The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

I looked into the two brothers story, a number of years ago. Here is a post I made to Eldorado:

[E,

You are mistaken about the two soldiers. They were Union. Two brothers, last name......Ludi.

As for the rest of your ramblings, I see no harm in your game and wish you well. The Superstitions can do strange things to folks.

It's more than possible that the LDM is real and you are the illusion.

Joe]
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Oroblanco
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Oroblanco »

Cactusjumper wrote
You are mistaken about the two soldiers. They were Union. Two brothers, last name......Ludi.
Hi Joe,
Thank you for the correction, the story (as found in a couple of sources including Barry Storm) have it as Jacobs and Ludi incorrectly. Also I did not state they were Confederate, what I said was
this whole story was lifted from that of two other miners named Jacobs and Ludi. For a long time I did not believe those two ever existed but another excellent researcher recently discovered documentation to prove they did, and their brief service in the military.
The story as found and as grafted into Waltz's story has it that they were Confederates, which is always more dramatic for the audience than to say Union ex-soldiers. I should have specified Union.
Oroblanco
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi Roy,

"Also I did not state they were Confederate....".

I know. I was quoting from a post to Eldorado back in 2007.....as I recall. The Ludi brothers showed up, I believe, in Tucson. I probably have the details of that research.......somewhere.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

A quick search brought up some of the information:

Name: Jacob Ludi
Side: Union
Regiment State/Origin: Missouri
Regiment Name: 2 Batt'n. Mo. S.M. Cav.
Regiment Name Expanded: 2nd Battalion, Missouri State Militia Cavalry
Company: D
Rank In: Captain
Rank In Expanded: Corporal
Rank Out: Corporal
Rank Out Expanded: Corporal
Film Number: M390 roll 29

_________________________________

Name: Charles Ludi
Side: Union
Regiment State/Origin: Missouri
Regiment Name: 2 Batt'n., Mo. S.M. Cav.
Regiment Name Expanded: 2nd Battalion, Missouri State Militia Cavalry
Company: D
Rank In: Private
Rank In Expanded: Private
Rank Out: Private
Rank Out Expanded: Private
Film Number: M390 roll 29
___________________________

As I recall, they joined on the same day, and were also mustered out together. Their names were, as noted: Jacob and Charles Ludi.

Funny how history and fiction have a way of melding together.

Take care,

Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

Thanks for that. I have been up both East and North Forks more times than I can count, and have only found one or two exploration holes (about 10-20 feet deep). Check your book if you don't mind for a time frame on those hardrock mines. The oldest one I can find mention of was opened in 1870. Most of the mines that I have found mentioned were opened sometime around the turn of the century. It also looks like the NPS is up to their old tricks of removing historical items from maps (mines, trails, and springs) of the area.

........... and now thanks to you, I am going to have do some exploring in some Godforsaken Poison Oak Choked canyons Northeast of there, because while looking into your rememberings, I found mention of two guys that thought they might have found the Lost Padre Mine (with GPS Coords). aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

Mike
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

.....uuuuhhh ..... that should read "Northwest of there"


Mike
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Potbelly Jim
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Potbelly Jim »

Hi Oroblanco,
Sorry you got claim-jumped, Brother. I can only imagine how frustrating that would be to see someone working your claim after they stole it. Hope they savor the taste of that big bite of bad karma samwich!

Well I sure got off on a rant. I guess I believe in the possibility there is a LDM somewhere. I just have big problems with the stories, and all those stories lead to the Supes. I don’t know what to think about the timelines in the stories either. There are so many holes it leads me to conclude that the originator(s) of the stories really didn’t know much about Jacob Waltz, and if the stories originated during his life or soon after his death, there were probably plenty of people in PHX that could have filled in the holes…so why weren’t they is my question. It’s possible the real story is out there and we just don’t have access to it.

All your responses were dead-on and I don’t have any answers that would help my position. Good point also about Doc Walker, but I haven’t seen a “Doc Walker Manuscript”. All I “know” about him was told to Weedin who several years later told Jim Bark, who told him to talk to Sims Ely, and then Weedin never could find the map but drew one from memory and gave it to Sims Ely, who put it in his book decades later. That kind of provenance of information is my point.

I’m really glad people like Thomas Glover and Helen Corbin have hammered away at the LDM and have shed light on a lot of things. I know there are problems in Corbin’s book, (some solved by folks on this forum…great work!) but I don’t care, I loved it anyway. I hope AG Corbin reconsiders; it could always be released with a foreword. Sorry to stray but I can’t thank those authors enough for sharing their research with us.

Thanks to both you and Mike for debating the finer points without taking me apart personally! Best Regards, Jim R.
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Oroblanco
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe <Cactusjumper> wrote
Roy,

A quick search brought up some of the information: <snip>
Thanks Joe, really this Ludi lost mine story is another Two Soldiers isn't it? Makes one wonder if that is not at the root of the 2 Soldiers story that got blended into Waltz. There are at least three different lost Two Soldiers mines in Arizona alone, and from what it looks like (to me) it is quite possible that cross-contamination or confabulation has occurred with at least two of them, if not all. So we have the Ludi brothers two soldiers mine, the Sanders two soldiers mine and the Belle McKeever two soldiers mine just for starters. I don't count the two soldiers mine story of the Superstitions as I am fairly convinced that the story is a transplant.

Not saying that the Belle McKeever mine is likely located in the Superstitions, several different prospectors claimed to have found it in the Dripping Springs mountains in the late 1800s to early 1900s, but the fact that there are several different stories and different mines (for there is no reason to think that all three of these are the same mine) does raise another issue about what story it was that Joe Deering heard about in Prescott? Was it the Ludi story, or the Sanders story, or the Belle McKeever story that he thought he could find? I would appreciate your opinion, even if based on hunch alone and this goes to any and all that would care to answer - and no it is not a trick question by any means as there isn't really a right or wrong answer. Just would like to hear opinions and any argument(s) in favor if you would care to share them. Thank you in advance,

Mike - now you need to quit working so hard, not only does it make the rest of us look bad and sets a bad example, but the over-work is staring to show in your posts! Northeast vs northwest! Less work and more time treasure hunting is what I prescribe, in my capacity as local witch doctor and snake oil peddler practicing medicine sans license.
<Mike wrote>
while looking into your rememberings, I found mention of two guys that thought they might have found the Lost Padre Mine (with GPS Coords). aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
Good luck to you amigo and I hope you will keep us posted, thank you in advance.

Jim - I am glad that nothing I said was offensive to you, and it is never helpful for any of us to start trying to tear down each other. Never helps to sway an opinion anyway, and that is the main idea of having discussions I think. It is remarkable that Waltz kept such a low profile in Phoenix too, and a valid point to consider. I think this is easy to understand though as it is what he wanted, not far different from many people today that would not care to become famous and spend millions just to have enough to live the way he (or she) wishes without having to worry about money is a reasonable goal.

I agree with you on Helen Corbin's 'Bible' too, it is a great read and isn't 100% BS either just that you need to cross-reference when you start using it to take notes; if you can't find a corroborating source for what is in that book, then it is very likely some of the false materials that were provided to her from what was once a very trusted source. I also agree on what you said about Bob C too, I hope he will relent and leave the book in circulation, maybe add a foreword to it to point out that a master of deception had blended a good deal of BS into it, and after all it is no worse than some of the other books on the market that NO effort was ever made to set the record straight.

You reminded me too that there was rather suspicious incident at Waltz's home in which a man was shot to death with HIS shotgun, and he told the sheriff that he had loaned it to the man who did the shooting and that man fled the scene. Why were these two Mexicans at the home of Waltz in the first place, much less asking to use his shotgun? 8O Perhaps it was not such a well kept secret.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike McChesney wrote:Joe,

Thanks for that. I have been up both East and North Forks more times than I can count, and have only found one or two exploration holes (about 10-20 feet deep). Check your book if you don't mind for a time frame on those hardrock mines. The oldest one I can find mention of was opened in 1870. Most of the mines that I have found mentioned were opened sometime around the turn of the century. It also looks like the NPS is up to their old tricks of removing historical items from maps (mines, trails, and springs) of the area.

........... and now thanks to you, I am going to have do some exploring in some Godforsaken Poison Oak Choked canyons Northeast of there, because while looking into your rememberings, I found mention of two guys that thought they might have found the Lost Padre Mine (with GPS Coords). aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

Mike
Mike,

The book I was thinking of was "Mines of the East Fork" by John W. Robinson. There were both Gold and Silver mines in the area.

Charles Tom Vincent discovered a gold-bearing vein high up in Vincent Gulch which he named the "Big Horn", in 1895. Mining was done in the mountains until after 1941, when the war closure of gold mines shut them down.

A great deal of heavy mining equipment was hauled up into the mountains. Due to the ruggedness of the terrain much of that equipment was never removed. A few 10-stamp mills are mentioned in the book and the Native Son, discovered in 1897, had a 3-stamp mill. Here is one quote from the book:

"Later, after the demise of the Victoria Silver Mine in the main San Gabriel Canyon, the 10-stamp Victoria mill was disassembled and dragged, piece by piece, all the way up the East Fork, through the Narrows, to the Native Son."

Robinson names many of the mines in the San Gabriels, and recounts their history.

That should be enough history to establish the hardrock mining in those mountains. On the other hand, you might want to make a trip up there to take a look at the old ore carts and other mining equipment left behind.

Take care,

Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

You were absolutely right. There are several old hardrock mines in the San Gabriel Mountains. None of them are very close to the East or North Forks of the San Gabriel River. The East Fork is where all the hydraulic mining was done. Access to many of the hardrock mines is restricted due to wilderness areas and road closures. At one time, you could drive to within a couple of miles of some, but now most are a five to ten mile hike (each way). A lot of the narrow canyons are also choked with poison oak and blackberry thorn forests. Only get through after a good burn.

Now the bad part; the earliest mine I can find was discovered in the late 1860s. This is several years after Waltz left the area.

Mike
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

I don't remember that we were discussing dates when hardrock mining in the San Gabrial's was mentioned. Bad memory, so who knows. The only point I was making was there were hardrock mines in those mountains. I never thought I was wrong about that.

While there may not have been much historical mention, I believe the Monte Cristo Gold Mine was probably being worked well before 1867. In relation to something else you mentioned, many old timers believed that mine may have actually been the Lost Padres Mine. As it turns out, the padres were working the San Gabrial Mountains for gold......for many years.

Take care,

Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Re: The Lost Dutchman Mine: Does it exist?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Now Joe,

The Monte Cristo doesn't fit the description of the Lost Padres Mine. The Monte Cristo as we know it didn't get going until the late 1880s. If there was another hardrock mine there prior to that, there is no proof that I know of.

There are another set of very old mines that fit better, and are far more secluded. I have to get out there sometime this Summer.

The conversation about dates started when I first started seeing the San Gabriel Mines. The greatest majority of hardrock mines weren't started until the late 1880s. Before then, it was mostly placer.

Mike
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