know that there is one thing as valauble as gold, thats water.
Amazing that ther are no real symbols which point to any water according to the "experts"
La Van Martinau opened my eyes in his book "The Rocks Begin to Speak"
Alan
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Alan,

While I don't have the training that Pip and Roy have, I have spent many years reading the history of the Southwest and Mexico. However, I did not confine myself to that narrow field of interest.

In that process, I spoke personally to many historians, archaeologist, professors......etc. One such person was Professor Eugene Lyon. He was the man who did the research in the Spanish Archives for Mel Fisher and found the documentation which led him to the final resting place of the Atocha.

He was also the man that Chuck Kenworthy claimed he had hired to search those same archives, looking for and finding the "King's Code". Most of the information that Chuck found on that document was used in his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow and Sun Signs". Trouble is, Dr. Lyon told me he had never worked for Kenworthy, although he did have one phone conversation with him about the location of a sunken Spanish ship. He knew nothing about a "King's Code".
__________________________________________________

[Roger Post subject: Eugene Lyon ProfilePosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:23 PM


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Posts: 329 I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".

Eugene Lyons is a very respected researcher and archaeologist in his field. He has served on several Museum Board Of Directors and has been on the teaching/research staff of several universities. He has been recognized by the King of Spain, the Dominican Republic President, and a number of recognized organizations. I would believe that his credentials and integrity are excellent and he did not "lift" documents from the archives and maintain this level of recognition. Eugene worked in these archives for 20 yrs and would not have jeopardized his access to them.

If you would like to read a little further on Eugene Lyon, check out these web sites:

Eugene Lyon - Director of Center of Historic Research at Flagler College, St. Augustine, FL (Retired professor)
http://www.staugustine.com/flagler/lyon.shtml

Eugene Lyon - Mel Fisher Museum Board of Directors
http://www.melfisher.org/genelyonboard.htm

Eugene Lyon - Amelia Research & Recovery LLC
http://www.ameliaresearch.com/pages/crew.htm

Roger]





I believe I know as much as any man alive about Spanish treasure signs.........which is next to nothing. There are no such historical secret documents that anyone can provide for examination. Spain, in that era, was notoriously weak in creating secret codes. In fact, they were a "laughingstock" to the rest of the known world, with the Kings secrets being read before the ink could dry.

You have made a claim that the horse symbol signified a place of water and rest. To make that kind of statement of "fact", one would have to assume you learned it somewhere. Basically, I only asked for the source of that knowledge. You have finally told us, "It is my interpretation based upon my research, nothing more." Had you wrote that in the beginning, we could have saved a lot of time.

I don't look to "tear down" your theories, only test them. That's what you are supposed to do with theories. That is what takes them from being theories to........fact. That is what I am really looking for on these sites, facts. It's ok if none are available, but I just want to know that.

You made a statement which started a number of us doing research to see if there was some substance to what you wrote. In that process, we have all found other avenues of research. Never a bad thing. We told you what we had found and believed, which is an "exchange of information".

Thank you for that.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Oroblanco »

Just a bit on the signs that we sometimes find; I think that we treasure hunters may be a bit too quick to make conclusions when we do find odd symbols marked, far from roads. Not just Spanish or Jesuits could be the only answers as to who made them. We found a series of odd marks in the Dos Cabezas mountains a couple of years ago, some were quite close to old mines and I was scratching my head over the marks which were carved into rock in odd places; the sign was a diamond with a large "D" in the center. After some research I finally found that they were a livestock brand for a local ranch, from the late 1800s.

Your point about signs to lead to water is a good one - for not just miners or prospectors have been wandering about, ranchers, trappers, hunters, hikers, surveyors, hikers, campers etc have all been leaving marks scattered about not to mention Indians. It is wise to try to identify who made the signs before making conclusions about where they may lead.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
alan m
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by alan m »

Roy
You are right in that most hunters see what they want to see, the Treasure Net site has a lot of treasure sign photos posted, more than half of them are just small odd shaped rocks.
I do not think that anyone would make a marker on a rock small enough to be thrown.

To date I have found four man made defense works
Three rock cairns made from rocks too large to be moved by one man.
Two carved horses heads
One carved spanish or indian face
three triangle symbols
three "hole in the wall" trail signs
and one navigation alignment of two landmarks, none of which has been reported in any of Kenworthy's books.
Alan
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